Self employed could get welfare safety net - finally!

Uncle Ben

Coveney on radio 1 not exactly selling or promoting this story.

bpmurray

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I often wondered why those who take the ultimate risk of setting up a business were penalised in the form of no welfare safety net whilst there are people in this country who go on the dole at 18 never having worked a day in their lives with no intention of working and are content to stay there as a life style choice. I think this is LONG overdue.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fg-plans-to-give-the-selfemployed-same-dole-as-paye-staff-31095630.html

Hopefully if it comes about this encourages more people to to set up their own business in the knowledge they have something to fall back on other than destitution.

Definitely - I have friends who have worked running their own small business all their lives, paying tax and all the other charges (including water - despite Brendan Ogle's claims, businesses have paid for water for many years). After they were caught by the downturn created by the PAYE miscreants in the banks, their business failed and they have not been covered by any safety net.

doc11

I wonder how many self employed will be happy to be paying the 15-20% prsi of there income(like Paye) each year for a maximum of 7k benefit.

Self employed currently only pay 5% prsi of their manipulated income and can receive the same means tested jobseekers benefits as everyone else along with the state pension, maternity etc.

One of the reasons people go self employed is to avoid the massive prsi burden.

doc11

bpmurray wrote: »

Definitely - I have friends who have worked running their own small business all their lives, paying tax and all the other charges (including water - despite Brendan Ogle's claims, businesses have paid for water for many years). After they were caught by the downturn created by the PAYE miscreants in the banks, their business failed and they have not been covered by any safety net.

was he better of paying 5% vs 15% prsi for a maximum benefit of 7k

Shrap

cormie wrote: »

There's start up schemes and grants available to help anyone with even the most basic of ideas that have potential to turn a profit to give them a kick start. Other avenues such as bank loans are an option. If the banks won't touch you, integrity can play a part with financial help from friends or family. If none of these work, then it might just take a little longer, but it's definitely possible.

kidneyfan wrote: »

No.
There is a scheme called Back to Work Enterprise Allowance that allows people to keep their dole while setting up a business.

Off the dole, it's looking quite impossible at the moment tbh. Some of you may remember me talking about trying to go ahead with a small business this year, but after a meeting with the social welfare, it's looking like too big a risk for me unless this option comes in.

The back to work scheme used to last for 4 years, with the first year at 100% of your dole plus the small grant available for equipment. Over the 4 years this decreased to 25% by yr 4. Sounded do-able. Now, it's a two year scheme with 100% in the first year, 50% in the next and then you're on your own.

I have 2 kids to support and there's no way I'll be able to match 50% of my dole by the 2nd year, as I can't afford the equipment necessary for my business without the grant, so wouldn't be able to hit the ground running, as I had intended.

At the moment, I am NOT ALLOWED to sell my products as I am not self-employed. I AM ALLOWED to work for an employer up to a certain rate per week, but am not allowed to work for myself. I am NOT ALLOWED to become self employed before I start the back to work scheme. This leaves me between a rock and a hard place because I am NOT ALLOWED to create the market for myself or earn the money from it before I'm only given 2 years to be standing on my own two feet and supporting 2 children from it.

Hopefully, this scheme will allow me to become self employed in the meantime, or if not, at least have the safety net in the second year. Preferably I can become self employed now, so I can earn enough to finish my workshop and then apply to the back to work scheme, but I'm not holding my breath. It's pretty disheartening to be working at making my products without being able to sell them, and with the possibility that I could crash and burn in two years, leaving my kids exposed to all the rigmarole that a new claim brings - will have a college student and another teen still at that stage - grants will be up in the air, etc.

Shrap

bjork wrote: »

That's great, will they get free houses too like the baby factories?

You drinking this early in the morning bjork?

Shrap

bjork wrote: »

Good Morning Shrap


No drink, just trying to flesh out the finer details of what this will entail

Calling the likes of me (single parent) a baby factory is hardly supporting your claim here bjork.

Shrap

bjork wrote: »

If the other "baby parent" is dead, then yes, those "single parents" should be supported. Otherwise the two parents should be paying.

Unless you're going to tell me it was a test tube baby out of stem cells with only one parent?

Paying for what? I'm getting a small rate of maintenance, which is promptly halved by the SW. It goes straight into the credit union where it pays off the loan for the re-plumbing and the loan for the workshop. "Should" is a big word bjork. Don't try telling me I "should" be trying harder than I am.

Also, being judgemental about lone parents is of what relevance to the self-employment question?

cormie

Shrap wrote: »

Off the dole, it's looking quite impossible at the moment tbh. Some of you may remember me talking about trying to go ahead with a small business this year, but after a meeting with the social welfare, it's looking like too big a risk for me unless this option comes in.
.........

Is there no option that allows you work for yourself, even for 2/3 days a week, even if it might cut your social for these days? What if you were to come up with another earner that would give you an instant return that wouldn't need as much investment to start so you could be earning money immediately with very little risk and then put the profits after your family expenses towards the saving for equipment?

Seems a disgrace you're "not allowed" do what you mention above. Is there no workaround or compromising with your local social welfare officer?

Shrap

cormie wrote: »

Is there no option that allows you work for yourself, even for 2/3 days a week, even if it might cut your social for these days? What if you were to come up with another earner that would give you an instant return that wouldn't need as much investment to start so you could be earning money immediately with very little risk and then put the profits after your family expenses towards the saving for equipment?

Seems a disgrace you're "not allowed" do what you mention above. Is there no workaround or compromising with your local social welfare officer?

Apparently not. You have to be working for a registered employer in order to be able to earn anything. There is currently no option to be allowed to work for yourself unless you register as self employed, which I am not allowed to do before I apply for the BTW (if that's what I intend - not sure if it's worth it now).

If this new scheme comes in, I'll register as self employed straight away and forget the BTW altogether. That way, I could potentially earn enough that I don't qualify for the cushioned SW payment, but I would have that cushion and could take the risk in starting my business.

I've applied for a meeting with an SW "case worker" to try and hammer this out with them. But yes, it's a disgrace. Myself and a friend wanted to set up a cleaning business years ago, but couldn't do it as we wouldn't be working for registered employers. They don't trust you to be only working the hours you claim to be, you see. It's your word against theirs.

It's no joke even if you ARE employed part time with a registered employer. Care workers are also in the sh1t here, due to the nature of the job. Say you're doing 1 hr in a home, 3 days a week, and 2 hrs on another 3 days. The SW requires you to say how many days you worked and then docks you 6 full days from your dole even though you may only have earned 10 euro for the hour on 3 days and 20 euros for the 2 hours on the other 3. Many carers have been put back on the dole, unable to work under these circumstances.

cillit_bang

I thought the whole idea is that if you are self-employed and you voluntarily pay PRSI, then you get the welfare benefits? Why should you get the welfare benefits for nothing?

The whole idea of the added risk is also the added reward of setting up a business. That is a decision you take, so if you become rich from it, you fully deserve it. That is the game you decide to play. No one forces you to become self-employed.

Shrap

bjork wrote: »

Why should the state pay for you bad decisions?
It would be terrible if you had to sell a few acres to pay for your children :rolleyes::rolleyes:

*Ignores* Had enough of reading your vitriolic, entirely unhelpful and baseless comments.

Shrap

cillit_bang wrote: »

I thought the whole idea is that if you are self-employed and you voluntarily pay PRSI, then you get the welfare benefits? Why should you get the welfare benefits for nothing?

The whole idea of the added risk is also the added reward of setting up a business. That is a decision you take, so if you become rich from it, you fully deserve it. That is the game you decide to play. No one forces you to become self-employed.

You shouldn't get welfare benefits for nothing. You should get SW if you are not in a position to support yourself and your family. Not sure what you mean here.

I would welcome the opportunity to start a business and make it work. There's no way I could take the risk to do this if I think there's any chance I wouldn't be earning enough p/w to support my kids in the same fashion I can now (which is minimal, btw). Nobody IS forcing me to be self employed at all, quite the opposite.

cillit_bang

Shrap wrote: »

You shouldn't get welfare benefits for nothing. You should get SW if you are not in a position to support yourself and your family. Not sure what you mean here.

I would welcome the opportunity to start a business and make it work. There's no way I could take the risk to do this if I think there's any chance I wouldn't be earning enough p/w to support my kids in the same fashion I can now (which is minimal, btw). Nobody IS forcing me to be self employed at all, quite the opposite.

Well the way I understand the social welfare is that a normal PAYE person has to be working a certain time to actually get the dole. So it isnt for nothing, during that whole time that worker would of had to pay PRSI.

I fully agree with you, but you can't make it totally level. This would be a total disincentive for becoming a PAYE employee. If it is made totally level, then a ferocious amount of people would start becoming self-employed. Why become a permanent employee? Just become a contractor, now that you have SW protecting you.

Shrap

cormie wrote: »

What if you were to come up with another earner that would give you an instant return that wouldn't need as much investment to start so you could be earning money immediately with very little risk and then put the profits after your family expenses towards the saving for equipment?

Sorry, didn't reply to this enough! This is exactly what I'm trying to do, but am unable to earn from my products to save for the equipment. Hopefully the SW will allow me to become self employed immediately so I can do this.

OldNotWIse

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This changes not a whole lot then really, because self-employed people were always entitled to social welfare if they became unemployed?

The lower USC is nice, but if those few measures are what they're hoping to be re-elected on after overseeing many self-employed people's businesses going to the wall in the last number of years, they'll be sorely disappointed.

These measures should have been in place years ago to encourage entrepreneurial spirit in Ireland instead of being so focused on HPSU's and FDI. I'd imagine nobody left in business gives a shìt now what relief the Government gives after riding them sideways the last number of years.

Were they??

SEPT 23 1989

cillit_bang wrote: »

Why should you get the welfare benefits for nothing?

Income Tax
VAT generator for the state
Employers contributions for staff
Council Rates
Water Rates

nothing indeed

Shrap

cillit_bang wrote: »

Well the way I understand the social welfare is that a normal PAYE person has to be working a certain time to actually get the dole. So it isnt for nothing, during that whole time that worker would of had to pay PRSI.

I fully agree with you, but you can't make it totally level. This would be a total disincentive for becoming a PAYE employee. If it is made totally level, then a ferocious amount of people would start becoming self-employed. Why become a permanent employee? Just become a contractor, now that you have SW protecting you.

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I don't want to be anyone's employee, I want to be self employed. I'm not looking to level with anybody here except my current one parent family payment. If I drop below that, I can't support my kids, but under the current schemes available, if I don't make the business work to that extent within 2 years then I will have to go back on the dole. I'd be hoping that this safety net would allow me to take the risk with my kid's futures.

Shrap

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Were they??

Only since last year actually.

OldNotWIse

Shrap wrote: »

Only since last year actually.

Thanks, that's what I thought.

Shrap

cillit_bang wrote: »

Just become a contractor, now that you have SW protecting you.

Oh, I see what you're saying now. Actually, that is how a lot of people have ended up on the dole, being contractors with not quite enough work coming in to support themselves. At least these days they can claim for the days they're not working, whereas before it was all or nothing. Either unemployed fully, or contracted fully.

cormie

Shrap wrote: »

Sorry, didn't reply to this enough! This is exactly what I'm trying to do, but am unable to earn from my products to save for the equipment. Hopefully the SW will allow me to become self employed immediately so I can do this.

I was more thinking doing something completely different, even some kind of service etc where you don't need much of an investment at all to start earning and then put the profit towards the eventual plan with your equipment etc?

I'm not sure on the whole "allowed to work" thing, it seems a little absurd, would be interesting to find out for sure. The hour/day thing I know to be true and it's absolutely ridiculous that it's done on a day to day basis so you can lose €30 odd euro social welfare for what could have only been €10 earned that day.

cillit_bang

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Income Tax
VAT generator for the state
Employers contributions for staff
Council Rates
Water Rates

nothing indeed

No it is nothing.

PAYE employees pay the Income tax but also PRSI. If you want to pay that, you get the benefits. Simple.

These rates are the standard business rates!? That has nothing to do with your personal situation, you can not mix them in. Lets say you create a massive company, you still pay these, but now you are the lucky person to have taken the risk but have a massive reward.

Macy0161

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Were they??

Yes - there were entitled to the allowances, which are generally means tested.

Shrap

cormie wrote: »

I was more thinking doing something completely different, even some kind of service etc where you don't need much of an investment at all to start earning and then put the profit towards the eventual plan with your equipment etc?

I'm not sure on the whole "allowed to work" thing, it seems a little absurd, would be interesting to find out for sure. The hour/day thing I know to be true and it's absolutely ridiculous that it's done on a day to day basis so you can lose €30 odd euro social welfare for what could have only been €10 earned that day.

Sounds absurd, is absurd. I used to work as a cleaner, part time, between school hours on a few days a week. I was not allowed to do this, even though I wasn't earning anything even approaching the ceiling you are allowed to earn for a registered employer p/w. So I was earning illegally. If your employer (as a cleaner, just an ordinary household) is not paying your PRSI then you can't be working for them. I couldn't just say to the SW that I worked x,y & z days this week, as my one parent family payment would have been stopped.

OldNotWIse

Macy0161 wrote: »

Yes - there were entitled to the allowances, which are generally means tested.

What do you mean by "the allowances"? As far as I can make out, the class of PRSI they paid exempted them from many.

Tombi!

bjork do not post in this thread again

Effects

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You need some form of capital first or a bloody good idea to sell to an investor otherwise it's highly unlikely a dole recipient could just set up their own business in fairness.

They can, it's called the Back to Work Scheme. They get to keep their dole for 12 months, then 75% for a further 12 months and they can also apply for various grants.

Shrap

Effects wrote: »

They can, it's called the Back to Work Scheme. They get to keep their dole for 12 months, then 75% for a further 12 months and they can also apply for various grants.

It's a 2 year scheme now, cut to 50% in the 2nd year. See my previous posts here.

Carawaystick

OldNotWIse wrote: »

What do you mean by "the allowances"? As far as I can make out, the class of PRSI they paid exempted them from many.

There's jobseekers allowance, meanstested and jobseekers benefit, an insurance payout if you've paid enough prsi contributions.

There's disability allowance, and disability benefit...
etc.