Self employed could get welfare safety net - finally!

Kermit.de.frog

I often wondered why those who take the ultimate risk of setting up a business were penalised in the form of no welfare safety net whilst there are people in this country who go on the dole at 18 never having worked a day in their lives with no intention of working and are content to stay there as a life style choice. I think this is LONG overdue.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fg-plans-to-give-the-selfemployed-same-dole-as-paye-staff-31095630.html

Hopefully if it comes about this encourages more people to to set up their own business in the knowledge they have something to fall back on other than destitution.

Tombi!

Educate me on this. So PAYE gets benefits (basically) depending on how much money they earn? Just like standard means testing.
But if you try to do your own business and do terrible for a few weeks, you're not getting anything from the welfare but the new idea is that both of them can get benefits if they earn under a certain amount of money or something?

The Backwards Man

Woohoo!!

I'd suck off every member of the government cabinet for €188 a week, you PAYE folk don't know you're living.

Tombi!

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Woohoo!!

I'd suck off every member of the government cabinet for €188 a week

Think you have the wrong thread there. :pac:

Kevin McCloud

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Educate me on this. So PAYE gets benefits (basically) depending on how much money they earn? Just like standard means testing.
But if you try to do your own business and do terrible for a few weeks, you're not getting anything from the welfare but the new idea is that both of them can get benefits if they earn under a certain amount of money or something?

Same logic goes for firing out a few children get massive rock and roll, other benefits and a kind slice with €25 repayments per week.

Kermit.de.frog

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Educate me on this. So PAYE gets benefits (basically) depending on how much money they earn? Just like standard means testing.
But if you try to do your own business and do terrible for a few weeks, you're not getting anything from the welfare but the new idea is that both of them can get benefits if they earn under a certain amount of money or something?

I presume it simply means if you set up a business and it fails there is the safety net there. ATM there in no safety net at all. Which is criminal IMO for people who have a good idea, take huge risks and want to do something creative and meaningful.

Tombi!

So if someone on the dole wants to try their hand at making their own business and makes a mess of it, they'd have to open a new claim and go through all the hullabaloo again? That's terrible. I fully support the new policy.

Kermit.de.frog

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Woohoo!!

I'd suck off every member of the government cabinet for €188 a week, you PAYE folk don't know you're living.

There are two points here - the money is important if you fail, but also the whole principle of someone working so hard to set up a business and employ people and grow being effectively penalised and given extra stress with the knowledge that if they fail they face a bleak future because they would not even have 188 a week, they would have nothing.

Kermit.de.frog

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

So if someone on the dole wants to try their hand at making their own business

You need some form of capital first or a bloody good idea to sell to an investor otherwise it's highly unlikely a dole recipient could just set up their own business in fairness.

Kevin McCloud

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You need some form of capital first or a bloody good idea to sell to an investor otherwise it's highly unlikely a dole recipient could just set up their own business in fairness.

What about the partnership schemes where a person gets 50% of their tools bought for them, gets various grants etc for setting up a lawn cutting business or window cleaning?

Kermit.de.frog

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

What about the partnership schemes where a person gets 50% of their tools bought for them, gets various grants etc for setting up a lawn cutting business or window cleaning?

That's all well and good but how many people have been put off setting up a business because they fear the consequences of failure? The dole is not much but it is something like a peace of mind for them to go and actually take that step and start a business.

I think it would be good for them to have that safety net.

Tombi!

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You need some form of capital first or a bloody good idea to sell to an investor otherwise it's highly unlikely a dole recipient could just set up their own business in fairness.

Ah, no. I understand the basic idea of setting it up. I just meant that normally, AFAIK, if you do go belly up after getting off the dole, you don't need to open a brand new claim which can take months.

Kevin McCloud

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

That's all well and good but how many people have been put off setting up a business because they fear the consequences of failure? The dole is not much but it is something like a peace of mind for them to go and actually take that step and start a business.

I think it would be good for them to have that safety net.

You are giving me a politicians answer there, you said one would need some form of capital first or a bloody good idea to sell to set up their own business to which its not.

Arsemageddon

Four years into this government and they finally do something for the self employed. It's both long overdue and welcome, but they can go fvck themselves if they think this is going to make me vote for them.

Kermit.de.frog

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

You are giving me a politicians answer there, you said one would need some form of capital first or a bloody good idea to sell to set up their own business to which its not.

Where is the other 50% start up costs going to come from? That's the capital they would need under your assumptions.

I am not wrong, I am absolutely right. In this country, make no mistake, entrepreneurs are punished and not encouraged at an early stage.

FloatingVoter

Does this mean they're going to make me self-employed ?

Children, the mushroom picking is legit and we'll need labels and grants and whathavesya ?

We'll put a roof on the cottage and move back there from our Virginian estates.

Bongalongherb

This is a great implementation indeed without doubt, and should have been this way from day one for the self employed... excellent news.

But this implementation is solely on purpose regarding votes. It's the same strategy used before every election to curry the folk...

Kermit.de.frog

Bongalongherb wrote: »

This is a great implementation indeed without doubt, and should have been this way from day one for the self employed... excellent news.

But this implementation is solely on purpose regarding votes. It's the same strategy used before every election to curry the folk...

And what's the alternative?

Sinn Féin?

What do you reckon they would do for the self employed? We already know they would kill them with tax and this economy.

So where else do you go?

cormie

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You need some form of capital first or a bloody good idea to sell to an investor otherwise it's highly unlikely a dole recipient could just set up their own business in fairness.

I'd disagree, anyone with a drive to get themselves set up can do it, it may take a while, but it's certainly possible. You may have to start off small and build yourself up, but there's plenty of opportunities out there with a very low investment requisite that can go towards the creation of something much bigger.

There's start up schemes and grants available to help anyone with even the most basic of ideas that have potential to turn a profit to give them a kick start. Other avenues such as bank loans are an option. If the banks won't touch you, integrity can play a part with financial help from friends or family. If none of these work, then it might just take a little longer, but it's definitely possible.

This change is welcome, albeit very late. Hopefully no more stories like my friends dad who had a successful business, employing 13 people which went bust. The 13 people all got their welfare immediately yet the owner who set it all up, gave these 13 people a living for years, paid all sums of taxes, VAT and rates and took all the risk and the weight of the business on his shoulders was left with absolutely nothing.

One eyed Jack

This changes not a whole lot then really, because self-employed people were always entitled to social welfare if they became unemployed?

The lower USC is nice, but if those few measures are what they're hoping to be re-elected on after overseeing many self-employed people's businesses going to the wall in the last number of years, they'll be sorely disappointed.

These measures should have been in place years ago to encourage entrepreneurial spirit in Ireland instead of being so focused on HPSU's and FDI. I'd imagine nobody left in business gives a shìt now what relief the Government gives after riding them sideways the last number of years.

Bongalongherb

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

And what's the alternative?

Sinn Féin?

What do you reckon they would do for the self employed? We already know they would kill them with tax and this economy.

So where else do you go?

We do not know what effect Sinn Féin will have as a government in order.

I will agree to an extent of wonder and worry as to Sinn Féin running the show, as we all know the tactics involved to get votes and the lies all government parties and also independents will allow themselves to ingratiate themselves to their own agenda rather than the betterment of its citizens.

I really don't know who is the better bet for government, but I do know who isn't... i.e - Labour/FG. It's a worrying situation when we have a limited choice regarding fakers/lier's.

The election is a while off yet, but in the mean-time Labour and FG are rolling out sweeteners to relax the folk, and as such will eventually indoctrinate the folk to agree with their brainwashing sailing forward.

A clear mind and focus will see through their lies again as they can lie for a hundred years, but when it comes to an ad nauseam state of drool as we have seen in the past especially from Labour then we know we have to pick/give a chance for independents.

Break it up, and in time we might just accomplish an independent collective of folk that want to put the Irish citizen first before the corruption.

kneemos

Why haven't the self employed lobbied for this instead of whinging about it if it's so important to them?

mickstupp

kneemos wrote: »

Why haven't the self employed lobbied for this instead of whinging about it if it's so important to them?

Why are you assuming they haven't? Do you believe the government have the best interests of the citizens in mind? Nah.

I hope this extends to families of those who are self-employed too, or at least makes things a little easier for them. When I first went to college I was unable to get a grant due to my dad being self-employed. Surrounded by people bitching cause they couldn't afford things, while holding a fag in one hand and an O'Brien's coffee in the other. Plenty of students can't get grants or a back to education allowance simply because they live with a self-employed parent.

CiDeRmAn

Regarding the OP, good news.
I work in the public sector but my best mate is self employed.
While I have built in protection in my work place he died not and, during the lean years, had to make massive changes and family affecting choices just to keep his head above water.
Not only this but there were months and years where the next mortgage payment was not guaranteed, and a safety net would have at least given some security had it all gone down the pan, as it could easily have done.

Bongalongherb

kneemos wrote: »

Why haven't the self employed lobbied for this instead of whinging about it if it's so important to them?

Are you serious ?. Many self employed folk tried their best to make things work for themselves and their employees, but when their business failed for whatever reason they were ostracised from eligibility regarding the social welfare, and that was, and still is wrong. They should have had priority.

Just imagine spending years and your own money trying to build your company/business and then it falls to the ground like a small comet explosion and no-where to receive relief ?.

It's about time that these self employed folk got some relief, a bit late for some though, but nonetheless its a good start for these folk.

Geuze

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I often wondered why those who take the ultimate risk of setting up a business were penalised in the form of no welfare safety net whilst there are people in this country who go on the dole at 18 never having worked a day in their lives with no intention of working and are content to stay there as a life style choice. I think this is LONG overdue.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fg-plans-to-give-the-selfemployed-same-dole-as-paye-staff-31095630.html

Hopefully if it comes about this encourages more people to to set up their own business in the knowledge they have something to fall back on other than destitution.

Please note that self-employed people can apply for JSA "dole" in the exact same way as anybody else.

Newspapers may keep saying that self-employed people can't get the dole, but they can.

They can apply for JSA the same as any other unemployed worker.

Now, as they have paid just 4% PRSI, instead of the 4%+10.75% paid on behalf of employees, then they are not entitled to JSB.

Obviously, if you don't pay enough insurance premium, you won't be insured.

I suggest that self-employed workers be allowed pay full PRSI, and then extend JSB to cover them.

Geuze

cormie wrote: »

This change is welcome, albeit very late. Hopefully no more stories like my friends dad who had a successful business, employing 13 people which went bust. The 13 people all got their welfare immediately yet the owner who set it all up, gave these 13 people a living for years, paid all sums of taxes, VAT and rates and took all the risk and the weight of the business on his shoulders was left with absolutely nothing.

Note that the workers here were insured, after paying 4% + 10.75% PRSI, so they would receive JSB for 9 months.

Do the self-employed want to increase their PRSI insurance payments from 4% to 14.75% so they can be insured against unemployment, and receive 9 months JSB?

kidneyfan

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

So if someone on the dole wants to try their hand at making their own business and makes a mess of it, they'd have to open a new claim and go through all the hullabaloo again? That's terrible. I fully support the new policy.

No.
There is a scheme called Back to Work Enterprise Allowance that allows people to keep their dole while setting up a business.

Geuze

kneemos wrote: »

Why haven't the self employed lobbied for this instead of whinging about it if it's so important to them?

It may be because they may want to receive JSB, but they don't want to pay 14.75% PRSI, which is an extra 10.75% on top of what is currently paid?

kidneyfan

Everyone is and always has been entitled to pay himself as an employee rather than as a company director.

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Are you serious ?. Many self employed folk tried their best to make things work for themselves and their employees, but when their business failed for whatever reason they were ostracised from eligibility regarding the social welfare, and that was, and still is wrong. They should have had priority.

Just imagine spending years and your own money trying to build your company/business and then it falls to the ground like a small comet explosion and no-where to receive relief ?.

It's about time that these self employed folk got some relief, a bit late for some though, but nonetheless its a good start for these folk.

Uncle Ben

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I often wondered why those who take the ultimate risk of setting up a business were penalised in the form of no welfare safety net whilst there are people in this country who go on the dole at 18 never having worked a day in their lives with no intention of working and are content to stay there as a life style choice. I think this is LONG overdue.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fg-plans-to-give-the-selfemployed-same-dole-as-paye-staff-31095630.html

Hopefully if it comes about this encourages more people to to set up their own business in the knowledge they have something to fall back on other than destitution.

Election looming and FG decides to 'examine' the possibility. I remember in the far off distant past prior to an election the same party promising universal health care. Dream on suckers. As Phat Bunny would say, 'you tend to say these things prior to an election '.