Reputable places to get Puppy

The Bishop Basher

fiounnalbe wrote: »

So theyre obviously not really good purebreds which leads me once again to the conclusion of - ireland doesnt need them, so please dont breed them.

Not everyone wants purebreds and all the problems associated with them.

fiounnalbe wrote: »

Id love if Ireland brought in a ban on breeding dogs unless the Owners were on the IKC approved breeders lists. It would really answer alot of problems with dog over population that we have. And would get rid of that fake club canine ireland or whatever it is.

Are you on the IKC approved breeders list by any chance ? And how do you ban dogs from breeding ? Tongue in cheek I know but seriously, it's not something you can just ban. It will happen regardless. I'm not condoning it but lets work with reality.

borderlinemeath

Swanner wrote: »

Agreed. You'll certainly find these people on there. Along with the many responsible dog owners / lovers and breeders selling happy and healthy pups and dogs. It's all about balance of which your statement above shows none.

Why show balance when I have never encountered it?

That's awful and nobody condones this behavior. I'm not sure what your point is though. As stated earlier in the thread, not all "reputable breeders" have the dogs interest as a priority either. Point is, buyer beware.

I gave my experience of Donedeal in reply to yours where your anecdotal evidence is that your dogs are healthy and happy yet came through DD.

But there is. And there will always be unscrupulous people looking to make a fast buck. Being registered with the IKC doesn't magically make everything OK. In fact it's regularly used to give a sheen of respectability. Once again, buyer beware.

It's a safeguard, that many, many users on the likes of DD don't use, or claim that the pups will be registered and never do. Advertising the pup as "will make great pets" and when the interested parties come to view the pups they play down the registration as not needed if the dogs won't be shown. But it does open the door for overbreeding as the IKC will not allow multiple registrations from the same bitch in more than a year.

I think most people are broadly in agreement here. I would love to see proper legislation to allow prosecution of those found involved in puppy farming. Mandatory health testing would also be beneficial although I would be interested to see some data around the success of this as it doesn't in any way guarantee a healthy animal. I'm amazed that the pet insurance companies don't already demand it. Maybe they know more then we do. Regardless we all want what's best for the dogs.

I just don't agree with the often expressed militant view on here that Done Deal = Puppy Farm. A little more balance to the discussion would allow people make a more informed decision. There are plenty of great pups for sale on Done Deal. I have 2 fully grown, happy and healthy examples looking at me as I type this.

I haven't expressed that view, I agree that it's one avenue for puppy farmers, but mainly for back yard breeders who haven't got the first clue of what they're doing. Like I said previously, two dogs of the same breed does not necessarily make a happy healthy litter. If they both carry the same genetic health problems and/or undesirable behavioural problems then these will be most likely passed on to their offspring. Back yard breeders don't offer back up to new owners, and many try and offload their pups at 5/6 weeks because they don't know any better, or they don't want to have the puppy food outlay eat into their profit. I think the majority of ads on DD are the bybs and people think that's ok because it's not a run down dirty shed full of breeding bitches and their litters, so they walk away confident that they haven't been to a puppy farm but the resultant pups can be just as unhealthy because the research or the money wasn't put into the bitch and the sire.

It's great that your dogs are happy and healthy. But from my point of view, I meet so many that are not, I meet many dogs that have behavioural issues and/or health issues. I sometimes recognise the symptoms and their owners don't even know it (eg skin or digestive issues), they may have spotted the symptoms but didn't even know they were problems.

muddypaws

Lemlin wrote: »

In relation to "I can't understand why one dog would be worth less than another" - Why would I need a link to prove this? A dog won Crufts last week. How much is it going to be worth? Of course it is easy for one dog to be worth more than another. There are a number of factors that come into consideration in terms of the value of dogs - breed, defects, temperament, lineage to name but a few.

hehe, you've just proved your own point is wrong. The dog that won Crufts will undoubtedly now be worth more than a dog that was also shown at Crufts but didn't win

Lemlin wrote: »

As I've said, my friend is keeping three of the pups (the best 3 in his opinion) for six months. At that stage, he will make his decision based on a number of factors for that particular breed - I'm not a person who attends shows and don't claim to be so I wouldn't know what these factors are. In his opinion, he then can't expect people to pay as much for the pups he does not keep as ones that were ordered, the ones he sold when they were 8 weeks old or the ones he is keeping. He has kept them and warranted them not fit for the purpose of showing. He did tell me his children often ask how he does it (having spent sometimes 3 hours a day with these pups until they are six months) but, in his words, after twenty years of showing he sees dogs as a commodity.

In relation to your story about the Alaskan Malamute, why would your friend's dog be worth less - Because she has no show titles. If one of her sister's wins a number of shows, which set of pups would be worth more? If both dogs were sold in the morning, would your friends "pet" garner a higher price or a dog that "trots around a show ring"? I'd imagine even having the dog trained to trot around a show ring has some monetary value as it is a form of training.

Wrong. A lot of people would pay more for a dog from a working breed having working titles, rather than show ones. Which is why alaskan huskies can cost more than siberian huskies.

Lemlin wrote: »

Interesting that you ask for articles and links. I see very few others providing articles and links for any points they have made. You've made a huge number of points yourself above without links to back them up so I'm surprised you request same from others. You've used anecdotal evidence and I have also.

I used anecdotal evidence because you did, see, its easy isn't it, just because your friend does or says something, doesn't mean its true. Your friend sounds like a really nice person.

ETA: We aren't allowed to post links to selling sites, but if you go and have a look for cavachons, goldendoodles, labradoodles, you will find they cost more than most IKC registered dogs which can be shown, and even those that have show champions in their bloodlines that are for sale. Yet none of those dogs can be shown.

Knine

Actually dogs with Show Titles are very difficult to buy. Most people won't sell them. It costs a hell of a lot of money to Show Title a dog.

Alaskan Malamutes are a different breed to a Siberian Husky hence different prices. It costs more to breed them too as they are a bigger breed. Unless you mean the working non recognised type of sled dog?

fiounnalbe

Swanner wrote: »

Not everyone wants purebreds and all the problems associated with them.



Are you on the IKC approved breeders list by any chance ? And how do you ban dogs from breeding ? Tongue in cheek I know but seriously, it's not something you can just ban. It will happen regardless. I'm not condoning it but lets work with reality.

If you dont want a purebred, go to a pound and pick a mongrel. If you want a purebred but one with less chance of problems get a registered breeder one.

No I am not on the list. I own 5 beautiful mongrels all from pounds and shelters. I have never bred a bitch in my life nor will I ever as I do not want to contribute to our alarming overpopulation of dogs. Personally im not into purebred dogs and will never buy one, but I do think its a shame if some good lines and breeds died out which is why I never have any problem with responsible breeding of dogs nor with people who love a certain breed and buy one responsibly.

Other countries have put bans on breeding in the past I believe, so I think it can be done, however there is so much else wrong with Ireland I doubt its top priority.

223vmax

Knine wrote: »

What was the parents hip scores?

Dam...Score 5 both sides. Score 0 on elbows. I can PM a photocopy of the cert if you please?

Sire Score 3 & 2. Score 0 for elbows.

cruizer101

andreac wrote: »

Back yard breeder so. These people are not reputable breeders. No reputable breeder breeds mongrels.
But she would have made a profit by breeding a litter of pups this way as no health checks etc would have been in place.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this, I havn't read through the whole thread so maybe it has been discussed, and maybe it is really a topic for another thread.

But the fact of the matter is dog breeds are something created by humans by inbreeding dogs with certain traits. This has gone to the extreme of kings charles having skulls to small for their brains, german shepherds being bred to have unnatural hips, bulldogs having to be delivered by caesarian the majority of the time.

Yes these are extremes, and breed clubs do their best to encourage breeding of only healthy individuals but that doesn't mean you can get away from the fact that the genetic manipulation of dogs by humans has led to dogs that are far less healthy.

Mongrels on the other hand are far more natural have a mix of a wide variety of genes leading to far healthier dogs. I would much rather a well bred mongrel than a purebred. Now I am in no way condoning every Tom Dick and Harry breeding their dogs but what is wrong with two healthy dogs of different breeds producing healthy offspring other than the vanity of humans trying to pigeonhole dogs into specific breeds.

borderlinemeath

cruizer101 wrote: »

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this, I havn't read through the whole thread so maybe it has been discussed, and maybe it is really a topic for another thread.

But the fact of the matter is dog breeds are something created by humans by inbreeding dogs with certain traits. This has gone to the extreme of kings charles having skulls to small for their brains, german shepherds being bred to have unnatural hips, bulldogs having to be delivered by caesarian the majority of the time.

Yes these are extremes, and breed clubs do their best to encourage breeding of only healthy individuals but that doesn't mean you can get away from the fact that the genetic manipulation of dogs by humans has led to dogs that are far less healthy.

Mongrels on the other hand are far more natural have a mix of a wide variety of genes leading to far healthier dogs. I would much rather a well bred mongrel than a purebred. Now I am in no way condoning every Tom Dick and Harry breeding their dogs but what is wrong with two healthy dogs of different breeds producing healthy offspring other than the vanity of humans trying to pigeonhole dogs into specific breeds.

The assumption that a mongrel or a cross breed is healthier is a myth. It all depends on parentage. Be that pure bred or cross. The parents can be just as unhealthy if not unhealthier, as they are allowed to breed randomly and without any health on genetic checks.

That said, I'm absolutely against certain breeds that have been mutated from their original purpose, any brachycephalic breed such as the boxer or bulldog or pug need to be managed - the fact that dogs are bred with flat faces and little or no nose is disgusting in my opinion. Every mammal needs air to breathe and these breeds are struggling with the most fundamental need to live. It's not just the breeders that are to blame, the people who want to own these breeds and are popularising them are just as bad. One of my neighbours used to own boxers and it was heartbreaking for them, they couldn't cope with the short lifespan and the health issues, now they have a doberman and can't believe that they barely have to visit the vet for a yearly check up as they were the vets best customers for years previously with heart and skin complaints with their boxers.

Edit: Just on cross breeds and the problems that can occur - "cavachons" , "puggles" and "labradoodles" are some of the most popular mongrels sold on Donedeal. There is no thought for the health and welfare of these crosses, cavs as you've mentioned have multiple issues, from syringomyelia to heart issues to joint issues, and they are bred with bichons, rife with digestive and skin issues. As for the puggle - crossing a dog like a pug with breathing issues with a dog that has the drive of the beagle is insane, and EVERY light skinned labradoodle I've met has skin or digestive issues, it's rife within them. Donedeal facilitates this type of indiscriminate cross breeding and normalises it so the lay person does not know the difference. It's sickening tbh.

Lemlin

muddypaws wrote: »

hehe, you've just proved your own point is wrong. The dog that won Crufts will undoubtedly now be worth more than a dog that was also shown at Crufts but didn't win

I think you're getting confused here. Your original point was "I can't understand why one dog would be worth less than another". My point was that of course some dogs are worth more or less than others. I don't see how you could think I have proven my point wrong by me stating that a dog from Crufts is worth more than others? If anything, you have just proved that your own point is wrong - you've just illustrated yourself why one dog would be worth less than another so what is there for you not to understand?

muddypaws wrote: »

Wrong. A lot of people would pay more for a dog from a working breed having working titles, rather than show ones. Which is why alaskan huskies can cost more than siberian huskies.

Apologies, I didn't read your point correctly. Of course your friend's dog is worth a lot as it has working titles. Any dog with showing or working titles is worth more than a "common pet". My point is that dogs with titles, be they showing or working, are worth more than a common pet so you are agreeing with my point.

muddypaws wrote: »

I used anecdotal evidence because you did, see, its easy isn't it, just because your friend does or says something, doesn't mean its true. Your friend sounds like a really nice person.

ETA: We aren't allowed to post links to selling sites, but if you go and have a look for cavachons, goldendoodles, labradoodles, you will find they cost more than most IKC registered dogs which can be shown, and even those that have show champions in their bloodlines that are for sale. Yet none of those dogs can be shown.

I have no problem with you using anecdotal evidence. What I was pointing to is that when I used anecdotal evidence you asked for links and articles - I find it amusing that someone would be blinkered enough to assume they can use anecdotal evidence themselves yet request links and evidence from others. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, in other words.

Re Donedeal and the crossbreds, I've just gone to DD and used the search function. Cavachons range in price from €180 to €300. There are no goldendoodles and its not even a crossbreed I have ever heard of. Labradoodles range in price from €65 to €500. The ones at €500 seem to be at an extreme price. These dogs are priced because there is a market for them. Its simple supply and demand to be honest. I know two well educated and articulate young ladies that were given all the information in the world regarding dogs and research yet drove from Meath to Laois and bought two Cavachons, paying €300 each. While it wouldn't be my thing and I and others tried to change their minds, the dogs are now five years old and neither have had any health issues. In fact, one of the girls has bought a second Cavachon as a companion through DD and, again, has had no problems. Of course, I have plenty of horror stories from DD also but its not all the Nightmare on Elm Street-scenario that can be painted by some. I also know a girl that bought a purebred pup with both parents fully health tested etc. and she has ended up paying over £2000 in various vet fees. I know of another person that got a dog through a breed club recommended breeder and the pup isn't even 18 months and has had hip problems and surgery. The father was hip tested but the mother was not so, I'd ask the question, why were that breed club giving out this breeder's details? That person paid €650 for this pup.

There are horror stories from both sides of the fence and that is why some balance is needed. I also have one good story regarding crossbreds. I know of a mother who looked for over 12 months for a Pug for her daughter. It was the dog her daughter wanted and she had been told they were fantastic with kids. However, the price for one even on Donedeal at the time was about €800. She contacted various rescues and animal homes and a Pug could not be sourced, or even an adequate crossbreed. She looked at some jugs on both DD and in homes but they were too Jack Russell in appearance and traits for her liking and, as many would say, her daughter was only 8 so she did not want a terrier-type pup that may end up nippy with kids. Eventually she found a Pug cross on DD. It cost her €300 which was the fraction of the cost of a Pug. I have seen this dog and it is a Pug in all but its colour as it is spotted. It is a fantastic dog with her child so, as I said, these crossbreds pups are there because there is a market and I would state that most cost less than a purebreed IKC registered dog would.

MrWalsh

Lemlin wrote: »

There are horror stories from both sides of the fence and that is why some balance is needed.

But there are far far more horror stories from the DD side of the fence than from the legitimate breeder side of the fence.

The risk of ending up with a puppy farmed dog and thus contributing to the industry is still the biggest issue.

So what if someone gets a dog from Done Deal that doesnt have health issues - the fact is that they have supported a site that facilitates the sale of puppy farmed and back yard bred dogs. As long as people support this method of getting a dog then these practices find it easier to continue.

Lemlin

MrWalsh wrote: »

But there are far far more horror stories from the DD side of the fence than from the legitimate breeder side of the fence.

The risk of ending up with a puppy farmed dog and thus contributing to the industry is still the biggest issue.

So what if someone gets a dog from Done Deal that doesnt have health issues - the fact is that they have supported a site that facilitates the sale of puppy farmed and back yard bred dogs. As long as people support this method of getting a dog then these practices find it easier to continue.

I agree totally with your points but perhaps it's time that legitimate breeders registered with breed clubs lowered their prices a bit. As I've said, I can't see how someone with 7-8 Labrador pups that is charging €600 a pup is not making a profit.

I'm sorry to be raising the point again but for me overpricing is the issue driving people to DD. The DD market is mainly there because some people want a purebred pup but cannot afford €600 or more for one.

ShaShaBear

I hope this isn't out of place for me to say, but it's the best analogy for DoneDeal puppy buying I could come up with.

If you smoke cigarettes and don't get cancer, does that mean smoking does not cause cancer, or does it mean you were lucky to have avoided it? Will someone see you smoking and be influenced, and decide to take it up as well? Will they end up getting cancer even though you didn't?

ShaShaBear

Lemlin wrote: »

I agree totally with your points but perhaps it's time that legitimate breeders registered with breed clubs lowered their prices a bit. As I've said, I can't see how someone with 7-8 Labrador pups that is charging €600 a pup is not making a profit.

I'm sorry to be raising the point again but for me overpricing is the issue driving people to DD. The DD market is mainly there because some people want a purebred pup but cannot afford €600 or more for one.

And how exactly do you suggest someone who cannot afford €600 for the pup pays for the health expenses of a dog? We were given Opie for free as we volunteered for a rescue and we were put in touch. His neutering, microchipping and vaccinations came to €120 - and that is all bog-standard expenses. We weren't entitled to any reprieve, despite both of us being unemployed. If we "couldn't afford" €600 to buy Opie as, say, a purebred, how could we hope to afford to pay for treatment for a broken leg, removal of a blockage, chemotherapy, etc.

223vmax

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I hope this isn't out of place for me to say, but it's the best analogy for DoneDeal puppy buying I could come up with.

If you smoke cigarettes and don't get cancer, does that mean smoking does not cause cancer, or does it mean you were lucky to have avoided it? Will someone see you smoking and be influenced, and decide to take it up as well? Will they end up getting cancer even though you didn't?

Are you implying that every puppy sold on done deal is from questionable background?

MrWalsh

Lemlin wrote: »

The DD market is mainly there because some people want a purebred pup but cannot afford €600 or more for one.

Perhaps people shouldnt buy what they cant afford?

ShaShaBear

223vmax wrote: »

Are you implying that every puppy sold on done deal is from questionable background?

What I am saying is that just because one purchased dog appears healthy, does NOT mean that all of them are safe. Just because Joe's dog lived to 14 and died of old age, doesn't mean that Betty's pup from the same mother and father who were bred again because all the pups were sold last time doesn't end up with crippling hip dysplasia.

The fact is, people selling puppies on DoneDeal are all strangers, and you have to take them at their word and make your own mind up on what you believe. So yes, they are all from a questionable background. Unless you have irrefutable proof that what the seller tells you is true, you cannot guarantee that they not are lying to you in some way. The only question is, will that lie be at the expense of the dog's health and happiness?

223vmax

ShaShaBear wrote: »

What I am saying is that just because one purchased dog appears healthy, does NOT mean that all of them are safe. Just because Joe's dog lived to 14 and died of old age, doesn't mean that Betty's pup from the same mother and father who were bred again because all the pups were sold last time doesn't end up with crippling hip dysplasia.

The fact is, people selling puppies on DoneDeal are all strangers, and you have to take them at their word and make your own mind up on what you believe. So yes, they are all from a questionable background. Unless you have irrefutable proof that what the seller tells you is true, you cannot guarantee that they not are lying to you in some way. The only question is, will that lie be at the expense of the dog's health and happiness?

Right so some dogs on DD are perfectly fine to buy while some aren't. What's your point?

ShaShaBear

223vmax wrote: »

Right so some dogs on DD are perfectly fine to buy while some aren't. What's your point?

I already made my point. I take it you didn't read my previous posts on this thread then.

223vmax

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I already made my point. I take it you didn't read my previous posts on this thread then.

Yes I read the thread but some dogs on DD are fine to buy - agree?

ShaShaBear

223vmax wrote: »

Yes I read the thread but some dogs on DD are fine to buy - agree?

That's my point. I already made that. I already said that some dogs are perfectly fine. But the problem is the general public probably do not know how to tell the difference. And, more often than not (with real-life experiences documented in this very forum), people ignore our advice on how to go about it and end up making a horrific mistake.

A woman once came on here after buying a dog that was riddled with fleas and worms and didn't realise it wasn't the sex she picked until she got it home. This is AFTER we advised her of many things, including NOT to meet someone at the side of the road, which she did anyway.

The problem with DoneDeal, just like the problem with overbreeding for profit, is people.

andreac

223vmax wrote: »

Yes I read the thread but some dogs on DD are fine to buy - agree?

Very few to be honest.

I happened to have a look on DD yesterday at the breed i own, Rottweilers.

There were 33 ads in total for Rotties and not one of those ad's mention Health tests :rolleyes:

So, there would not be one dog or puppy that would be suitable to buy by looking at those ads, and that is only 1 breed that is advertised.

223vmax

ShaShaBear wrote: »

That's my point. I already made that. I already said that some dogs are perfectly fine. But the problem is the general public probably do not know how to tell the difference. And, more often than not (with real-life experiences documented in this very forum), people ignore our advice on how to go about it and end up making a horrific mistake.

A woman once came on here after buying a dog that was riddled with fleas and worms and didn't realise it wasn't the sex she picked until she got it home. This is AFTER we advised her of many things, including NOT to meet someone at the side of the road, which she did anyway.

The problem with DoneDeal, just like the problem with overbreeding for profit, is people.

Yes that is a trait of humans. People go against better judgment and do their own thing anyway even though they have a bad feeling about something.

MrWalsh

223vmax wrote: »

Yes I read the thread but some dogs on DD are fine to buy - agree?

There is no way of discerning which few dogs may or may not be ok among the hundreds and hundreds of ads for dogs that may not be.

But its irrelevant if 1 dog or 2 dogs or 100 dogs are fine on DD - the fact remains that it is a site that facilitates the sale of puppy farmed and back yard bred dogs and as long as people support this method of getting a dog then these practices find it easier to continue.

223vmax

andreac wrote: »

Very few to be honest.

I happened to have a look on DD yesterday at the breed i own, Rottweilers.

There were 33 ads in total for Rotties and not one of those ad's mention Health tests :rolleyes:

So, there would not be one dog or puppy that would be suitable to buy by looking at those ads, and that is only 1 breed that is advertised.

Very few people are prepared to buy a health certified IKC reg dog for huge money, but they are prepared to buy a non health certified, IKC registered dog for €250-€350. That's general demand and supply and not DD fault. It is what it is. If you're in the market for a health certified IKC reg dog for big money, you're not going to buy it off DD.

andreac

223vmax wrote: »

Very few people are prepared to buy a health certified IKC reg dog for huge money, but they are prepared to buy a non health certified, IKC registered dog for €250-€350. That's general demand and supply and not DD fault. It is what it is.

I think you are missing my point?

My point being, there were 33 ads for Rotties yesterday, none of which spoke of health tests, so it would be my opinion that DD is not a good place to go and source a pedigree pup, the whole point of this thread?

Title of this thread is: Reputable places to buy a pup. Of which my opinion is DD is not a reputable place, hence my findings for a breed that i own.

Lemlin

MrWalsh wrote: »

Perhaps people shouldnt buy what they cant afford?

That's the problem though - they are going to DD to buy their dog because they can't afford it. As I've said, I fail to see how some breeders can claim they aren't making a profit from the pups they are selling.

Lower the price and it will help mend the issue. High prices are only fuelling the DD market.

andreac

Lemlin wrote: »

That's the problem though - they are going to DD to buy their dog because they can't afford it. As I've said, I fail to see how some breeders can claim they aren't making a profit from the pups they are selling.

Lower the price and it will help mend the issue. High prices are only fuelling the DD market.

No they arent, back yard breeders are fueling the market with cheap, badly bred pups.

If you cant afford 600 or whatever now, then save for longer and wait until you do have the money, its not rocket science :rolleyes:

I waited 28 years to get my Rottweiler, until i was in a position to buy a well bred one and one that i could afford.
So whats the issue waiting an extra few months and putting money aside until you can afford one? Its not 1000's you need, only an extra couple of hundred.

223vmax

andreac wrote: »

I think you are missing my point?

My point being, there were 33 ads for Rotties yesterday, none of which spoke of health tests, so it would be my opinion that DD is not a good place to go and source a pedigree pup, the whole point of this thread?

Title of this thread is: Reputable places to buy a pup. Of which my opinion is DD is not a reputable place, hence my findings for a breed that i own.

How can you expect DD sellers to have health cert for dogs for the prices they're asking? You can buy an IKC reg pup of DD for approx €300. You can buy a health certified IKC pup from top dogs for €600 and above. Not everyone has €600 to spend on a pup or is willing to spend €600 on a pup. Is your opinion that they shouldn't have the right to buy the €300 pup?

MrWalsh

223vmax wrote: »

How can you expect DD sellers to have health cert for dogs for the prices they're asking? You can buy an IKC reg pup of DD for approx €300. You can buy a health certified IKC pup from top dogs for €600 and above. Not everyone has €600 to spend on a pup. Is your opinion that they shouldn't have the right to buy the €300 pup?

Yes, that is my opinion.

Lemlin

ShaShaBear wrote: »

And how exactly do you suggest someone who cannot afford €600 for the pup pays for the health expenses of a dog? We were given Opie for free as we volunteered for a rescue and we were put in touch. His neutering, microchipping and vaccinations came to €120 - and that is all bog-standard expenses. We weren't entitled to any reprieve, despite both of us being unemployed. If we "couldn't afford" €600 to buy Opie as, say, a purebred, how could we hope to afford to pay for treatment for a broken leg, removal of a blockage, chemotherapy, etc.

Add €120 to €300 and you are still a long way from €600. Add it to the €600 you have already paid for the pup and you are at €720. Regarding the vet costs, there are payment plans available with most vets. You are also talking about extreme injuries. Have you any stats for what percentage of dogs suffer broken legs, chemotherapy? I would imagine it’s the minority. A pup I sold previously, as I've said on here, suffered a shattered shoulder from an unfortunate car accident. The entire vetinary bills for amputating the leg came to €200, that included x-rays and the surgery and check up after, plus keeping the dog overnight. That is still nowhere near €600.