What are the differences between ISIS and the IRA?

LeeMajors

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Unless you were one of the many innocent people they murdered right?

How many innocent people do you think the brit army have murdered in their numerous wars on people over the years?
Iraq for example.
A war that the UN described as 'illegal'.

Timberrrrrrrr

LeeMajors wrote: »

Well, I think this,

"And on the other side of that fence was the Irish collusion with the IRA who had no problem killing innocent civilians;)"

in reply to this,

"One can fairly and squarely complain about the British collusion with loyalists when 80 odd percent of those killed were completely innocent civilians"

would suggest you believe there was brit collusion with loyalist terrorists.


Unless you're backtracking of course

of course i'm not, There was obviously elements of both governments that colluded with both sides.

Timberrrrrrrr

LeeMajors wrote: »

How many innocent people do you think the brit army have killed in their numerous wars on people over the years?
Iraq for example.

I don't know, why don't you get me the numbers and we can crunch them. Fwiw i have never condoned the actions of any armies in Iraq or Afghanistan so you may need to find a different tree to bark up

Eugene Norman

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

of course i'm not, There was obviously elements of both governments that colluded with both sides.

Actually there are very few terrorist organisations that are pro-status quo. You generally get terrorists who want to change the system. When a terrorist group exists to maintain the state it's probably funded by the state or an arm of it.

LeeMajors

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I don't know, why don't you get me the numbers and we can crunch them. Fwiw i have never condoned the actions of any armies in Iraq or Afghanistan so you may need to find a different tree to bark up

A study in 'The Lancet' suggests that 116,000 civilians were killed in Iraq, in an illegal war, by US and brit forces over 10 years.

How many civilians did the PIRA kill over 30 years?
Here's the figure, 512.
No defending it, but still, 512 over 30 years.

29.9% of people killed by the PIRA were civilians.
85.43% of people killed by loyalists were civilians, or 868 people.

LeeMajors

June to October 2014.
ISIS have killed over 5,500 civilians in Iraq alone, according to The New York Times.

Who actually started this ridiculous thread comparing the PIRA to ISIS?

Timberrrrrrrr

LeeMajors wrote: »

A study in 'The Lancet' suggests that 116,000 civilians were killed in Iraq, in an illegal war, by US and brit forces over 10 years.

How many civilians did the PIRA kill over 30 years?
Here's the figure, 512.
No defending it, but still, 512 over 30 years.

29.9% of people killed by the PIRA were civilians.
85.43% of people killed by loyalists were civilians, or 868 people.

Cool

If you would like to start a thread about the illegal war in Iraq and the actions of the US and UK governments i would be more than happy to debate that with you, you may be surprised to find I will agree with a lot of what you say on that subject.

Timberrrrrrrr

LeeMajors wrote: »

June to October 2014.
ISIS have killed over 5,500 civilians in Iraq alone, according to The New York Times.

Who actually started this ridiculous thread comparing the PIRA to ISIS?

Mod Note: Here you are folks, a shiny new thread to discuss which of the two above organisations are better/worse than the other. Please keep this kind of stuff off the Sinn Fein thread.

LeeMajors

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Mod Note: Here you are folks, a shiny new thread to discuss which of the two above organisations are better/worse than the other. Please keep this kind of stuff off the Sinn Fein thread.

So, it was started by a moderator???

Good Jesus! That tells us a lot. He's not a FG TD by any chance?

LeeMajors

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Cool

If you would like to start a thread about the illegal war in Iraq and the actions of the US and UK governments i would be more than happy to debate that with you, you may be surprised to find I will agree with a lot of what you say on that subject.

Are you 'glossing over' the couple of percentages at the end of my post there?
Figures from CAIN.

gallag

LeeMajors wrote: »

A study in 'The Lancet' suggests that 116,000 civilians were killed in Iraq, in an illegal war, by US and brit forces over 10 years.

How many civilians did the PIRA kill over 30 years?
Here's the figure, 512.
No defending it, but still, 512 over 30 years.

29.9% of people killed by the PIRA were civilians.
85.43% of people killed by loyalists were civilians, or 868 people.

Just to delve into these numbers a bit more, naturally the loyalists (i notice you group all loyalist groups including security forces together to compare to a single republican group) will have a higher percentage of civilians killed, quite simply because unlike the IRA the were not fighting state forces! If you compare two groups, for example the IRA and the UVF you will see the IRA killed more of every group, more catholic civilians etc but because they also killed a load of none civilians I.e prison guards, police etc you think they were more saintly?

LeeMajors

gallag wrote: »

Just to delve into these numbers a bit more, naturally the loyalists (i notice you group all loyalist groups including security forces together to compare to a single republican group) will have a higher percentage of civilians killed, quite simply because unlike the IRA the were not fighting state forces! If you compare two groups, for example the IRA and the UVF you will see the IRA killed more of every group, more catholic civilians etc but because they also killed a load of none civilians I.e prison guards, police etc you think they were more saintly?

Ok, we'll include all republican groups then.

35% of people killed by republicans were civilians, or 727.

85.43% of people killed by loyalists were civilians, or 868.

The only person using the word 'saintly' on this thread is yourself.

jaysblades

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Unless you were one of the many innocent people they murdered right?

**** happens in war

gallag

LeeMajors wrote: »

Ok, we'll include all republican groups then.

35% of people killed by republicans were civilians, or 727.

85.43% of people killed by loyalists were civilians, or 868.

But you are missing the point, if for example the loyalists also killed a ton of Irish army would there credibility and kindness shoot up in your eyes because their civilan/non civilan ratio changed? We're the IRA less of a blight on the Catholic community than the UVF even though that killed more of them just because they also killed loads of non civilians? I don't understand your logic?

The way I look at it is the IRA were worse for the Catholic community than the UVF simply because the IRA killed more catholic civilians than the UVF, The IRA killing all the non civilians in the world wouldn't change that.

LeeMajors

gallag wrote: »

But you are missing the point, if for example the loyalists also killed a ton of Irish army would there credibility and kindness shoot up in your eyes because their civilan/non civilan ratio changed? We're the IRA less of a blight on the Catholic community than the UVF even though that killed more of them just because they also killed loads of non civilians? I don't understand your logic?

The way I look at it is the IRA were worse for the Catholic community than the UVF simply because the IRA killed more catholic civilians than the UVF, The IRA killing all the non civilians in the world wouldn't change that.

Loyalists and the brit forces killed almost 400 more civilians than all republican groups during the troubles.
You have your view on the troubles and I have mine.

Either way, this thread is asking for the difference between ISIS and the IRA.

The fact that this thread has been started by a moderator astounds me if that is the case.
I know post 1 is credited to barneystinson, but the mod note and timberrr's earlier post suggests that a moderator set up the thread.

SuperSean11

Their location

jaysblades

Numbers , blah. Here is an experiment that will prove the difference.

Walk up to an IRA member and say " I don't agree with your core beliefs "

Then say the same to an Isis member .

Be sure to do it in that order however , caus if you go to the Isis member first, you won't get a chance to say it to the IRA member.

not yet

LeeMajors wrote: »

It seems that both states were supporting criminality and terrorism.
Interesting.

Yeah, but only one state raped and and robbed to many countries to shake a stick at. Lets not mince our words here but the British state (not it's people) is hated around the world and for good reason.

Oops, sorry....I forgot we cant bring up any historical stuff.

not yet

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I don't know, why don't you get me the numbers and we can crunch them. Fwiw i have never condoned the actions of any armies in Iraq or Afghanistan so you may need to find a different tree to bark up

And still you were part of one of them..

Strange that.

gladrags

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh dear. That won't help the smearbots' claims of IRA criminality when they were operating with full Irish State support...

Can you believe that.?

The Irish worldwide colluded with the Irish Republican Army,in a war against the might of the British empire.

LeeMajors

gladrags wrote: »

Can you believe that.?

The Irish colluded with the Irish Republican Army,in a war against the might of the British empire.

Sure didn't Charlie Haughey and Neil Blaney try to arm the PIRA?

not yet

LeeMajors wrote: »

A study in 'The Lancet' suggests that 116,000 civilians were killed in Iraq, in an illegal war, by US and brit forces over 10 years.

How many civilians did the PIRA kill over 30 years?
Here's the figure, 512.
No defending it, but still, 512 over 30 years.

29.9% of people killed by the PIRA were civilians.
85.43% of people killed by loyalists were civilians, or 868 people.

You have gone and spoiled it now, They were quiet happy believing the IRA were responsible for the full 3466 deaths in the north..

Timberrrrrrrr

jaysblades wrote: »

**** happens in war

True, i'm not the one crying about a "shoot to kill policy" though.

LeeMajors

not yet wrote: »

You have gone and spoiled it now, They were quiet happy believing the IRA were responsible for the full 3700 deaths in the north..

3,532 in total.

1,080 of these were brit security forces killed by republicans and as such were seen as legitimate targets.

brit security forces killed 363 people during the same conflict, and that's not including the collusion with loyalist terrorists.

All these figures are freely available here, for anyone who wants a proper assessment of who did what during the 30 year conflict.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/crosstabs.html


Any normal person who wants to continually lay the blame of the troubles at Sinn Fein or the PIRA's door really should seek help.....or an education.

gallag

not yet wrote: »

Yeah, but only one state raped and and robbed to many countries to shake a stick at. Lets not mince our words here but the British state (not it's people) is hated around the world and for good reason.

Oops, sorry....I forgot we cant bring up any historical stuff.

Don't forget the Irish were a part of the British empire at the time, will the Scotts some day get independence and talk about the murderous Brits in Iraq and Afghanistan as if no blood on their hands?

Timberrrrrrrr

not yet wrote: »

And still you were part of one of them..

Strange that.

Was, so what?

You are middle management in the civil service who boasts about how little work you do and how much golf you get to play do you hear me complaining?

gallag

LeeMajors wrote: »

3,532 in total.

1,080 of these were brit security forces killed by republicans and as such were seen as legitimate targets.

brit security forces killed 363 people during the same conflict, and that's not including the collusion with loyalist terrorists.

All these figures are freely available here, for anyone who wants a proper assessment of who did what during the 30 year conflict.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/crosstabs.html


Any sane or normal person who wants to continually lay the blame of the troubles at Sinn Fein or the PIRA's door really should seek help.....or an education.

You are correct! You cannot ignore numbers! Numbers are cold and have no bias, so you will agree that the absolute menace of the UVF on the Catholic people, the UVF that even the name casts fear and hatred into republicans, it's hard to explain just how wicked and awful the UVF were to the Catholic people but as the numbers show the UVF savagery on the Catholic people was only dwarved by the IRA.

not yet

LeeMajors wrote: »

3,532 in total.

1,080 of these were brit security forces killed by republicans and as such were seen as legitimate targets.

brit security forces killed 363 people during the same conflict, and that's not including the collusion with loyalist terrorists.

All these figures are freely available here, for anyone who wants a proper assessment of who did what during the 30 year conflict.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/crosstabs.html


Any sane or normal person who wants to continually lay the blame of the troubles at Sinn Fein or the PIRA's door really should seek help.....or an education.

True..

I'd like to ask for honest opinions from The anti IRA on here.

Where do they think the Catholic population would be today if the IRA had not come back into existence.

During the 40s,50s and 60s catholic's in the north were marginalised, kept out of the best jobs, burned out of their homes (that were slums), attacked in the workplace and generally treated like dirt. Nobody gave a fcuk during this period of time and the space was filled by the IRA..

LeeMajors

gallag wrote: »

Don't forget the Irish were a part of the British empire at the time, will the Scotts some day get independence and talk about the murderous Brits in Iraq and Afghanistan as if no blood on their hands?

Any chance of a comment on the subject of the thread, i.e the differences between ISIS and the IRA?
Over a 30 year conflict we can see that the PIRA killed 1707 people, including what they classes as legitimate targets (over 1,000 brit security forces)
How does this compare with ISIS?

not yet

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Was, so what?

You are middle management in the civil service who boasts about how little work you do and how much golf you get to play do you hear me complaining?

Extremely strange comparison to make..:rolleyes:

One is part of a imperialist armed force that destroys the entire fabric of a country:

The other is, well the other.........:rolleyes: