What are the differences between ISIS and the IRA?

barneystinson

I'm the one who introduced ISIS and Al Qaeda. I asked what the difference is between them and the IRA. How are you getting from that question to a comment in the Dail about water charge protesters??

Mod Note: Here you are folks, a shiny new thread to discuss which of the two above organisations are better/worse than the other. Please keep this kind of stuff off the Sinn Fein thread.

RecordStraight

barneystinson wrote: »

I'm the one who introduced ISIS and Al Qaeda. I asked what the difference is between them and the IRA. How are you getting from that question to a comment in the Dail about water charge protesters??

I think your question took a diversion...

RecordStraight

Jawgap wrote: »

And the proxy bombs - they killed a few 'agents of the Crown' - was that a legitimate tactic?

At least ISIS suicide bombers seem to be volunteers.

RecordStraight

gladrags wrote: »

The answer is the west armed Al Quaida,and ISIS.

The West armed ISIS, and...the East armed the IRA?

Not much of a difference there really. Like shopping in Dunnes versus Tesco.

not yet

RecordStraight wrote: »

The West armed ISIS, and...the East armed the IRA?

Not much of a difference there really. Like shopping in Dunnes versus Tesco.

Do you ever read the stuff you put up..

RecordStraight

not yet wrote: »

Do you ever read the stuff you put up..

Even better, I write it.

What the hell does where the weapons come from have to do with anything when comparing the two organisations? It's just a red herring. It's what they do with the weapons that defines them.

Timberrrrrrrr

gladrags wrote: »

The answer is the west armed Al Quaida,and ISIS.

IRA's largest contributor were the American citizens.

tomwaterford

[quote=" It's what they do with the weapons that defines them.[/quote]

Exactly....no one in their right mind views what the ira did to be in anyway comparable to Isis


Where are the tales of the ira going around beheading children???

tomwaterford

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

A bullet to the head or your throat slit and head cut off, dead is still dead.

This is true....but despite what a lot might think....there is no reports of the ira systematically killing innocent civilians after rocking upto there village ???

tomwaterford

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Again


Dead is dead

Yes....but the original question was....were they different to Isis

You can surly appreciate that there was at least some effort to keep civilian deaths to a minimum (well as much as you can while bombing??)

Phoebas

tomwaterford wrote: »

This is true....but despite what a lot might think....there is no reports of the ira systematically killing innocent civilians after rocking upto there village ???

Yeah - the IRA never did anything like that.

tomwaterford

Phoebas wrote: »

Yeah - the IRA never did anything like that.

Are you equating the Warrington bomb (as bad as it was) with rocking up to a village and systematically killing/enslaving its population???


Quite a stretch of reality there???

Phoebas

tomwaterford wrote: »

You can surly appreciate that there was at least some effort to keep civilian deaths to a minimum (well as much as you can while bombing??)

'tis fierce hard to avoid civilian casualties when you're exploding bombs in their towns and cities.

tomwaterford

Phoebas wrote: »

'tis fierce hard to avoid civilian casualties when you're exploding bombs in their towns and cities.

It's long since been proven to be helpful in avoiding casualties in these situations by providing a phoned warning???

c montgomery

Gerry Adams has yet to deny being in ISIS

LeeMajors

tomwaterford wrote: »

Are you equating the Warrington bomb (as bad as it was) with rocking up to a village and systematically killing/enslaving its population???


Quite a stretch of reality there???

Amazing how Colin Parry can move on with his life even after a tragedy like Warrington.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CEAQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mirror.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-news%2Fwarrington-bombing-20-years-on-1775013&ei=tvkFVeybCcWt7gae3oDwDw&usg=AFQjCNHZ6jKU3UZY90rCVUOFRkMWTmDhYw


It's a pity people in this country haven't the gumption to do the same and continue to use his son as a political football.

RecordStraight

As I've said elsewhere, the difference is just a matter of degree. ISIS have more power and are more concerned with public demonstrations of brutality, and have certainly been involved in worse atrocities.

But this is not to say that the IRA has not carried out its own atrocities - Warrington being just one of many.

Are/were ISIS and the IRA both terrorist groups? Yes. Just as Accrington Stanley and Chelsea are both soccer teams. Are they the same? No. Chelsea is a much better soccer team than Accrington Stanley. ISIS is a much more violent/successful (at terror) terrorist group than the IRA.

Timberrrrrrrr

tomwaterford wrote: »

This is true....but despite what a lot might think....there is no reports of the ira systematically killing innocent civilians after rocking upto there village ???

Jean McConvilles family would probably disagree.

meathstevie

Phoebas wrote: »

Yeah - the IRA never did anything like that.

Quite a difference between events like Warrington and taking over a town and systematically slaughtering every non-Sunni.



If you would want to compare ISIS behaviour to PIRA behaviour you'd have to come up with something like 150 militants taking over Aughnacloy and Emmyvale and proceeding to slaughter every non-Republican occupant.

Granted, there have been extremely nasty incidents like Kingsmill and the like but when it comes to comparing the Provo's with ISIS you're really comparing boyscouts with the SS.

Take the mortar attacks at Heathrow for an example. The Provo's probably timed their launch to not hit aircraft full of people while still shutting down the airport. ISIS would RPG the bejaysus out of a taxiing aircraft while running half a dozen suicide bombers into the terminal buildings at the same time looking for maximum casualties.

tomwaterford

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Jean McConvilles family would probably disagree.

She is one person who was far from innocent civilian
It's long been said she was an informer... Going by the Boston tapes

Phoebas

tomwaterford wrote: »

It's long since been proven to be helpful in avoiding casualties in these situations by providing a phoned warning???

In the case of Warrington, not only did they not avoid civilian casualties, but the first bomb drove people into the path of the second one.

Witnesses said that "the first explosion drove panicking shoppers into the path of the next blast just seconds later".

What was the non civilian target of the IRA when they planted their bombs outside a McDonald's and an Argos on a Saturday afternoon.

RecordStraight

meathstevie wrote: »

Granted, there have been extremely nasty incidents like Kingsmill and the like but when it comes to comparing the Provo's with ISIS you're really comparing boyscouts with the SS.

Indeed. Saying that the IRA is/was as bad as ISIS actually diminishes the seriousness of the IRA's atrocities by normal standards, because you are comparing them to the acme of absolute evil.

Godge

meathstevie wrote: »

Quite a difference between events like Warrington and taking over a town and systematically slaughtering every non-Sunni.

If you would want to compare ISIS behaviour to PIRA behaviour you'd have to come up with something like 150 militants taking over Aughnacloy and Emmyvale and proceeding to slaughter every non-Republican occupant.

Granted, there have been extremely nasty incidents like Kingsmill and the like but when it comes to comparing the Provo's with ISIS you're really comparing boyscouts with the SS.

A comparison between ISIS and the IRA is overblown but the IRA were not boyscouts.

I think the Accrington Stanley/Chelsea comparison is apt. Both are soccer teams yet play in a different league. ISIS and the IRA are both terrorist organisations.

An even better comparison might be Barcelona and Finn Harps. One is a soccer team on an international world-wide level, the other is a soccer team whose support is confined to a small part of Ireland.

Timberrrrrrrr

Phoebas wrote: »

In the case of Warrington, not only did they not avoid civilian casualties, but the first bomb drove people into the path of the second one.




What was the non civilian target of the IRA when they planted their bombs outside a McDonald's and an Argos on a Saturday afternoon.

Don't forget the Birmingham pub bombings.

Sound of Silence

I think a more pertinent question would be, which group would you prefer to control the area you live in?

I'm willing to bet that the IRA would be the more benevolent of the two. Hell, they might even let you keep your head!

RecordStraight

tomwaterford wrote: »

She is one person who was far from innocent civilian
It's long been said she was an informer... Going by the Boston tapes

The Boston tapes also say that Adams was responsible for ordering her death. I know you are actually consistent and would say, "yeah, he did it, and he was an IRA commander". But many Sinn Fein supporters would use the Boston tapes to assert she was an informer and then deny the claims about Adams from the very same source.

Which is annoying.

LeeMajors

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Jean McConvilles family would probably disagree.

As far as the PIRA were concerned at the time, she was an informer.

tomwaterford

Phoebas wrote: »

In the case of Warrington, not only did they not avoid civilian casualties, but the first bomb drove people into the path of the second one.




What was the non civilian target of the IRA when they planted their bombs outside a McDonald's and an Argos on a Saturday afternoon.

I do fail to see how you have managed to equate that to systemarically killing entire villages


I'm not saying it was right....but I'm intrigued to see how you came to equating the two of them

RecordStraight

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I think a more pertinent question would be, which group would you prefer to control the area you live in?

I'm willing to bet that the IRA would be the more benevolent of the two. Hell, they might even let you keep your head!

Agreed.

Mind you, if you were having a pint in the local, you'd want to be careful not to look at anyone sideways. Ask Robert McCartney. I suppose they didn't actually behead him, but they did gut him.

LeeMajors

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Don't forget the Birmingham pub bombings.

The ones where your beloved brit state jailed innocent people for 16 years?

tomwaterford

RecordStraight wrote: »

Agreed.

Mind you, if you were having a pint in the local, you'd want to be careful not to look at anyone sideways. Ask Robert McCartney. I suppose they didn't actually behead him, but they did gut him.

Being fair Robert McCartney bravely intervened in a row between the ira and an armed robber (friend of his) and got stabbed for getting between both of them....No one suggests they set out to kill him that night

Phoebas

tomwaterford wrote: »

I do fail to see how you have managed to equate that to systemarically killing entire villages

That's 'cos I didn't.

Here's what I responded to:

tomwaterford wrote:

....there is no reports of the ira systematically killing innocent civilians after rocking upto there village ???

The IRA did rock up to Warrington and did systematically kill innocent civilians.

LeeMajors

RecordStraight wrote: »

Agreed.

Mind you, if you were having a pint in the local, you'd want to be careful not to look at anyone sideways. Ask Robert McCartney. I suppose they didn't actually behead him, but they did gut him.

Here we go again.
Who killed Robert McCartney and why was he killed?

tomwaterford

Phoebas wrote: »

That's 'cos I didn't.

Here's what I responded to:

The IRA did rock up to Warrington and did systematically kill innocent civilians.

I think you've a different meaning/understanding for systemarically to me

I meant where Isis rocked up and killed all the civilians deliberately....like went door to door seeking them out executing them until they had them all killed


I do apologise if the wording I used caused issue

RecordStraight

LeeMajors wrote: »

Here we go again.
Who killed Robert McCartney and why was he killed?

You tell us, Lee.

Phoebas

RecordStraight wrote: »

At least ISIS suicide bombers seem to be volunteers.

True that. Proxy bombers are amongst the most evil tactic ever used by any terrorist organisation.

barneystinson

tomwaterford wrote: »

Being fair Robert McCartney bravely intervened in a row between the ira and an armed robber (friend of his) and got stabbed for getting between both of them....No one suggests they set out to kill him that night

Sorry, he what now?!

It was all just a big accident was it?!

I've had someone earlier (not sure was it you) tell me it was a "rouge element" I.e. individuals who happened to be IRA members, but now you're saying it was "the IRA".

Which was it?

Timberrrrrrrr

LeeMajors wrote: »

As far as the PIRA were concerned at the time, she was an informer.

And that was reason to drag her from her house in front of her kids, take her away, shoot her dead and then bury her body for decades all the time lying to her family about what happened to her?

LeeMajors

RecordStraight wrote: »

You tell us, Lee.

Is there something wrong with you?
You made claims here, again, and you want me to back them up for you.
I'm beginning to wonder exactly what I'm dealing with here.
Obviously, you have a problem of some sort and perhaps I shouldn't be exacerbating it by conversing with you.

Best to leave it at that I think.;)

tomwaterford

barneystinson wrote: »

Sorry, he what now?!

It was all just a big accident was it?!

I've had someone earlier (not sure was it you) tell me it was a "rouge element" I.e. individuals who happened to be IRA members, but now you're saying it was "the IRA".

Which was it?

If they are member of the ira the ira is responsible for there actions (like any other army)

It was actually him intervening on behalf of a criminal friend (convicted armed robber) who was fighting with ira members that he got stabbed in the fracas

Not as some would have you believe that the ira rocked up,pulled him out and gutted him!!!

barneystinson

RecordStraight wrote: »

You tell us, Lee.

Yes please do Lee.

Tom reckons it was the IRA.

Timberrrrrrrr

LeeMajors wrote: »

The ones where your beloved brit state jailed innocent people for 16 years?

No

The ones where your beloved IRA planted bombs in a packed pub on a Friday night with the full intention of killing innocent civilians.

barneystinson

tomwaterford wrote: »

If they are member of the ira the ira is responsible for there actions (like any other army)

It was actually him intervening on behalf of a criminal friend (convicted armed robber) who was fighting with ira members that he got stabbed in the fracas

Not as some would have you believe that the ira rocked up,pulled him out and gutted him!!!

How do you know that?

Were you one of the 70-odd people in the jacks at the time??

Just to be clear, are you saying he wasnt slit from chest to navel?

LeeMajors

barneystinson wrote: »

Sorry, he what now?!

It was all just a big accident was it?!

I've had someone earlier (not sure was it you) tell me it was a "rouge element" I.e. individuals who happened to be IRA members, but now you're saying it was "the IRA".

Which was it?

Two people went on trial if I remember correctly.
An Englishman and an Irishman.
Nobody was convicted.

barneystinson

LeeMajors wrote: »

Two people went on trial if I remember correctly.
An Englishman and an Irishman.
Nobody was convicted.

That's not the answer to the question I asked, is it?

But in response to your non-answer - So what, does that mean he wasnt murdered?!

LeeMajors

barneystinson wrote: »

Yes please do Lee.

Tom reckons it was the IRA.

One of the killers was member of the IRA afaik.

Someone was going on about football teams earlier.

If a player from a football team goes on the lash at the weekend and kills someone, is the whole football team responsible?
Is the team , the league and the governing body responsible?

Rightwing

Probably the dumbest title I've seen on boards, and I have seen fairly dumb ones.

tomwaterford

barneystinson wrote: »

How do you know that?

Were you one of the 70-odd people in the jacks at the time??

Just to be clear, are you saying he wasnt slit from chest to navel?

It was widely reported at the time like....I assumed most people knew this already

Afaik even his family said as much!!


No...he was 100% stabbed of that I've no doubt :rolleyes:

Phoebas

LeeMajors wrote: »

As far as the PIRA were concerned at the time, she was an informer.

LeeMajors wrote: »

Two people went on trial if I remember correctly.
An Englishman and an Irishman.
Nobody was convicted.

Gotta love the double standard.
McConville is fair game because as far as the IRA were concerned she was an informer. But there was no conviction in the McCartney case, so who's to say who was involved in it.

tomwaterford

LeeMajors wrote: »

One of the killers was member of the IRA afaik.

Someone was going on about football teams earlier.

If a player from a football team goes on the lash at the weekend and kills someone, is the whole football team responsible?
Is the team , the league and the governing body responsible?

No...but a military is responsible for its members....curiously enough his family turned down the option of having his killers executed

RecordStraight

LeeMajors wrote: »

One of the killers was member of the IRA afaik.

Someone was going on about football teams earlier.

If a player from a football team goes on the lash at the weekend and kills someone, is the whole football team responsible?
Is the team , the league and the governing body responsible?

Ok, so this is more comparable to the way Sinn Fein/IRA was moving rapists and paedophiles around the place without warning anyone, like the Catholic Church?