Trinity college educated surgeon encourages trainee clinicians to accept sex offers

steddyeddy

Golaco wrote: »

Um not quite. This woman is advocating keeping quiet or going along with it in order to further their careers

Don't think the witnesses or victims who didn't speak up in Saville's case had this in mind...

Both cases involved degradation and the protection of self interest in return for silence.

volchitsa

steddyeddy wrote: »

Exactly my view on this. They were often told don't speak up or you won't be believed.

Except she didn't say the young doctors (not children, you do get that there is a difference, I hope?) wouldn't be believed, she said that sexism is so rife that they would effectively be punished for complaining, whether or not they were believed.

That's nothing like what happened with the children (children!) Jimmy Savile abused.

volchitsa

Baby Jane wrote: »

I think she's right to have spelled out the reality - no point in sugarcoating it. I don't know that people are taking issue with this. What's being criticised is the way it comes across as if her view is "That's just the way it is, meh, nothing you can do about it" rather than attempting to tackle and de-normalise it.

If who had complained?

Yeh I noticed that - very weird comment. "Who would sexually harass her? She's not hot" is what it seems to have meant. Only the "temptresses" get sexually harassed; never happens to the non beauties.

Yes. I get the feeling that some posters here simply don't like that she told the truth. Shooting the messenger in fact.

Turtwig

This is a report on a second hand account of the radio interview. I doubt the journalist in the Irish Times actually listened to the original transcript. There's knee jerk reactions about everything. So context is key, is it plausible that an author of book about gender equality would basically suggest women to put up and shut up? Unlikely, it's possible of course.

I'd say though it's more a case of this doctor illustrating in cold doctor like speak how awful the situation is. That quote turns out to be a bombshell and nobody is made aware of the context of it, nor the actual opinion of the doctor. Our sole understanding of this doctor's position is based on the quotation. Which is to say we've no understanding.

In short: Terrible journalism.
Cheap ass headline too.

Baby Jane

volchitsa wrote: »

Yes. I get the feeling that some posters here simply don't like that she told the truth. Shooting the messenger in fact.

Not me. You appear to be coming from a feminist angle (I don't mean that pejoritively, or however you spell it!) as am I, by saying she shouldn't perpetuate a "Meh, no point trying to fight it, that's the way it is - just give him that blowjob" attitude.

gozunda

volchitsa wrote: »

A sure way to get on the fast-track for promotion, that. :rolleyes:

And what method do you suggest if this was your daughter?

Well if he is afraid of his ****e - he's unlikley to try anything smart. Especially since reporting the wee pr1k is likley to get the trainee blackballed. It will definitely hurt him where it should and remind him to play nice in the future

steddyeddy

"Just give him a blowjob". Are we dealing with Neanderthals or clinicians?

My name is URL

steddyeddy wrote: »

"Just give him a blowjob". Are we dealing with Neanderthals or clinicians?

pffft.. I doubt neanderthals were bothered with foreplay =p

gormdubhgorm

Hey Hey My My wrote: »

According to my friend, it was very common among acting, I told her not to do it as it amounted to prostitution. But again she seemed to accept it as it was according to her rife.

Is it "acting classes" or "theatre production" that I should be googling
Directing a play sounds great craic.....

Tarzana2

steddyeddy wrote: »

I really hope you're exaggerating when you say it's common!

I expect casting couch stuff is very common.

It's a high demand area, many people want in and will do anything to get there. I'd imagine many famous people today did stuff like this early on in their careers.

Shrap

My name is URL wrote: »

pffft.. I doubt neanderthals were bothered with foreplay =p

Ahh....ya, it's not called foreplay if it's "give me a blow-job if you know what's good for you" except in exceptional circumstances where both consenting adults know it's a game.

volchitsa

Baby Jane wrote: »

Not me. You appear to be coming from a feminist angle (I don't mean that pejoritively, or however you spell it!) as am I, by saying she shouldn't perpetuate a "Meh, no point trying to fight it, that's the way it is - just give him that blowjob" attitude.

But we don't know that she was actually advising it, as others have pointed out also, all we have are a couple of quotes quite possibly out of context, and from a woman who has written a book about gender equality - so is it likely that she really thinks her trainees should "just give him a blowjob".

I think she was just being brutally honest about what these young women needed to know before deciding to put in a complaint, I really don't think she was telling them to "put out" for the sake of their careers.

Shrap

volchitsa wrote: »

I think she was just being brutally honest about what these young women needed to know before deciding to put in a complaint, I really don't think she was telling them to "put out" for the sake of their careers.

That's the way I'd take it up too. ie. If you're ever unfortunate enough to find yourself having to deal with an unwanted sexual advance from a senior clinician, you're basically screwed. Damned if you do, damned if you don't and damned if you complain. I'd say that's a fairly realistic scenario still in certain professions.

volchitsa

gozunda wrote: »

And what method do you suggest if this was your daughter?

Well if he is afraid of his ****e - he's unlikley to try anything smart. Especially since reporting the wee pr1k is likley to get the trainee blackballed. It will definitely hurt him where it should and remind him to play nice in the future

Maybe you could keep to the topic a little? This isn't about what parents can or should do. It's about whether young women are likely to be penalized in a traditionally male, high-testosterone career structure if they put in a complaint about advances made to them by their superiors.

If the truth is that they are - and is there any reason to doubt this doctor? - them as adults, these young women are entitled to know that, and not be lied to and allowed to imagine that they will find much support from others around them.
In my opinion.

Zippie84

steddyeddy wrote: »

Gabrielle, a top surgeon who was educated in Trinity thinks that women who are approached by men making sexual advances would do better to accept the offer lest they hurt their career. I know there are politics involved in rising through the ranks in medicine but I hope it doesn't extend as far as this. Does she really think clinicians should become glorified hookers for the sake of their career.



Article link: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/trainees-should-accept-sexual-advances-says-tcd-educated-surgeon-1.2130969

Oh, the irony that this was published on International Women's Day.

MRnotlob606

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What does her education from TCD have to do with anything?

George Bush went to Harvard and Yale, sometimes education does not help people with innate stupidity.

Tarzana2

Baby Jane wrote: »

Yeh I noticed that - very weird comment. "Who would sexually harass her? She's not hot" is what it seems to have meant. Only the "temptresses" get sexually harassed; never happens to the non beauties.

Plus, she's hardly a moose. She's an older woman, yeah, but easy to see she might have been propositioned as a young trainee.

conorh91

She is a member of the Order of Phlebology.

Sounds like a blood-sucking cult, but really it's just about varicose veins.

Augmerson

I want to believe that the person in question has put this opinion across about the plight of female trainee clinicians in this way because otherwise who would notice? She'd just be joining a vast, and rightly vast, chorus of people saying sexual advances by seniors on juniors in a professional environment is wrong.

The way she has said it, it shocked me at first, but when I thought about it, it's a smart thing to do, and really puts an emphasis on how bad this is.

bodice ripper

there is a difference between someone "asking for sex" and "sexual assault".

JuliusCaesar

bodice ripper wrote: »

there is a difference between someone "asking for sex" and "sexual assault".

And when the undercurrent is that you'll ruin your career options if you complain?

It's an abuse of power, by the powerful. They probably don't see it like that - in the same way as the 'make me a sandwich' crowd don't see that as an abuse of power either - as they will claim "she could just refuse" or "it's just a joke" or "she's so attractive" or "it's the only way she'd get any action" or whatever you want to put in as a justification.

It's still intimidation. And the only reason we're arguing about it, is because it happens almost exclusively to younger, junior, women who require references from the more powerful person.

Imagine if predatory homosexual men were making such advances to young men! The discussion here would be very different.

goose2005

My name is URL wrote: »

Sounds more like she was making a point about the sad reality of it all rather than trying to genuinely encourage it.

Seems to be a common attitude in medicine, the general advice if you're being bullied by a superior, or forced to falsify timesheets or break rules, is "just do whatever your superior says, or else it'll damage your career"

Egginacup

steddyeddy wrote: »

Gabrielle, a top surgeon who was educated in Trinity thinks that women who are approached by men making sexual advances would do better to accept the offer lest they hurt their career. I know there are politics involved in rising through the ranks in medicine but I hope it doesn't extend as far as this. Does she really think clinicians should become glorified hookers for the sake of their career.



Article link: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/trainees-should-accept-sexual-advances-says-tcd-educated-surgeon-1.2130969

Why is Trinity even mentioned? You can't train as a surgeon at Trinity anyway.

volchitsa

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

And when the undercurrent is that you'll ruin your career options if you complain?

It's an abuse of power, by the powerful. They probably don't see it like that - in the same way as the 'make me a sandwich' crowd don't see that as an abuse of power either - as they will claim "she could just refuse" or "it's just a joke" or "she's so attractive" or "it's the only way she'd get any action" or whatever you want to put in as a justification.

It's still intimidation. And the only reason we're arguing about it, is because it happens almost exclusively to younger, junior, women who require references from the more powerful person.

Imagine if predatory homosexual men were making such advances to young men! The discussion here would be very different.

Of course it's an abuse of power, that is exactly what she is saying. It's so abusive that even complaining about it will cause you problems. Surely by telling these young women the situation honestly she can hardly be accused of advising them to do anything.


Re homosexuals : I think you mistake women reacting with a "so what else is new?" for active complicity with the men doing the abusing.

Tarzana2

volchitsa wrote: »

Of course it's an abuse of power, that is what she is saying. I think you mistake women reacting with a "so what else is new?" for active complicity with the men doing the abusing.

As a woman in a powerful position, she could be one the of few to actually make a difference if she wanted to.

rawn

Though she won the case, Caroline was subsequently unable to get work at any public hospital in Australia or New Zealand.
“Her career was ruined by this one guy asking for sex on this night. And, realistically, she would have been much better to have given him a blow job on that night,” Dr McMullin said.

This is the important bit. She's saying in terms of this particular woman's career, she wouldn't have been blacklisted if she accepted it. She is NOT saying that women should accept it, or that Caroline should ahve either. Context, people!

JuliusCaesar

Same story, different paper - yes, I know it's the Mail

Dr McMullin advised female trainees to avoid putting themselves in vulnerable situations. But giving in to unwanted sexual advances is easier than pursuing perpetrators, she warned, because the sexism is so entrenched.

Despite the attacks, Dr McMullin stood by her comments on Saturday, saying her advice was practical and true, and it was offered because she is 'so frustrated with what is going on.'

bodice ripper

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

And when the undercurrent is that you'll ruin your career options if you complain?

It's an abuse of power, by the powerful. They probably don't see it like that - in the same way as the 'make me a sandwich' crowd don't see that as an abuse of power either - as they will claim "she could just refuse" or "it's just a joke" or "she's so attractive" or "it's the only way she'd get any action" or whatever you want to put in as a justification.

It's still intimidation. And the only reason we're arguing about it, is because it happens almost exclusively to younger, junior, women who require references from the more powerful person.

Imagine if predatory homosexual men were making such advances to young men! The discussion here would be very different.

i agree, but there is still a difference between the two.

volchitsa

Tarzana2 wrote: »

As a woman in a powerful position, she could be one the of few to actually make a difference if she wanted to.

I think she has proven that she is making a difference, by getting so much reaction to something that all career women learn sooner or later, but that some had to discover the hard way.

If she had simply said for the Nth time that any woman to whom this happened should complain and to hell with the consequences, does anyone really think we would have heard about this at all? Of course not.

My name is URL

goose2005 wrote: »

Seems to be a common attitude in medicine, the general advice if you're being bullied by a superior, or forced to falsify timesheets or break rules, is "just do whatever your superior says, or else it'll damage your career"

Cosying up to superiors and ignoring best judgement for your own betterment is a sad fact of life for most people... even outside of your career and regardless of what your career is.

It's good to hear a surgeon at least mention it because it is a big problem in all areas of medicine.. it's a pity she wasn't more forthright and clear in what she was saying though. It gave the media an opportunity to spin it and people to only hear the bits they want.