Trinity college educated surgeon encourages trainee clinicians to accept sex offers

steddyeddy

Gabrielle, a top surgeon who was educated in Trinity thinks that women who are approached by men making sexual advances would do better to accept the offer lest they hurt their career. I know there are politics involved in rising through the ranks in medicine but I hope it doesn't extend as far as this. Does she really think clinicians should become glorified hookers for the sake of their career.

An Irish-educated surgeon has rejected criticism over comments she made saying surgical trainees should stay silent if they’re sexually assaulted by a colleague.

Dr Gabrielle McMullin, a Sydney-based vascular surgeon, said on ABC radio that sexism is commonplace among Australian surgeons and that young woman should accept unwanted sexual advances because coming forward could ruin their career.

Speaking while launching the book Pathways to Gender Equality - The Role of Merit and Quotas, which she co-authored, Dr McMullin referred to a woman called Caroline, who took a case against a surgeon accused of sexually assaulting her while she completed neurosurgical training at a Melbourne hospital.

Though she won the case, Caroline was subsequently unable to get work at any public hospital in Australia or New Zealand.
“Her career was ruined by this one guy asking for sex on this night. And, realistically, she would have been much better to have given him a blow job on that night,” Dr McMullin said.

Article link: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/trainees-should-accept-sexual-advances-says-tcd-educated-surgeon-1.2130969

seriouslyfunny

is she actually a woman? wtf!

oppenheimer1

What does her education from TCD have to do with anything?

Baby Jane

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What does her education from TCD have to do with anything?

Bringing in a local angle I suppose.

conorh91

I disagree with her approach obviously, but she isn't "encouraging" sexual abuse. She's being honest with her trainees

“What I tell my trainees is that, if you are approached for sex, probably the safest thing to do in terms of your career is to comply with the request; the worst thing you can possibly do is to complain to the supervising body because then, as in Caroline’s position, you can be sure that you will never be appointed to a major public hospital.”

Obviously it's a foolish approach to take because it risks perpetuating sexual harassment/ abuse; but it's not like she's going out there and giving sexual abuse the thumbs-up, or that she thinks it's perfectly fine.

steddyeddy

conorh91 wrote: »

I disagree with her approach obviously, but she isn't "encouraging" sexual abuse. She's being honest with her trainees

“What I tell my trainees is that, if you are approached for sex, probably the safest thing to do in terms of your career is to comply with the request; the worst thing you can possibly do is to complain to the supervising body because then, as in Caroline’s position, you can be sure that you will never be appointed to a major public hospital.”

Obviously it's a foolish approach to take because it risks perpetuating sexual harassment/ abuse; but it's not like she's going out there and giving sexual abuse the thumbs-up, or that she thinks it's perfectly fine.

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. She is in a position of power and instead of making any efforts to change the system she is recommending people to go along with it. It's disgusting IMHO.

humbert

Doctors can be dumbasses too shocker.

Also, having Googled her I suspect she has limited first hand experience of the problem.

Hey Hey My My

Quite common in some professions sadly, a friend of my performed a sex act when she was younger on a director of a play so she would get a part, telling him that she was on her period when she wasnt so she wouldnt have to do anymore.

Really sad

steddyeddy

Hey Hey My My wrote: »

Quite common in some professions sadly, a friend of my performed a sex act when she was younger on a director of a play so she would get a part, telling him that she was on her period when she wasnt so she wouldnt have to do anymore.

Really sad

I really hope you're exaggerating when you say it's common!

G_R

steddyeddy wrote: »

Gabrielle, a top surgeon who was educated in Trinity thinks that women who are approached by men making sexual advances would do better to accept the offer lest they hurt their career. I know there are politics involved in rising through the ranks in medicine but I hope it doesn't extend as far as this. Does she really think clinicians should become glorified hookers for the sake of their career.



Article link: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/trainees-should-accept-sexual-advances-says-tcd-educated-surgeon-1.2130969

Mod
OP - you're here long enough now to know that you can't just copy and paste an article from a news site and post it. You need to give a link, and have 2/3 paragraphs max - otherwise we start to fall foul of copyright law.

Hey Hey My My

steddyeddy wrote: »

I really hope you're exaggerating when you say it's common!

According to my friend, it was very common among acting, I told her not to do it as it amounted to prostitution. But again she seemed to accept it as it was according to her rife.

steddyeddy

Grand_Rajnah wrote: »

Mod
OP - you're here long enough now to know that you can't just copy and paste an article from a news site and post it. You need to give a link, and have 2/3 paragraphs max - otherwise we start to fall foul of copyright law.

OK sorry Grand. I wasn't aware of the rule. I'll be aware in future.

The Diabolical Monocle

Shock tactic for attention.

If she had complained it would have got lost in the sea of females complaining.

My name is URL

Sounds more like she was making a point about the sad reality of it all rather than trying to genuinely encourage it.

humbert

mikemac1 wrote: »

You were googling some Professor who retired.

The doctor here is in the link for New Zealand in post 1

Why do you think I'm referring to "Caroline"??

Precious flower

I kind of felt like if she was trying to make a point that she would have added about how horrible and unacceptable that was instead of just saying your best option is doing what they want and staying quiet. She says nothing abut addressing this kind of abhorrent practice. I find it really hard to believe to that that women she referred to couldn't get a job in Australia or New Zealand after she reported the abuse! That's insane!

steddyeddy

Precious flower wrote: »

I kind of felt like if she was trying to make a point that she would have added about how horrible and unacceptable that was instead of just saying your best option is doing what they want and staying quiet. She says nothing abut addressing this kind of abhorrent practice. I find it really hard to believe to that that women she referred to couldn't get a job in Australia or New Zealand after she reported the abuse! That's insane!

Yes I find it hard to accept that she was condemning the practice. She was basically saying "your best bet is to go along with it or face the consequences".

volchitsa

Precious flower wrote: »

I kind of felt like if she was trying to make a point that she would have added about how horrible and unacceptable that was instead of just saying your best option is doing what they want and staying quiet. She says nothing abut addressing this kind of abhorrent practice. I find it really hard to believe to that that women she referred to couldn't get a job in Australia or New Zealand after she reported the abuse! That's insane!

And have you heard the whole interview, or are you reaching that conclusion solely from the "shock! horror!" extracts that have been published?

Only it seems to me that she may have been just trying a different approach - if she joined the chorus of people condemning sexual exploitation of young women by more senior males in just about any profession (casting couch, anyone?) would her words have been quoted by anyone - except possibly as yet another example of a woman whinging about something?

So instead she gets blamed for telling it as it is. Damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, afaict.

(And what was that bizarre comment from someone just now about googling her and feeling it wasn't an issue she would have experienced herself? Talk about inadvertently proving her point!:mad:)

steddyeddy

volchitsa wrote: »

And have you heard the whole interview, or are you reaching that conclusion solely from the "shock! horror!" extracts that have been published?

Only it seems to me that she may have been just trying a different approach - if she joined the chorus of people condemning sexual exploitation of young women by more senior males in just about any profession (casting couch, anyone?) would her words have been quoted by anyone - except possibly as yet another example of a woman whinging about something?

So instead she gets blamed for telling it as it is. Damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, afaict.

(And what was that bizarre comment from someone just now about googling her and feeling it wasn't an issue she would have experienced herself? Talk about inadvertently proving her point!:mad:)

So you think the best way for her to change things was to tell her trainees that the best thing they could do is accept sexual harassment? Surely a better idea would be to tell her trainees to report sexual harassment in the workplace?

The Rape of Lucretia

She has a point. The voice of experience though, so not sure that her young charges will learn the lesson before they have made the mistake themselves and its too late to recover their careers.

diograis

steddyeddy wrote: »

So you think the best way for her to change things was to tell her trainees that the best thing they could do is accept sexual harassment? Surely a better idea would be to tell her trainees to report sexual harassment in the workplace?

her point was reporting sexual harassment is ineffective and even counterproductive, did you even read the link?

volchitsa

steddyeddy wrote: »

So you think the best way for her to change things was to tell her trainees that the best thing they could do is accept sexual harassment? Surely a better idea would be to tell her trainees to report sexual harassment in the workplace?

Do you know that she didn't mention the existence of that possibility at all?
I understand her comment to be about the real risks to the career of any woman taking such a step.

So do you mean that she should have lied to them and told them they could take such a step without their career suffering, knowing that wasn't the case?

Or that she should have told them the truth - but been less forthcoming about it in public?

conorh91

Precious flower wrote: »

I kind of felt like if she was trying to make a point that she would have added about how horrible and unacceptable that was

Maybe she did.

Generally the most sensationalist aspect of a person's comments will get reported, and the more agreeable aspects just get passed over, because we all agree that sexual abuse is bad, and that isn't news.

gozunda

She is probably correct about reporting the badtards who would try this type of behaviour as in they will be still be badtards when a trainees tries to reports it. What I would suggest is a good ol knee in the nuts and then bring in the biggest ugliest MF and introduce him as the boyfriend who clearly informs him that if the wee ****e tries anything again he will find himself in serious trouble ...

volchitsa

gozunda wrote: »

She is probably correct about reporting the badtards who would try this type of behaviour as in they will be still be badtards when a trainees tries to reports it. What I would suggest is a good ol knee in the nuts and then bring in the biggest ugliest MF and introduce him as the boyfriend who clearly informs him that if the wee ****e tries anything again he will find himself in serious trouble ...

A sure way to get on the fast-track for promotion, that. :rolleyes:

KomradeBishop

Pretty much the same attitude that allowed Jimmy Saville to abuse and rape kids on a routine basis, in a UK hospital.

volchitsa

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Pretty much the same attitude that allowed Jimmy Saville to abuse and rape kids on a routine basis, in a UK hospital.

Seriously? The kids had something to gain from not telling anyone then? Better healthcare for example? FFS.

Apart from the fact that they were, you know, kids - and therefore not normally having sex otherwise. That's a really unhealthy amalgam to make. Imo.)

steddyeddy

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Pretty much the same attitude that allowed Jimmy Saville to abuse and rape kids on a routine basis, in a UK hospital.

Exactly my view on this. They were often told don't speak up or you won't be believed.

Golaco

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Pretty much the same attitude that allowed Jimmy Saville to abuse and rape kids on a routine basis, in a UK hospital.

Um not quite. This woman is advocating keeping quiet or going along with it in order to further their careers

Don't think the witnesses or victims who didn't speak up in Saville's case had this in mind...

darkpagandeath

I this a script for a Porn film ? How much do you want the job, Bow chiccka wowow

Baby Jane

I think she's right to have spelled out the reality - no point in sugarcoating it. I don't know that people are taking issue with this. What's being criticised is the way it comes across as if her view is "That's just the way it is, meh, nothing you can do about it" rather than attempting to tackle and de-normalise it.

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Shock tactic for attention.

If she had complained it would have got lost in the sea of females complaining.

If who had complained?

volchitsa wrote: »

(And what was that bizarre comment from someone just now about googling her and feeling it wasn't an issue she would have experienced herself?

Yeh I noticed that - very weird comment. "Who would sexually harass her? She's not hot" is what it seems to have meant. Only the "temptresses" get sexually harassed; never happens to the non beauties.

steddyeddy

Golaco wrote: »

Um not quite. This woman is advocating keeping quiet or going along with it in order to further their careers

Don't think the witnesses or victims who didn't speak up in Saville's case had this in mind...

Both cases involved degradation and the protection of self interest in return for silence.

volchitsa

steddyeddy wrote: »

Exactly my view on this. They were often told don't speak up or you won't be believed.

Except she didn't say the young doctors (not children, you do get that there is a difference, I hope?) wouldn't be believed, she said that sexism is so rife that they would effectively be punished for complaining, whether or not they were believed.

That's nothing like what happened with the children (children!) Jimmy Savile abused.

volchitsa

Baby Jane wrote: »

I think she's right to have spelled out the reality - no point in sugarcoating it. I don't know that people are taking issue with this. What's being criticised is the way it comes across as if her view is "That's just the way it is, meh, nothing you can do about it" rather than attempting to tackle and de-normalise it.

If who had complained?

Yeh I noticed that - very weird comment. "Who would sexually harass her? She's not hot" is what it seems to have meant. Only the "temptresses" get sexually harassed; never happens to the non beauties.

Yes. I get the feeling that some posters here simply don't like that she told the truth. Shooting the messenger in fact.

Turtwig

This is a report on a second hand account of the radio interview. I doubt the journalist in the Irish Times actually listened to the original transcript. There's knee jerk reactions about everything. So context is key, is it plausible that an author of book about gender equality would basically suggest women to put up and shut up? Unlikely, it's possible of course.

I'd say though it's more a case of this doctor illustrating in cold doctor like speak how awful the situation is. That quote turns out to be a bombshell and nobody is made aware of the context of it, nor the actual opinion of the doctor. Our sole understanding of this doctor's position is based on the quotation. Which is to say we've no understanding.

In short: Terrible journalism.
Cheap ass headline too.

Baby Jane

volchitsa wrote: »

Yes. I get the feeling that some posters here simply don't like that she told the truth. Shooting the messenger in fact.

Not me. You appear to be coming from a feminist angle (I don't mean that pejoritively, or however you spell it!) as am I, by saying she shouldn't perpetuate a "Meh, no point trying to fight it, that's the way it is - just give him that blowjob" attitude.

gozunda

volchitsa wrote: »

A sure way to get on the fast-track for promotion, that. :rolleyes:

And what method do you suggest if this was your daughter?

Well if he is afraid of his ****e - he's unlikley to try anything smart. Especially since reporting the wee pr1k is likley to get the trainee blackballed. It will definitely hurt him where it should and remind him to play nice in the future

steddyeddy

"Just give him a blowjob". Are we dealing with Neanderthals or clinicians?

My name is URL

steddyeddy wrote: »

"Just give him a blowjob". Are we dealing with Neanderthals or clinicians?

pffft.. I doubt neanderthals were bothered with foreplay =p

gormdubhgorm

Hey Hey My My wrote: »

According to my friend, it was very common among acting, I told her not to do it as it amounted to prostitution. But again she seemed to accept it as it was according to her rife.

Is it "acting classes" or "theatre production" that I should be googling
Directing a play sounds great craic.....

Tarzana2

steddyeddy wrote: »

I really hope you're exaggerating when you say it's common!

I expect casting couch stuff is very common.

It's a high demand area, many people want in and will do anything to get there. I'd imagine many famous people today did stuff like this early on in their careers.

Shrap

My name is URL wrote: »

pffft.. I doubt neanderthals were bothered with foreplay =p

Ahh....ya, it's not called foreplay if it's "give me a blow-job if you know what's good for you" except in exceptional circumstances where both consenting adults know it's a game.

volchitsa

Baby Jane wrote: »

Not me. You appear to be coming from a feminist angle (I don't mean that pejoritively, or however you spell it!) as am I, by saying she shouldn't perpetuate a "Meh, no point trying to fight it, that's the way it is - just give him that blowjob" attitude.

But we don't know that she was actually advising it, as others have pointed out also, all we have are a couple of quotes quite possibly out of context, and from a woman who has written a book about gender equality - so is it likely that she really thinks her trainees should "just give him a blowjob".

I think she was just being brutally honest about what these young women needed to know before deciding to put in a complaint, I really don't think she was telling them to "put out" for the sake of their careers.

Shrap

volchitsa wrote: »

I think she was just being brutally honest about what these young women needed to know before deciding to put in a complaint, I really don't think she was telling them to "put out" for the sake of their careers.

That's the way I'd take it up too. ie. If you're ever unfortunate enough to find yourself having to deal with an unwanted sexual advance from a senior clinician, you're basically screwed. Damned if you do, damned if you don't and damned if you complain. I'd say that's a fairly realistic scenario still in certain professions.

volchitsa

gozunda wrote: »

And what method do you suggest if this was your daughter?

Well if he is afraid of his ****e - he's unlikley to try anything smart. Especially since reporting the wee pr1k is likley to get the trainee blackballed. It will definitely hurt him where it should and remind him to play nice in the future

Maybe you could keep to the topic a little? This isn't about what parents can or should do. It's about whether young women are likely to be penalized in a traditionally male, high-testosterone career structure if they put in a complaint about advances made to them by their superiors.

If the truth is that they are - and is there any reason to doubt this doctor? - them as adults, these young women are entitled to know that, and not be lied to and allowed to imagine that they will find much support from others around them.
In my opinion.

Zippie84

steddyeddy wrote: »

Gabrielle, a top surgeon who was educated in Trinity thinks that women who are approached by men making sexual advances would do better to accept the offer lest they hurt their career. I know there are politics involved in rising through the ranks in medicine but I hope it doesn't extend as far as this. Does she really think clinicians should become glorified hookers for the sake of their career.



Article link: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/trainees-should-accept-sexual-advances-says-tcd-educated-surgeon-1.2130969

Oh, the irony that this was published on International Women's Day.

MRnotlob606

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What does her education from TCD have to do with anything?

George Bush went to Harvard and Yale, sometimes education does not help people with innate stupidity.

Tarzana2

Baby Jane wrote: »

Yeh I noticed that - very weird comment. "Who would sexually harass her? She's not hot" is what it seems to have meant. Only the "temptresses" get sexually harassed; never happens to the non beauties.

Plus, she's hardly a moose. She's an older woman, yeah, but easy to see she might have been propositioned as a young trainee.

conorh91

She is a member of the Order of Phlebology.

Sounds like a blood-sucking cult, but really it's just about varicose veins.

Augmerson

I want to believe that the person in question has put this opinion across about the plight of female trainee clinicians in this way because otherwise who would notice? She'd just be joining a vast, and rightly vast, chorus of people saying sexual advances by seniors on juniors in a professional environment is wrong.

The way she has said it, it shocked me at first, but when I thought about it, it's a smart thing to do, and really puts an emphasis on how bad this is.

bodice ripper

there is a difference between someone "asking for sex" and "sexual assault".