Learner mistakes

The Black Oil

This weekend's plans fell through. Football match didn't materialise. Either cancelled or bad info. The place was dead, no floodlights to be seen. Will get it again. The second plan was to find some the chickens/hens that were around, but they were no longer accessible.

What's striking about the work posted on this forum is its visual form, which is a bit like cinematography and a little intimidating. I still have a lot of basics to figure out re ISO, F stops, etc. Re the course I did (I understand course skepticism), that basically moved us to P. My concern there is over dependence, i.e. using it as shortcut, then flipping to M adjusting to the suggested settings as indicated by P, taking the shot in M, but not learning the theory, if you get me. I still have a lot to do re - 'oh, it's a bit cloudy, light is in X position, therefore apply _____'. I understand some basics in my head, but application to particular set ups/scenes is lacking, thus far.

Post-processing doesn't interest me hugely beyond some cropping. Admittedly, PP must cover a lot of ground (or not?), though and I don't know this forum well enough to guess have a sense of what way some of ye use it.

Studying - I'm down with that, just have to get to it, like everything else. :pac: More than flowers and sunlight interests me, yep.

eoglyn wrote: »

Other than the above-mentioned book and software, don't buy any more gear, cameras, lenses, books, software, lights, courses. You might think you need it, you may read very convincing arguments why you do. You don't.

CabanSail wrote: »

7/ Don't get obsessed by Gear.

W0LFMAN wrote: »

4/Your not doing proper photography, if you are waiting to buy better gear.

I tend not to buy on impulse, for the most part. Drooling about gear is OK in my book. I regularly read the Android and Apple forums on here for fun, but don't purchase often.

Anyway, I try to live by two adopted creeds on this subject. a) It's not the feature, it's the implementation and b) technology's an enabler, not a destination.

Thanks, everyone, for the welcome. :cool:

Silva360

sheesh wrote: »

Time of day: I went out at midday and nothing looks good

In the midday sun perhaps, but think of all the opportunities on an overcast or rainy day: woodlands, flowing water, macro, portrait, moody landscapes. Endless opportunities when the skies act as a great big soft box....

Tiriel

Silva360 wrote: »

In the midday sun perhaps, but think of all the opportunities on an overcast or rainy day: woodlands, flowing water, macro, portrait, moody landscapes. Endless opportunities when the skies act as a great big soft box....

That's very true.

When I was starting out I was happy with landscapes I took with the sun in the shot,lovely light and blue sky/reflections etc. Now looking back on those shots I can see that the highlights are all blown out, the areas in shadow are just black and the shots are just simply taken at the wrong time of day when the light is too harsh for the shot I was taking. Sometimes that works, of course - but in general, softer light is much better, in all weather conditions.

The Black Oil

Yeah, night time sports photography is a challenge...

I bumped up the iso to 1600, aperture at 5.6 most of the time, shutter 1/30 and played around with those two aspects a bit. Probably took in the region of 200 shots, with I'd say 97% being blur central! Camera shake, lack of knowledge and skill. Very little in the way of jerseys in focus, never mind limbs or faces. I did tried to stay fairly measured, kept my feet grounded, not clicking away like a loon, and it's just good practice to even follow the ball/action through your lens, to get used to the motion.

There was some fairly salty language going from the players. :pac: Still, it was good to get out in the fresh air on a Friday night and I'll try it again.

challengemaster

The Black Oil wrote: »

Yeah, night time sports photography is a challenge...

I bumped up the iso to 1600, aperture at 5.6 most of the time, shutter 1/30 and played around with those two aspects a bit.

It's one of the areas as a beginner that gear will hold you back. F/5.6 and max iso 1600 is nowhere near good enough. Shutter speed wants to be much higher, and the only way you can get a proper exposure is with f/2.8 - 4 lenses and ISO3200/6400/12800/256000/etc

http://theplaystudio.com/inspiration/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/dslr-photography-guide-infographic1.jpg

Good infographic is always helpful IMO

The Black Oil

Ah, that's handy.

magicbastarder

challengemaster wrote: »

It's one of the areas as a beginner that gear will hold you back. F/5.6 and max iso 1600 is nowhere near good enough. Shutter speed wants to be much higher, and the only way you can get a proper exposure is with f/2.8 - 4 lenses and ISO3200/6400/12800/256000/etc

or else you can shoot within your limits and choose to shoot action where you know the ball/players will be moving more slowly. and turn your limitation into a benefit; if you can't eliminate motion blur, use it.
my introduction to sports photography was a night time rugby match, floodlit, using an OM4Ti with a 350mm tamron mirror lens, shooting delta 3200, so i only had one stop more than the black oil. i was happy enough with my results, for a first timer (even though i don't understand rugby) - especially as i only had one roll of 3200 left, so i was limited to 37 shots.

one of the shots i got; i'd have been happier if the ball wasn't obscured though, and i'd centred the action better vertically:

The Black Oil

challengemaster wrote: »

It's one of the areas as a beginner that gear will hold you back. F/5.6 and max iso 1600 is nowhere near good enough. Shutter speed wants to be much higher, and the only way you can get a proper exposure is with f/2.8 - 4 lenses and ISO3200/6400/12800/256000/etc

I thought that before going along alright, that I'd need a 3 digit shutter, but I was a little messy in trying to apply it. Switching between the moments when the football action was slow and had more urgency. But yeah, as you suggest, even with a higher shutter, I don't think the 5.6 aperture could compensate (if that's the right word) accordingly.

challengemaster

magicbastarder wrote: »

or else you can shoot within your limits and choose to shoot action where you know the ball/players will be moving more slowly. and turn your limitation into a benefit; if you can't eliminate motion blur, use it.

The joys of subjectivity within photography - some people can consider blur a benefit, others not so much. I know if I had a card full of blurry images I'd bin them.

The Black Oil wrote: »

I thought that before going along alright, that I'd need a 3 digit shutter, but I was a little messy in trying to apply it. Switching between the moments when the football action was slow and had more urgency. But yeah, as you suggest, even with a higher shutter, I don't think the 5.6 aperture could compensate (if that's the right word) accordingly.

One thing that learners tend to get caught up with is using manual mode. Don't get me wrong, using manual is great for learners to get to terms with the camera and start getting creative. The problem arises where learners use manual mode for everything, even if it doesn't make sense to.

If you're trying to take a "properly exposed" image, then your camera will always work out the settings quicker than you will. This is where shutter/aperture priority modes come into their own. So for sports, select shutter priority, set your desired shutter speed and the camera will figure out the aperture setting to compensate for a proper exposure. It's also very simple to adjust on the fly for a beginner

magicbastarder

i don't think i ever really used manual mode on a camera where aperture priority was available.

DaireQuinlan

challengemaster wrote: »

One thing that learners tend to get caught up with is using manual mode. Don't get me wrong, using manual is great for learners to get to terms with the camera and start getting creative. The problem arises where learners use manual mode for everything, even if it doesn't make sense to.

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't think i ever really used manual mode on a camera where aperture priority was available.

++ Aperture Priority with a dash of compensation where necessary is what I shoot 99% of the time when available. Only reason I'd switch to manual is in totally off the wall situations or when I'm shooting strobe so I can stick the shutter speed at some suitable value (normally at or just below the sync speed)

cortinaG

Some great advice here as usual.
My 2 cents worth would be to take plenty of shots, vary your setting but do it the same way each time, ie. shoot at 250 f8/ 125/f8 etc. until you decide which combination works best... for you!
what I have found just recently is your internal camera settings are very important, I now get a better image than on auto by changing the parameters, the main difference being increasing color tone.
Gear is nice but not important, my first camera was a zenith B and I reckon the pics I took with that are every bit as good as what I shoot today, (still very much an amateur).
I also see very little difference in shooting raw, I must be doing something wrong, playing with the exposure and RGB setting in the download program get me as good a result as editing a raw image.
As I say, just my opinion.

CabanSail

cortinaG wrote: »

I also see very little difference in shooting raw, I must be doing something wrong, playing with the exposure and RGB setting in the download program get me as good a result as editing a raw image.

You will not see much difference with RAW if that is how you are using the files. You have to understand what a RAW file is and what you see when you view it.

The RAW file is just a set of data from which you can make an image when it has been processed whereas the JPEG is a processed image. To make things easier for you there is a small JPEG embedded in the RAW data for convenience, but that is not the image. An analogy would be if you had a box of ingredients to make a pie and on the box there was a photo of a baked pie. You now have to make that pie and it may end up looking like the cover picture or it could be quite different but you, as the cook, are making the decisions.

The Black Oil

challengemaster wrote: »

One thing that learners tend to get caught up with is using manual mode. Don't get me wrong, using manual is great for learners to get to terms with the camera and start getting creative. The problem arises where learners use manual mode for everything, even if it doesn't make sense to.

What's a typical pathway for a learner, then? Auto - P - M - A...

5uspect

The Black Oil wrote: »

What's a typical pathway for a learner, then? Auto - P - M - A...

Aperture priority and exposure priority modes.
Let the camera do most of the heavy lifting as you focus on one aspect of the shot. (Most modern dSLRs have auto ISO and decent noise characteristics)

This flower is pretty and I want shallow depth of field. Stick the camera in Av (or A or whatever) and dial in f/2.8 and take the picture.

Those cars are going really fast and I want to freeze the action. Stick the camera in Tv (or S) and dial in 1/1000 and take a picture.

Then learn about exposure compensation. This scene is dark (bright) so I need to tell the camera this information so I get the desired results. If you want to capture the darkness if the scene underexpose by a stop. Try to get used to gauging a scene in f-stops with your eye.

Only worry about manual mode if you're doing something you can easily do in exposure or aperture priority modes. What's the point in balancing the light meter when you're only setting it to the midpoint anyway?

CabanSail

The Black Oil wrote: »

What's a typical pathway for a learner, then? Auto - P - M - A...

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

There is no pathway.... use PASM as required. They all have their uses for different reasons. Understanding the task and light will help you choose.

The Black Oil

Clumsy phrasing on my part. I really meant if there's a pathway that people stumble through rather than is prescribed, so to speak. Good info, though.

adox

My tuppence worth would be to shoot in manual as early as you can. It will help you understand each process quicker and ultimately give you total control over the shot you want to take. My camera is left in manual pretty much all the time.

CabanSail

adox wrote: »

My tuppence worth would be to shoot in manual as early as you can. It will help you understand each process quicker and ultimately give you total control over the shot you want to take. My camera is left in manual pretty much all the time.

That all depends on how you are assessing the light and exposure. If you are using manual and simply changing setting until the in-built light meter is centred then all you are doing is what the camera does in the PAS modes, just slower.
I use Manual in the Studio, as there I have control of the light and the camera just needs to record it. I will also use Manual when I want consistent exposure for a set of frames eg. when planning to stitch them together later. I will also use manual when the light is difficult and then I will spot meter various things and decide on the best exposure to use. Then again it is often better to use Spot Metering and A or S if the light will vary, for example I did a recent shoot in a theatre and the lighting was constantly varying. Using Matrix Metering would be hopeless as a lot of the frame was black and then the subjects would be way over exposed as the camera tries to achieve 21% grey. Instead I set the Aperture wide open (f2.8) in A Mode and had ISO Auto on, then used the Spot Meter on the focus point to set the exposure. It is a matter of thinking through what you are trying to record and knowing about exposure and how the basics of a camera work.


PASM & RTFM

magicbastarder

5uspect wrote: »

This flower is pretty and I want shallow depth of field. Stick the camera in Av (or A or whatever) and dial in f/2.8 and take the picture.

Those cars are going really fast and I want to freeze the action. Stick the camera in Tv (or S) and dial in 1/1000 and take a picture.

one thing to remember too is that there is usually more room for the camera to manoeuvre with shutter speed (i.e. fixing the aperture in A) than there is with aperture, all other things being equal.
a typical lens will have 8 stops range in aperture, but a modern camera will have much more range in the shutter speed, with an obvious caveat that much of its range cannot be realistically handheld.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Silva360 wrote: »

In the midday sun perhaps, but think of all the opportunities on an overcast or rainy day: woodlands, flowing water, macro, portrait, moody landscapes. Endless opportunities when the skies act as a great big soft box....

For macro, the more light the better. For sure.

I think back to when I was a "beginner" (I still am as far as I am concerned), I purchased a Nikon D3100 with kit lens. After a couple of months I bought relatively cheap 55-300mm lens as I wanted the extra zoom. It was great back then, but comparing this to my current set up. I probably should have saved and spent more on a decent lens.

It's easy to buy 2-3 lenses and cover all bases, but you are better off investing in 1 really good lens and save for your second, it pays off in the long run.

Oh, and go on more boards walks when they are organised. I learned a serious amount when I went out with Oldgoat.

OldGoat

Jensen Tiny Starch wrote: »

Oh, and go on more boards walks when they are organised. I learned a serious amount when I went out with Oldgoat.

To be fair it was mostly about cigars and hipflasks.

eoglyn

OldGoat wrote: »

To be fair it was mostly about cigars and hipflasks.

Sign me up to the next outing so

Loire

Hi all.

I too am looking to get into more photography. I've dabbled a bit over the years but would be the first to admit I am a little shy on the technical aspects. Can anyone recommend a decent book / video / course?

Years ago I bought a very good flash (Nikon SB-600) and it's been in the attic for the past 4 years. I took it down last weekend and started messing with it - using the bounce pointed to the ceiling I am getting amazing photos of the kids. Just said that I'd mention it to anyone (like me) starting out - a decent flash makes a difference alright.

Thanks!
Loire.

CabanSail

Loire wrote: »

Can anyone recommend a decent book / video / course?

Many here recommend "Understanding Exposure" by Bryan Peterson. It covers the basics very well.

Joining a local camera club can be really helpful to someone wanting to improve their photography.

eoglyn

Loire wrote: »

Hi all.

I too am looking to get into more photography. I've dabbled a bit over the years but would be the first to admit I am a little shy on the technical aspects. Can anyone recommend a decent book / video / course?

Years ago I bought a very good flash (Nikon SB-600) and it's been in the attic for the past 4 years. I took it down last weekend and started messing with it - using the bounce pointed to the ceiling I am getting amazing photos of the kids. Just said that I'd mention it to anyone (like me) starting out - a decent flash makes a difference alright.

Thanks!
Loire.

When i started out i bought a ton of books - but tbh the only two worth the entry fee for beginners are the two already recommended in this thread. Understanding Exposure and the Photographer's Eye.

For flash, the key is to get that flash off the camera - a whole world of possibilities open up. strobist.com is completely free and you can download the course strobist 101 as a pdf, but you need the basics before you start it.

A good short course for beginners can be a great kick start, depending on where you are someone might be able to recommend. Also your local camera club are usually welcoming to complete newbies and will run courses or provide training, they don't suit everyone but worth having a think about.

Loire

Thanks guys - I'll get the 2 books and look into camera clubs so!

Tiriel

Loire wrote: »

Thanks guys - I'll get the 2 books and look into camera clubs so!

If you're in Cork there are a few clubs and there's also a Street Photography Group that are quite active

The Strawman Argument

Hey guys, was gonna start a thread but maybe this is the place to go with it.

I'm travelling a bit around Eastern Europe for a month or two coming up and, eh, for some reason or another I decided it'd be a fun challenge to stick exclusively to taking photos with film. That way I'd put a bit more effort into finding things worth photographing rather than just snapping everything mindlessly and learn about photography in the process. Started to geek out a bit once I got into reading everything and got myself a manual camera and a few lenses for 50 euro (Praktica MLT5B*, Carl Zeiss Tessar 50mm F2.8, a 60-200mm and a 70-300mm, also got a teleconverter, cases for everything and some other yokes). From what I can see, it's all in very good condition, haven't tested it fully yet though.
Potentially looking at getting a developing kit afterwards, I'm really far more interested in the technical stuff than taking great photos.

The plan is to take some photos and stuff before I go just to make sure it's all okay and then go with just the 50mm lens. What I was wondering though, is whether I'd need something with a higher maximum aperture than 2.8 for that kind of general usage? I initially thought that lens was a bit dodgy because the image quality was a bit blurred at best, but this review clarified it for me a bit (basically it gets a bit blurry as you approach it's maximum aperture level). I wouldn't be too keen on spending much on another lens but if this one is not at all versatile, I guess I'd have to.

Another thing I was wondering was whether there are any popular adaptors for M42 cameras to use other lenses with?


* I know, it's gonna be one hell of a weight to be lugging around

CabanSail

Probably best to post the gear specific stuff in the Cameras and Accessories sub-forum.

Taking away a fully manual camera is a good way to learn about exposure.

A lot of 50mm lenses are f1.8 or f1.4 but f2.8 is still OK. Let us know how you go.