Horrible f##king experience

djflawless

Just back from giving a statement to the guards to tell how I'm just after having my shotgun and rifle stolen
Felt like i was being interrogated to be honest
Anyone know what procedure follows now??

juice1304

Thats sux man, did they break into the house and get through the safe?

I hope that they are recovered undamaged.

djflawless

juice1304 wrote: »

Thats sux man, did they break into the house and get through the safe?

I hope that they are recovered undamaged.

Got thru the back door Saturday night and took the time to have a root around the house. found the keys. Got into the safe.
All very suspicious.
Rifle is no good to them as I have the bolt, magazine, and all ammo for both guns stored in various locations in the house
May they die roaring the scumbags

oldtart

djflawless wrote: »

Got thru the back door Saturday night and took the time to have a root around the house. found the keys. Got into the safe.
All very suspicious.
Rifle is no good to them as I have the bolt, magazine, and all ammo for both guns stored in various locations in the house
May they die roaring the scumbags

Will they allow you to have any firearms again, as I don't suppose they were happy with the keys left in the house ?

Cass

Dirty f**king scummers. The violation alone of them being in your house.

Well done on keeping the bolt/mags, etc separate. All they have now is a stick with a bit of piping attached. Shows they knew nothing about the guns if they still took them without the bolt, etc.

Do you mind me asking, did they go after the guns or just a case of finding the safes and having a go. IOW did they come prepared to break into a safe? I've seen other lads (very few thankfully) that had the best security you can provide but the steaming piles of sh*t that broke in came well prepared.

As far as i can remember the couple of lads that went through the same thing did not have too much bother. Once their security was in place and being utilised they have done their part and kept to the conditions of the license (secure accommodation, etc). One, cannot think now who it was, had new guns got within 6 months. This included getting payment on his insurance, applying for the new guns, getting the licenses and collecting the guns.


Remember that the security we put is will never keep the guns 100% safe. If someone comes prepared and really wants the guns they will get them. The best we can do is make it as hard as possible for them to achieve this, and it sounds like you done your part.

djflawless

Few bits moved.some small value items missing so presuming there stolen too.
Everything hidden but from what my guesswork is, they were looking in presses for cash and taking some tools from hall in front of press under the stairs.seen the safe and or found the safe keys in the kitchen cabinet and just bolted with that kinda payoff

Steve012

Makes ye double think about security all the same. I wonder if there is an additional charge to breaking and entering (while the stealing of firearms is involved), as apposed to taking car keys and jewelry?.

Hope you get them back man, and have no problems continuing your sport.

Cheeky scum..

djflawless

Yeah they told me that if anyone is caught for it it will be a charge of forcible entry,tresspass, and some other stuff as well

Gormley85

djflawless wrote: »

Just back from giving a statement to the guards to tell how I'm just after having my shotgun and rifle stolen
Felt like i was being interrogated to be honest
Anyone know what procedure follows now??

Im sure its probably different from station to station, but the one or two lads I know that had firearms robbed all got a bollicking at the station and told to up the security a notch or two and they got new licences again without too much hassle. So hopefully you will be the same

djflawless

Jesus with the help of god I won't have too much hassle.and hope the scum is caught and "dealt" with

Cass

The "good" part (if there is such a thing) is that the law and FCA1 ask have you the appropriate security measures in place. That is your responsibility to know the minimum level of security needed for the amount and type of guns you own.

The Gardaí are then tasked with checking this before you are issued your licenses. If they fail to do so, and accept your word, or simply fail to check you are in a sense (and there is probably a better word) vindicated of responsibility. IOW you done everything the law required, and the Super did not specify a higher level of security.

The keys of the gun need only be in a secure spot (whether that is on your person, in a separate safe, hidden in the sock drawer, etc) and not accessible or known to anyone not licensed on the firearms. However this is no mentioned in the Secure SI. Only about safes, alarms, etc. Nothing about the keys.

As for the scum that done it, if they are caught they will (guessing here as i'm not a solicitor) face breaking & entering charges, theft, etc. and if they still have the guns possession of unlicensed firearms (which can carry up to 7 years and €25k in fines), if they don't then it's theft of firearms. Not really interested in getting into a debate on the leniency of the Judiciary in such matters, but they won't walk away from it.

Might be no harm to contact a few local dealers, and give them the details of the guns. In case the scum that robbed you tries to go and get a replacement bolt. Not an easy task even with a license, but just to do your due diligence. It also gets the word of them out there. No sure how comfortable you might be with that, but it's only a suggestion.

Grizzly 45

Gormley85 wrote: »

Im sure its probably different from station to station, but the one or two lads I know that had firearms robbed all got a bollicking at the station and told to up the security a notch or two and they got new licences again without too much hassle. So hopefully you will be the same

Thats great PR and customer service from AGS, not mind a violation of their customer charter..Be a victim of crime and get a bollocking.Wonder does the same station bollock out victims of rape for walking down the street in provocative clothing without a male chaperone???:mad: No matter what happens or the effects you are a victim and should be accorded the same respect and consideration as any other crime victim.

djflawless

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thats great PR and customer service from AGS, not mind a violation of their customer charter..Be a victim of crime and get a bollocking.Wonder does the same station bollock out victims of rape for walking down the street in provocative clothing without a male chaperone???:mad: No matter what happens or the effects you are a victim and should be accorded the same respect and consideration as any other crime victim.

I will say one thing.apart from the anger and frustration of some scumbag being in my property. thru my personal belongings, and stealing my lively hood, having to sit in a small room with a guard having to battle my case and prove I'm innocent in an interrogation style interview just topped the lot

fabwing

Hi, I feel for you right now, your house and personal belongings but in time things will get better , I hope you get all sorted soon and these scum bags will get caught.

djflawless wrote: »

I will say one thing.apart from the anger and frustration of some scumbag being in my property. thru my personal belongings, and stealing my lively hood, having to sit in a small room with a guard having to battle my case and prove I'm innocent in an interrogation style interview just topped the lot

cz .17

Well there as fabwing said I feel for ya know lad had the same situation myself before Christmas but they had just seen my safe but I must have disturbed them while coming in the yard and luckily nothing was taken but it's a very frustrating thing knowing some scumbag was in around you're house going through you're belongings and hope the scumbags who did this are caught not the type of people you need roaming free

dodderangler

Jesus mate that's fcukin awful.
Good thinking on keeping bolt and ammo separate. I also do the same and only I know their location.
The shotgun will probably be given to another scumbag or sold to another scumbag. ( hopefully they're caught before that)
With the rifle it's about as useful as a hurl but scumbags won't cop that.
Really hope this has a happy ending with the returns of your guns and other possessions.
Keep us updated mate and keep a positive mind.

wirehairmax

Another here who has been in your shoes about 3 years ago. I wouldn't like to go through all that again. One tip I would like to give you is to keep a good record of all your dealings with the Gardai. Put as much as you can in writing and it's worthwhile keeping a diary of all conversations had. It was a great help to me when I wasn't making progress getting new licences as once it's in writing they have to respond to you. When handing in new applications, get a signed receipt also. In the end I had a superintendent and 3 sergeants who knew me an awful lot better and I also had a sergeants and two detectives personal mobile numbers with instructions to call them if I ever had hassle with anything again. Be polite but very very firm with them and let them know from the off that you were not at fault and will not tolerate being treated like the criminal.

bravestar

The charges they may face would be burglary and if still in possession of the firearms, firearms related charges depending on the circumstances when they were arrested. There is no extra offence for taking firearms while committing a burglary. The firearms would be treated the same as any other object taken from the house.

As for giving your statement OP, while I wasn't there so can't comment on it specifically, it is the member of AGS job the get as much of the facts as he can and while this can be upsetting for a victim, it has to be done. From experience, it can be truly shocking the things a person fails to voluntarily mention, not deliberately I might add, when giving a statement. This can be tough on the victim and is a delicate balancing act.

I'm sorry you had to go through any of this and hope you get back to your shooting as soon as possible.

hexosan

Cass wrote: »

The "good" part (if there is such a thing) is that the law and FCA1 ask have you the appropriate security measures in place. That is your responsibility to know the minimum level of security needed for the amount and type of guns you own.

The Gardaí are then tasked with checking this before you are issued your licenses. If they fail to do so, and accept your word, or simply fail to check you are in a sense (and there is probably a better word) vindicated of responsibility. IOW you done everything the law required, and the Super did not specify a higher level of security.

I think your incorrect here Cass, once you tick the box confirming you've complied with the secure storage section of the act your stating that your aware of the law, the storage conditions and the penalties. There is then no obligation on Gardaí to inspect the premises. I think this was introduced at the time when there was complaints of Gardaí needing warrants to enter houses.

Gormley85

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thats great PR and customer service from AGS, not mind a violation of their customer charter..Be a victim of crime and get a bollocking.Wonder does the same station bollock out victims of rape for walking down the street in provocative clothing without a male chaperone???:mad: No matter what happens or the effects you are a victim and should be accorded the same respect and consideration as any other crime victim.

Im not a Garda, but I would imagine that when a firearm goes walkies the Super will probably have a lot of questions to answer and paperwork to do- and if someone ends up getting shot with that firearm then he's in for a world of pain. Id say thats why they get pissed off when firearms are robbed compared to say, well in your example, girls getting raped.

Grizzly 45

Gormley85 wrote: »

Im not a Garda, but I would imagine that when a firearm goes walkies the Super will probably have a lot of questions to answer and paperwork to do- and if someone ends up getting shot with that firearm then he's in for a world of pain. Id say thats why they get pissed off when firearms are robbed compared to say, well in your example, girls getting raped.

Does the term "innocent until proven guilty"hold much weight anymore?It is still a crime and the fact that a firearm was stolen is no reason to behave to the victim like you are some little Nazi.Bollocking out people for having their property stolen ,unless they were grossly negligent,like leaving it out in a barn ,or whatever,is uncalled for not to mind utterly unprofessional and also violates the Garda own customer charter and code of ethics,as laughable as those two documents might be on a daily basis...Crime is crime no matter what,and it creates paperwork and shows up badly in any division.So if there isa rapist in someones area by the same logic the Super could yell at the rape victim that it was her fault for walking down a dark alley or wearing a short skirt.Also, taking a "hard man" attitue in interrogation of anyone is about as effective as hitting the interrogated with a rubber hose these days.Your confession could be thrown out or seriously questioned if you can prove it was made under duress.The Ian Bailey affair currently in the court is a fine example of how well that kind of attiude and methods work.

Sparks

Steve012 wrote: »

I wonder if there is an additional charge to breaking and entering (while the stealing of firearms is involved), as apposed to taking car keys and jewelry?

Possession of an unlicenced firearm. Five years in jail, ten grand in fines. Per firearm. Unless it was restricted, in which case seven years in jail, twenty in fines.

Now, whether or not they'd ever see that in court...

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Does the term "innocent until proven guilty"hold much weight anymore?

You might want to reread the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 in detail. "innocent until proven guilty" (a) doesn't apply to the Gardai, but to the Courts; and (b) apparently isn't a legal principle in every case anyway.

Also, isn't it an American thing, not an Irish thing?

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

You might want to reread the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 in detail. "innocent until proven guilty" (a) doesn't apply to the Gardai, but to the Courts; and (b) apparently isn't a legal principle in every case anyway.

Also, isn't it an American thing, not an Irish thing?[

No its a principle of English common law going back to Magna Carta on which most of the Western worlds law system is based upon.Bar the French Code Napoleon In France,Spain[?] and Italy.in which you are presumed guilty until a magistrate investigates the case and weighs the evidence.
So unless we have become French over night that principle holds in our judical system or should.Seeing that AGS is part of that system they are beholden to the same principle,and even if not,they violated their own Garda charter of service.

From the Garda Customer charter.

We aim to be courteous, helpful, respectful
and professional. If you are upset about a
crime or other traumatic incident, we will
respond to your needs in a caring and
sensitive manner

When you report a crime we will investigate
the matter and help to bring those responsible
to justice. We do this by gathering all of the
evidence surrounding the incident in a fair,
honest and impartial manner


All members of the Garda Síochána will treat
victims with dignity and respect - whatever
your gender, race, religious beliefs, ethnic
origin, sexual orientation, age, nationality,
disability, economic circumstances, marital
or family status or if you are a member of
the Traveller community.
The welfare and support of victims are
central to our partnership with community
groups, statutory agencies and voluntary
organisations.


Dont see any notes saying "Irish firearms cert holders are exempt from all this when their guns are pinched ,because they are dangerous,devious shifty chacters who couldnt be trusted to be straight,after us vetting them too.":p

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So unless we have become French over night that principle holds in our judical system or should.Seeing that AGS is part of that system they are beholden to the same principle

It's a nice idea, but like I said, the 1990 Act, section 9(4), 9(5) and 9(6) don't have that principle; you get arrested, jailed and then prove to the court that you were innocent. The defamation act is even worse.

And the Gardai can't operate on that principle or they could never even interview a suspect, let alone arrest them, and as you can't prove guilt or innocence until you go to court, the whole principle itself can't be applied blindly and without nuance.

All of which translates to: if you're being interviewed about your firearms being stolen, they're probably going to ask hard questions, and it may not be possible to not take offence; and that's assuming the AGS is doing everything perfectly competently. But that doesn't mean it's a travesty or that it's illegal. Stolen firearms are a serious thing, they have to be investigated fully. The discomfort and offence that causes - assuming the AGS do everything properly, no free passes being awarded here - is the fault of the scum who broke into your home, not the AGS.

And yeah, I've had it happen to me, though they didn't get the rifles. It sucks and I never want to do it again, but I was still friends with my FO afterwards. Now if he'd not been professional about it, it might be been a different story. So that might be the reason for people having different experiences.

Grizzly 45

And if you read that act there is still a presumption of innocence as you can give an explanation as to why you are carrying said weapon.You could have found it lying on the street and not to alarm the general public put it in your pocket and were going to the garda station to surrender it and report it like a good citizen.[although proably not adviseable as one lad found out in the UK with a sawn off shotgun chucked into his back garden a few years ago] Laws and application thereof is never black and white as you well know sparks.

A

ll of which translates to: if you're being interviewed about your firearms being stolen, they're probably going to ask hard questions, and it may not be possible to not take offence; and that's assuming the AGS is doing everything perfectly competently. But that doesn't mean it's a travesty or that it's illegal. Stolen firearms are a serious thing, they have to be investigated fully. The discomfort and offence that causes - assuming the AGS do everything properly, no free passes being awarded here - is the fault of the scum who broke into your home, not the AGS.

No one is saying they cant ask questions ,hard or otherwise.Its the MANNER in which they are bein asked or being demanded,that dedicates the professionalism or unprofessionalism of the interviewing officer and in the OPs case sounded like a very unprofessional officer. from my experiance of dealing with AGS in intrviews it has ranged from utterly pleasent and cordial to downright abusive,prersonally insulting and a shouting match with a very unprofessional now cheif superintendant who made his name interrogating PIRA suspects.Unfortuneatly his manner and attitude followed him up the ranks and interviewing somone about a gun dealership does not require the same manner as who hid a load of Semtex in the back hay barn.Not to mind any hardned criminal would laugh at the "mr Nice & mr Nasty" approach to questioning.
Nor does "bollocking out two lads" by a senior officer sound very professional.We dont know the full story there,but it doesnt sound a very professional manner either.
This is my point,if you profess to be professional,at least try and act like it when dealing with the public who are traumatised by events and just because you have had your guns nicked doesnt automatically mean you arranged it for whatever reason.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And if you read that act there is still a presumption of innocence as you can give an explanation as to why you are carrying said weapon.

Grizz, if there was a presumption of innocence, the Garda who arrested you would have to prove to the court that you were guilty; instead you are proving to the court that you are innocent. Being allowed to defend yourself, that's not the same thing as being presumed innocent.

Its the MANNER in which they are bein asked or being demanded,that dedicates the professionalism or unprofessionalism of the interviewing officer

Yes, but:

the OPs case sounded like a very unprofessional officer

The OP's case sounds like it could be; or it could be that - like me - he was just so ticked off at being broken into that he won't get a good handle on it for a while. That's just human nature. And it's completely justifiable. But it can screw up your perceptions for a short while. Were I the OP and I still felt that way in a week, then I'd talk to GSOC, but honestly, I wouldn't do anything but recover for that week first (hell, if for no other reason than being burgled will completely **** over your mellow vibe).

from my experiance of dealing with AGS

Grizz, I think we all know you've had a rather unpleasant experience there, but that doesn't really apply to this case unless it's the same AGS officer in both cases. Can an AGS officer be an unprofessional asshat? As the kids say, "well, duh". Was this AGS officer an unprofessional asshat? I don't know, nor do you, and the OP might not feel as bad about it in a week or so. That's not too long to wait before going after someone's pension, wouldn't you agree?

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Grizz, if there was a presumption of innocence, the Garda who arrested you would have to prove to the court that you were guilty; instead you are proving to the court that you are innocent. Being allowed to defend yourself, that's not the same thing as being presumed innocent.

And thats where who,what,where,when,why,how comes into play as well as circumstances.Remember,its in the officers opinion as to whether a crime is has been comitted that he has grounds for arrest or not.He might have to arrest you butwhether he procceeds with a charge of wrongdoing is another matter too.

he OP's case sounds like it could be; or it could be that - like me - he was just so ticked off at being broken into that he won't get a good handle on it for a while. That's just human nature. And it's completely justifiable. But it can screw up your perceptions for a short while.

Indeed it is and its proably better to answer any such questions at a later date when you have calmed down and are a bit more in control.But if you are then being treated as a suspect,different story.

Grizz, I think we all know you've had a rather unpleasant experience there, but that doesn't really apply to this case unless it's the same AGS officer in both cases

.

Missing my point...I'm stating that its not all police are like that,and its the professionalism or unprofessionalism that gives your future view .Hence the reason I said,I've had pleasent experiances of dealing with them too.More than the one bad experiance too I might add.Credit where it is due!

AGS officer an unprofessional asshat? I don't know, nor do you, and the OP might not feel as bad about it in a week or so. That's not too long to wait before going after someone's pension, wouldn't you agree?

Well, we have to take his word for that the officer was unprofessional ,otherwise would he be upset and posting about it here?And yeah ,I'm not immune to break ins too,we've had a few of them and only one [thankfully] firearm stolen,but no one ever gave us the 3rd degree about it.
What he does is up to him,and we can only speculate on both cases here but I would resent personally being included straight away as a suspect without some proper evidence or being" bollocked out" for a situation that [assuming the other two lads in the previous post were not doing anything utterly stupid with their guns] was beyond my control and despite all whatever security procedures and compliance required happened anyway.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well, we have to take his word for that the officer was unprofessional ,otherwise would he be upset and posting about it here?

I'm not even talking about someone's word. All I know is, if you asked me on the day we were done over if my local FO had been perfect, I'd have ranted on about how he asked me this and asked me that and could he not see X and Y and why the hell would he ask such-and-such. I was... miffed. Family home robbed, the mother's engagement ring and other sentimental stuff nicked, every room thrashed, and someone might have walked in on them and gotten walloped and it was random chance that didn't happen. That sort of thing messes with your headspace, you know this.

But if you asked me a week later if he'd been professional, I'd have said yes. He was at the house five minutes after the phone call with two others in tow, they were straightforward, they asked what in retrospect were obvious questions (even if at the time they annoyed me), and he checked in with me a while later to see how we were doing. He gave advice on how to beef up security and where the weak points were, and we haven't ever had a problem since.

But, like I said, on the day? And for a few days afterwards? Nope, I'd have said he was a mean-spirited bollix and the man wouldn't have deserved it. And I'd have felt like a right heel for having said it a few days later, even though at the time it would have felt completely correct and justified.

That's all I'm saying here. Take a little time, get your headspace back. And then, if you think he was unprofessional (and that's not in the realm of science fiction by any means), then you file the complaint. But if you think differently a few days later, you haven't done anything you'd have to say sorry over. Or as my father keeps putting it, The first thing to do, is do nothing.

bravestar

Sparks wrote: »

Possession of an unlicenced firearm. Five years in jail, ten grand in fines. Per firearm. Unless it was restricted, in which case seven years in jail, twenty in fines.

Now, whether or not they'd ever see that in court...

That would only happen if they were found in possession of the firearm. They would not be automatically charged with that just because a firearm was taken during a burglary which they have committed.

Sparks

bravestar wrote: »

That would only happen if they were found in possession of the firearm. They would not be automatically charged with that just because a firearm was taken during a burglary which they have committed.

See, there you go with presumption of innocence again. Yeeesh. :P

djflawless

So just had scenes of crime up and had the guy check for prints etc
Towards AGS yesterday, he was a gent.
Very understanding. didn't make it feel like he was asking were we OK just for his wage

He also said he sees no reason that I should be refused or delayed in getting a new gun and licence, as he commented on how secure I had the safe.it was just unlucky they got the keys.
So here's hoping anyway!

bravestar

Sparks wrote: »

See, there you go with presumption of innocence again. Yeeesh. :P

Didn't get that at first but read through what you and grizz have been discussing and regarding your quoted act, you are right. There are certain crimes where the burden of proof is on the accused, not on AGS. Off the top of my head, possession of stolen property is another such offence. Think it's sec 18 theft and fraud offences act.

fabwing

Did you have a house alarm and was it set , they usually don't bother with houses with alarms they go to the next house without an alarm, you can pm me if you think this question is a private matter.

djflawless wrote: »

So just had scenes of crime up and had the guy check for prints etc
Towards AGS yesterday, he was a gent.
Very understanding. didn't make it feel like he was asking were we OK just for his wage

He also said he sees no reason that I should be refused or delayed in getting a new gun and licence, as he commented on how secure I had the safe.it was just unlucky they got the keys.
So here's hoping anyway!

moreau118

i know a lad who had his rifle stolen out of his jeep as he was having a pint and got another licence so id say you should have no problem seeing as u were doing everything by the book and the lad i new was a moron

thetl

bravestar wrote: »

That would only happen if they were found in possession of the firearm. They would not be automatically charged with that just because a firearm was taken during a burglary which they have committed.

Well known scumbag with 57 previous convictions was caught with a sawn off shotgun in dublin which had been in circulation for 2 years after been stolen from blessington and he got a suspended sentence because he was off drugs,what type of deterrent is that no wonder guns are a target

BattleCorp

moreau118 wrote: »

i know a lad who had his rifle stolen out of his jeep as he was having a pint and got another licence so id say you should have no problem seeing as u were doing everything by the book and the lad i new was a moron

Yer man shouldn't be allowed to have a telly licence, let alone a firearm licence after that.

djflawless

House isn't alarmed
But its in an estate where I can't piss sideways without a neighbour catching me.unfortunately none noticed anything on the night.
Amazing how people get amnesia or are fast asleep when things really matter...
Terrible day when I can go take drugs for awhile, get off them and automatically get a get out of jail free card

bravestar

thetl wrote: »

Well known scumbag with 57 previous convictions was caught with a sawn off shotgun in dublin which had been in circulation for 2 years after been stolen from blessington and he got a suspended sentence because he was off drugs,what type of deterrent is that no wonder guns are a target

I don't see how that has anything to do with what I said and what you quoted. I never said anything about jail time, just what a person might be charged with.

Are you actually asking me what type of deterrent it is? If you are, then my answer is, none whatsoever. You should be asking the judge who handed out that sentence that question. You do realise that AGS do not hand out sentences don't you?

I also do not personally believe that guns are a target in 99. 9% of cases.

Grizzly 45

Then you gotta ask where the judges going to put these people?

bravestar

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Then you gotta ask where the judges going to put these people?

My personal preference is for the Mariana trench....
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench

CJhaughey

bravestar wrote: »

My personal preference is for the Mariana trench....
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench

Only one problem with that, sh1t floats.

Grizzly 45

bravestar wrote: »

My personal preference is for the Mariana trench....
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench

Failing that,dont we have some small islands with SFA growing on them,horrible weather,bugger all else bar rocks ,and poor grass a few miles off our West coast?? Why not take one of these islands and turn it into a prision colony ala "Escape from New York" 24/7/365 exclusion zone to one mile from the island
Let the Atlanticweather and tides be the gaurdian,and in the good weather stick up and out a few gunships and patrol boats to shoot or destroy anything floating or flying within one mile of said island?Be alot cheaper methinks than building new jails on the taxpayer and plenty of room too for a criminal pouplation. A sort of Atlantic gulag?