Ireland vs England, Sunday 1st March 3pm; RTE/BBC

cson

.ak wrote: »

Yeah that's a fair point, however it does matter where that weight is situated. Toner and Ross aren't very good carriers. We use our openside and 8 as primary, so really when you play a game with Murphy and TOD in those roles you're at a disadvantage. As a side note I thought they were incredible yesterday, considering what was asked of them, but to put in context on tod's first carry we got gobbled up. Guys like vinny, Haskell, dousatoir, picamoles are all big units and carry the weight where it's needed most. Out of our first choice backrow only sob has the weight and dynamism to break the gain line. We have some monster front rows but we don't produce big flankers like other countries do.

Dusautoir is pretty light for a modern day flanker; he gives up at least a stone to all of those mentioned in the same sentence. Phenomenal athlete though.

Thought the experience told in the end; think a stat was knocking about that the Irish starting XV had more caps than the entire English squad combined. You could tell that from the way Ireland just did the right things 99% of the time - experience.

The drop off when Madigan came on was noticeable though; thought he was desperate. Difficult game to come into but you simply have to be better/we need to start getting a solid #2 10 in place because teams will target Sexton.

aimee1

thomond2006 wrote: »

I really don't think they will. Maybe records mean nothing but France's recent record against England is awful, home or away. The best we can hope for is they keep the score down.

JS will make sure they do

leakyboots

Was at this, great game, wonderful atmosphere.

Standout performers were Sexton, Best (needed a good performance), Henshaw. Thought Zebo (especially in the first half), TOD, Murphy (hold my hands up on him, was worried before the game), Toner were excellent too. POC and Murray to their usual high standards. Quick shoutout for Mike Ross too, he's been brilliant in the scrum.

I thought Rob Kearney wasn't great, his counter-running is gone very stale these days. Payne is solid but offers no spark and Tommy Bowe was quiet for the third match in a row, but once again, very little commentary on his form - Zebo has comfortably outperformed him in every match. On Bowe - I had very good seats down the front and was able to see him up close for the first half - his kick chase is very poor I thought, unlike say Kearney or Zebo who throw themselves into the air for it. He seems reluctant to go for it. Great work for the Vunipola break though has to be said, excellent positioning.

I'm going to echo Thomond and a few others here - I still think we'll be in trouble when Plan A doesn't work. We were going backward at a rate of knots in the second half when England ramped up the defensive pressure and never looked like breaking them.

Also, Felix at 23 - what happens if Payne goes off injured in the 1st minute v Wales - an entire game with Felix on the wing, Bowe in the centre? Fitz and particularly Earls are in electric form, there simply has to be a place for one of them in the 23, or ideally in the 15.

This probably reads as being negative but consider them caveats with future matches in mind, we were clinical and composed. We're just looking for the cherry on top now.

.ak

cson wrote: »

Dusautoir is pretty light for a modern day flanker; he gives up at least a stone to all of those mentioned in the same sentence. Phenomenal athlete though.

Thought the experience told in the end; think a stat was knocking about that the Irish starting XV had more caps than the entire English squad combined. You could tell that from the way Ireland just did the right things 99% of the time - experience.

The drop off when Madigan came on was noticeable though; thought he was desperate. Difficult game to come into but you simply have to be better/we need to start getting a solid #2 10 in place because teams will target Sexton.

Madigan's kicking from hand was, and always has been, terrible. But I felt with ball in hand he was very good. He tried to play too much like johnny and not enough like himself.

English Lurker

.ak wrote: »

Yeah that's a fair point, however it does matter where that weight is situated. Toner and Ross aren't very good carriers. We use our openside and 8 as primary, so really when you play a game with Murphy and TOD in those roles you're at a disadvantage. As a side note I thought they were incredible yesterday, considering what was asked of them, but to put in context on tod's first carry we got gobbled up. Guys like vinny, Haskell, dousatoir, picamoles are all big units and carry the weight where it's needed most. Out of our first choice backrow only sob has the weight and dynamism to break the gain line. We have some monster front rows but we don't produce big flankers like other countries do.

And we can't get our carrying game going that well if we struggle to break down the opposition's fringe defence and get an edge on up front, which didn't happen, in no small part due to Toner (a smaller man wouldn't have stolen that 5m lineout), Ross, Best (heavier, more compact man than Hartley) and friends. We also suffered from being outmuscled outside 12 more than once.

I don't want to write off the effects of having TOD and Murphy instead of SOB and Heaslip for you - it clearly will have an impact, particularly on your attack where you suddenly become short of icebreakers - but I don't think it makes you a smaller team.

And you've got a monster sized flanker, if Schmidt cares to use him. One wouldn't question his reasons for doing so when everything's going so well, but Henderson at 6 is a (un)natural(y big) answer to Ireland's ball-carrying problems when short of SOB and its entirely Schmidt's choice to omit him. Seen various suggestions on here that his pre-match attention to detail leaves something to be desired - if I was Schmidt, I'd fit him with one of those electro-shock collars if that's what it took to break him of it.

Buer

Madigan didn't have a great game when he came on but didn't lack for effort. He tackled well and, when he took contact, fought for a couple of yards he shouldn't have made. But his general play just isn't up to scratch. The kick on the full missed by a good bit and his line kicking was very conservative. You got the impression that he was very nervous about missing touch again.

Interested Observer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I didn't understand them taking 3 points at 13 points down.

There was plenty of time left, was a good call imo.

MeheeHohee

.ak wrote: »

Yeah that's a fair point, however it does matter where that weight is situated. Toner and Ross aren't very good carriers. We use our openside and 8 as primary, so really when you play a game with Murphy and TOD in those roles you're at a disadvantage. As a side note I thought they were incredible yesterday, considering what was asked of them, but to put in context on tod's first carry we got gobbled up. Guys like vinny, Haskell, dousatoir, picamoles are all big units and carry the weight where it's needed most. Out of our first choice backrow only sob has the weight and dynamism to break the gain line. We have some monster front rows but we don't produce big flankers like other countries do.

TOD and Jordi Murphy are both heavier than Dusautoir? Also would see Tommy as a better ball carrier than him at the moment IMHO.

bilston

.ak wrote: »

The only players that I thought were off the boil was Bowe and Payne. The latter for me just can't seem to offer any distribution or fix defenders, as a 13 he needs to be straightening, not running arcs into defenders.

I thought Payne was very good myself. His defence was rock solid amd he made yarfs in every contact situation. Bowe worked hard for the team but has had better days. I was disappointed by Madigan though, although it's unfair to compare him to Sexton who is miles ahead of him.

awec

English Lurker wrote: »

And you've got a monster sized flanker, if Schmidt cares to use him. One wouldn't question his reasons for doing so when everything's going so well, but Henderson at 6 is a (un)natural(y big) answer to Ireland's ball-carrying problems when short of SOB and its entirely Schmidt's choice to omit him. Seen various suggestions on here that his pre-match attention to detail leaves something to be desired - if I was Schmidt, I'd fit him with one of those electro-shock collars if that's what it took to break him of it.

Damn right lurker. Ulster fans have said all along he is a far better player at 6 than lock where his ball carrying skills are wasted.

IMO it will be a massive shame if Henderson is pigeon holed into the second row, especially because he is Ulsters best 6 by a distance. A bigger travesty than Payne at 13 if it becomes a long term thing.

Happyman42

aimee1 wrote: »

There is a great pic on irish times website of that steal. POM and Toner in the air.

Where? Was looking for it there and can't see it. :mad:

Mahatma Geansai

.ak wrote: »

Madigan's kicking from hand was, and always has been, terrible. But I felt with ball in hand he was very good. He tried to play too much like johnny and not enough like himself.

He's the least suited of all our OHs to Joe's gameplan. I wouldn't be surprised to see him usurped by Keatley, due to his greater control of the game from 10. I think he'd be best suited turning his attention to 12.

shuffol

I thought England made a mistake not going for points with the penalty with a minute left. If they scored it the game would've restarted and they'd have a shot at a draw. Once they kicked for touch the clock was gone.

bilston

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

He's the least suited of all our OHs to Joe's gameplan. I wouldn't be surprised to see him usurped by Keatley, due to his greater control of the game from 10. I think he'd be best suited turning his attention to 12.

I was thinking about this though. Sexton is a brillant kicker of the ball, Madigan isn't (obviously a great place kicker), however Jackson is a great passer of the ball but his territorial kicking needs work so I don't think he suits Schmidt's gameplan either which leaves Keatley or puts a lot of pressure on Murray.

crisco10

shuffol wrote: »

I thought England made a mistake not going for points with the penalty with a minute left. If they scored it the game would've restarted and they'd have a shot at a draw. Once they kicked for touch the clock was gone.

Would have limited them to a draw tho. A quick try would have given them a shout at another try for the win. Very long shot but more positive.

PS: I too cant find that pic in the Irish times!

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

He's the least suited of all our OHs to Joe's gameplan. I wouldn't be surprised to see him usurped by Keatley, due to his greater control of the game from 10. I think he'd be best suited turning his attention to 12.

Well incidentally he looked like coming on for henshaw at one stage so his versatility will probably keep him on the bench.

crisco10

.ak wrote: »

Well incidentally he looked like coming on for henshaw at one stage so his versatility will probably keep him on the bench.

In many ways, he is perfectly suited to the 22 Jersey. Look at the Italy game, Schmidt preferred to keep Mads on the bench and parachute Keatley into starting role.

Bridge93

England

.ak wrote: »

Yeah that's a fair point, however it does matter where that weight is situated. Toner and Ross aren't very good carriers. We use our openside and 8 as primary, so really when you play a game with Murphy and TOD in those roles you're at a disadvantage. As a side note I thought they were incredible yesterday, considering what was asked of them, but to put in context on tod's first carry we got gobbled up. Guys like vinny, Haskell, dousatoir, picamoles are all big units and carry the weight where it's needed most. Out of our first choice backrow only sob has the weight and dynamism to break the gain line. We have some monster front rows but we don't produce big flankers like other countries do.

His name his Ian Henderson and he looks about 12 years old. Not built like one mind you! Although I see his future for Ireland at lock where he is probably more needed.

Interested Observer

Interested Observer wrote: »

There was plenty of time left, was a good call imo.

13 minutes left when the kick was taken.

If they construct another 3 point opportunity within the next 3 minutes they are still left needing to score twice (and one of those scores being a try) to win the game in 10 minutes.

Unless they thought Ireland would cough up 4 penalties inside 13 minutes in a game where their discipline had been excellent.

Just couldn't make sense of it. Had it been on 60mins, maybe, but not when you're needing just a little under point a minute remaining.

Mahatma Geansai

.ak wrote: »

Well incidentally he looked like coming on for henshaw at one stage so his versatility will probably keep him on the bench.

He doesn't offer significantly more versatility than Keatley is the thing. Versatility from our 22 wouldn't be as essential with Fitz at 23 and Earls at 13 anyway.

slingerz

bilston wrote: »

I was thinking about this though. Sexton is a brillant kicker of the ball, Madigan isn't (obviously a great place kicker), however Jackson is a great passer of the ball but his territorial kicking needs work so I don't think he suits Schmidt's gameplan either which leaves Keatley or puts a lot of pressure on Murray.

TBF I reckon Hanrahan is the most akin to Sexton in terms of the way he plays the game and is the only one with the potential to reach the same level as Sexton over time. Pity Munster arent keeping him and using him at 10 full time

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

He doesn't offer significantly more versatility than Keatley is the thing. Versatility from our 22 wouldn't be as essential with Fitz at 23 and Earls at 13 anyway.

I think he does, if you look at the total caps in other positions Madigan actually offers a lot more experience in other positions. But kicking aside I thought he offered great impact. Really hit the line well, gained yards and distributed well. He actually needed to trust his own game a little more:

aimee1

crisco10 wrote: »

Would have limited them to a draw tho. A quick try would have given them a shout at another try for the win. Very long shot but more positive.

PS: I too cant find that pic in the Irish times!

Jump.jpg

Bridge93

England

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

He doesn't offer significantly more versatility than Keatley is the thing. Versatility from our 22 wouldn't be as essential with Fitz at 23 and Earls at 13 anyway.

If Keatley was comfortably the better 10 I would agree. But when there's not a huge amount between them and they're only going to come on if Sexton is injured I feel the more versatility the 22 has elsewhere is still as telling as it is without Earls and Fitz.

Anybody have any word on Payne actually?

Buer

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

He doesn't offer significantly more versatility than Keatley is the thing.

He does. It's not even open for argument. Keatley has played other positions in years gone by but hasn't had any regular appearances in any other position aside from outhalf in a long time.

I'll take Keatley over Madigan any day as an outhalf but the versatility argument isn't even debatable.

aimee1

Buer wrote: »

Madigan didn't have a great game when he came on but didn't lack for effort. He tackled well and, when he took contact, fought for a couple of yards he shouldn't have made. But his general play just isn't up to scratch. The kick on the full missed by a good bit and his line kicking was very conservative. You got the impression that he was very nervous about missing touch again.

His line kicks were good, not greedy, look at the scotland game, last few minutes.

Baggy Trousers

aimee1 wrote: »

Jump.jpg

Wow, great picture!

awec

aimee1 wrote: »

His line kicks were good, not greedy, look at the scotland game, last few minutes.

He could have got quite a few more metres comfortably. They were a bit too conservative.

.ak

Yeah he defo didn't want to over cook another kick so was consverative.

awec

There was one in the second half where we only made about 10 metres off a penalty. Could easily have gone double that!