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Defence forces : A wider ceremonial role ?

  • 20-02-2015 11:38pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭


    If you go to any European capital you see the militaries of the said countries performing a full time ceremonial role at places/buildings of significance.

    Except in Ireland.

    It would be nice to see the army and air corps having this role in a few designated places, good for tourists too. Also raise the profile.

    Heres the aer corps performing a ceremonial. And blatantly ripping off the RAF regiment, lol. But thats a compliment.

    Firstly officer has a poor command voice... DLIPS: Distinctness, Loudness, Inflection, Projection, and Snap.....Is how drill commands should be given.


    A fairly decent job, the drill could be sharper, I think raising the knee higher would look better, the arm raised higher when marching looks crisper, defence forces drill looks a bit too relaxed, the hand on the hips when aligning/dressing looks like mincing (1 min), the hand lower down, not on the hip, looks better, the belts on some look sloppy, and get rid of the sling, it serves no purpose. The defence forces needs a few drill Sgts if such a role happened . Such duties would be good all round.

    and at 5 mins 55secs, court mounting the medals with buckram would prevent them jingling. and blackey segs on soles of shoes create a much better sound effect.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t2kEaIY6wA


    And civvys should nor be allowed to walk through the ceremony when its taking place.


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    3o secs, a great method of getting civilians out of the way.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpieDsRJAts


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Given that there aren't that many troops to begin with, they probably have better things to be doing.

    That said, I've seen them do a ceremonial guard mount on Merrion Square, they could do with a little more polish when they try it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    It's basically down to the fact that Oglaigh na hEireann had a different genesis from most other militaries. It grew out of a revolutionary movement and a guerilla force and as a consequence it's heritage and traditions differ from militaries who have been involved in more 'traditional' pitched battles.

    Second, 'ceremonial' is strongly associated with the British so in the early days of its existence the National Army was not keen on emulating the British (even though lots of other militaries do ceremonial) and even if they wanted to the politicians and senior civil servants wouldn't have stood for it.

    The history of the Blue Hussars illustrates the point - they were formed as a mounted escort for the President before being disbanded because......

    ......motorbikes, the civil servants decided, would look more impressive

    and, this always makes me laugh......

    .....no horses of suitable quality could be sourced...........in Ireland!!! - at any given time over 90% of the horses in the Household Cavalry are Irish or bred from Irish draught stock.

    Personally, I'd like to see a cavalry guard mounted at the Gardens of Remembrance - the daily sight of a 'short guard' of 12 Irish 'blacks' starting out from Stephen's Green, down Kildare Street, around by Trinity and clippity clopping down O'Connell Street, saluting the GPO before proceeding to Parnell Square would, in my opinion, rival anything that takes place in any other capital.

    Also during State Visits etc a cavalry escort would surely look more impressive?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Its odd that a country so connected to the horse does not use them in ceremonial.

    A ceremonial role would cost nothing to implement, so its a win, win situation.

    Now that the CIT protection role has finished, the manpower is there.

    Yes, the household cavalry's horses are sourced in the republic, my uncle used to be a buyer, cant go into detail for security reasons.

    And lets not forget it was an Irishman from Waterford Garrison Sgt Maj George Stone who wrote the British armies modern drill manual and the modern day troop in the colour ceremony etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Its odd that a country so connected to the horse does not use them in ceremonial.

    A ceremonial role would cost nothing to implement, so its a win, win situation.

    Now that the CIT protection role has finished, the manpower is there.

    Yes, the household cavalry's horses are sourced in the republic, my uncle used to be a buyer, cant go into detail for security reasons.

    And lets not forget it was an Irishman from Waterford Garrison Sgt Maj George Stone who wrote the British armies modern drill manual and the modern day troop in the colour ceremony etc.

    Your uncle was in the RAVC?

    The process of how they acquired their remounts here is pretty well known - so I'm not sure what security reasons you're referring to!


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Your uncle was in the RAVC?

    The process of how they acquired their remounts here is pretty well known - so I'm not sure what security reasons you're referring to!

    Queens Royal Irish Hussars then head of Royal mews, who use the same horses and go over with representatives of the household cavalry. Obviously I can go into detail about breeders, where they are sourced etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Queens Royal Irish Hussars then head of Royal mews, who use the same horses and go over with representatives of the household cavalry. Obviously I can go into detail about breeders, where they are sourced etc.

    Actually it's the RAVC's 'Buying Commission' who sourced the remounts.

    And the full details of what they bought and from whom (and how much they paid) can be seen in the records of the Household Cavalry held at Combermere Barracks (Windsor).


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Actually it's the RAVC's 'Buying Commission' who sourced the remounts.

    And the full details of what they bought and from whom (and how much they paid) can be seen in the records of the Household Cavalry held at Combermere Barracks (Windsor).


    Obviously the horses are checked over by RAVC vets and I dont know whos account payment goes through. But the sales and breeders are dealt with by household cavalry and Royal mews representatives. I know this for a fact, not because I read something in a museum :rolleyes:



    ....And to prove my point....
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0kt-AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=household+cavalry+buying+remounts+ireland&source=bl&ots=z7YdwOyJcA&sig=EwKkGm9Z1kNSwF-TEScWHuZlZs8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m2DoVIPrE4bm7gbYvIHgCA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=household%20cavalry%20buying%20remounts%20ireland&f=false


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Obviously the horses are checked over by RAVC vets and I dont know whos account payment goes through. But the sales and breeders are dealt with by household cavalry and Royal mews representatives. I know this for a fact, not because I read something in a museum :rolleyes:



    ....And to prove my point....
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0kt-AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=household+cavalry+buying+remounts+ireland&source=bl&ots=z7YdwOyJcA&sig=EwKkGm9Z1kNSwF-TEScWHuZlZs8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m2DoVIPrE4bm7gbYvIHgCA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=household%20cavalry%20buying%20remounts%20ireland&f=false

    Well the 'something' I read in a museum was the records and correspondence between various Riding Masters, Squadron Leaders and the RAVC Buying Commission, the records of shipment and movement, regimental order and day books, statistical returns as well as the usual ledgers etc - this was done in the context of researching 'livestock' movements in Ireland which led into some work I did on the Remount Service which was merged into the RAVC .

    In fact, if memory serves, the idea of regiments buying or procuring their own mounts directly went out with either the Cardwell reforms or the Childers reforms.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    What really rustles my jimmies, is how the Irish Army does marches. They don't really march in step, they just try to swagger around. I can understand that it seems a superfluous request, but I would quite like to see the Army actually marching in tandem like every other First World country does.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Well the 'something' I read in a museum was the records and correspondence between various Riding Masters, Squadron Leaders and the RAVC Buying Commission, the records of shipment and movement, regimental order and day books, statistical returns as well as the usual ledgers etc - this was done in the context of researching 'livestock' movements in Ireland which led into some work I did on the Remount Service which was merged into the RAVC .

    In fact, if memory serves, the idea of regiments buying or procuring their own mounts directly went out with either the Cardwell reforms or the Childers reforms.



    You seriously think army vets go over to Ireland to buy horses with no representative from the household cavalry, who will be using the horses with them ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    You seriously think army vets go over to Ireland to buy horses with nobody from the household cavalry, who will be using the horses with them ?

    No, there is a rep from the Household Cavalry, but you said "my uncle used to be a buyer" - not "my uncle was in XXXX Regt and travelled as part of the buying commission" - now you seem to be backtracking.......

    Also when you say your uncle was "head of Royal mews" - do you mean he was the Sovereign's Master of the Horse the person - according to the British Monarchy's website - who "is the senior officer responsible for the Royal Mews, and the carriages and horses of the Sovereign."

    Or to put it another way - do you seriously expect me to believe that you are the nephew of a Duke, and Earl or a Lord......
    List of Masters of the Horse

    20th century


    .......and I thought my granduncle who was kicked out of the Irish Guards for impersonating an RSM was biggest spoofer I'd ever met :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 257 ✭✭dandyelevan


    My comments are NOT aimed at any previous posters on this subject.

    It's always the same old story when it comes to our military when the subject comes up, whether it's in the pub, on forums, or anywhere else.
    (I know what I'm talking about, having served in the PDF for more than thirty years)
    Irish people have zero pride in, or respect for our tiny Army.
    Zero, and they never had.
    Some people go out of their way to find fault with them to back up their own private prejudices.

    In their little world; having never donned a uniform or put themselves at risk of course, our Defence Forces are 'a joke.'
    They are a 'badly trained waste of space' and use up 'valuable resources which would be better used to' ..... in...etc, etc.

    I could go on and on.
    God help our troops if Ireland is ever invaded (which I admit is most unlikely) because (imo) they'd have to fight on two fronts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,027 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    My comments are NOT aimed at any previous posters on this subject.

    It's always the same old story when it comes to our military when the subject comes up, whether it's in the pub, on forums, or anywhere else.
    (I know what I'm talking about, having served in the PDF for more than thirty years)
    Irish people have zero pride in, or respect for our tiny Army.
    Zero, and they never had.
    Some people go out of their way to find fault with them to back up their own private prejudices.

    In their little world; having never donned a uniform or put themselves at risk of course, our Defence Forces are 'a joke.'
    They are a 'badly trained waste of space' and use up 'valuable resources which would be better used to' ..... in...etc, etc.

    I could go on and on.
    God help our troops if Ireland is ever invaded (which I admit is most unlikely) because (imo) they'd have to fight on two fronts.

    just on your last point... if it ever comes to the point where someone actually invades us... i think its safe to assume the entire world is ****ed thus their ability to fight isnt going to matter


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Jawgap wrote: »
    No, there is a rep from the Household Cavalry, but you said "my uncle used to be a buyer" - not "my uncle was in XXXX Regt and travelled as part of the buying commission" - now you seem to be backtracking.......

    Also when you say your uncle was "head of Royal mews" - do you mean he was the Sovereign's Master of the Horse the person - according to the British Monarchy's website - who "is the senior officer responsible for the Royal Mews, and the carriages and horses of the Sovereign."

    Or to put it another way - do you seriously expect me to believe that you are the nephew of a Duke, and Earl or a Lord......



    ....I never said my uncle was in charge of the Royal mews, I stated he went over with reps of the Household cavalry to access and purchase horses for the Royal Mews.

    The role you quote administrative, the Royal Mews employees alot of people.

    Please stop posting bs.

    Head of the Royal Mews horse/carriage stuff on a practical level, yes, not in charge of the Royal Mews, big difference.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    My comments are NOT aimed at any previous posters on this subject.

    It's always the same old story when it comes to our military when the subject comes up, whether it's in the pub, on forums, or anywhere else.
    (I know what I'm talking about, having served in the PDF for more than thirty years)
    Irish people have zero pride in, or respect for our tiny Army.
    Zero, and they never had.
    Some people go out of their way to find fault with them to back up their own private prejudices.

    In their little world; having never donned a uniform or put themselves at risk of course, our Defence Forces are 'a joke.'
    They are a 'badly trained waste of space' and use up 'valuable resources which would be better used to' ..... in...etc, etc.

    I could go on and on.
    God help our troops if Ireland is ever invaded (which I admit is most unlikely) because (imo) they'd have to fight on two fronts.


    No point in even fighting an invasion, really... You'll just have people complain about the lack of hospital beds again.

    I would disagree with you, I know a lot of people who just simply don't know enough about the Defence Forces. They're hesitant at spending more money (because lol taxes) but most of them are rather cordial.

    I have met a couple people who simply say "nope" to everything you say, but those people I don't direct my argument at, I direct it to the people listening on the sidelines. So long as you're calm, cordial and well-spoken, they're the ones who matter, not the moron screaming about "muh chillerns iraq war 5.0".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap



    ....I never said my uncle was in charge of the Royal mews, I stated he went over with reps of the Household cavalry to access and purchase horses for the Royal Mews.

    The role you quote administrative, the Royal Mews employees alot of people.

    Please stop posting bs.

    What?

    You posted
    Queens Royal Irish Hussars then head of Royal mews, who use the same horses and go over with representatives of the household cavalry. Obviously I can go into detail about breeders, where they are sourced etc.

    My apologies if I have offended your grace......or is it your lordship.......:D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Jawgap wrote: »
    What?

    You posted



    My apologies if I have offended your grace......or is it your lordship.......:D


    I suggest you read my previous post and stop clutching a straws.

    Is it a full moon tonight :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    I suggest you read my previous post and stop clutching a straws.

    Is it a full moon tonight :rolleyes:

    Well if he's not Master of the Horse - was uncle a Gentleman of the Horse/Crown Equerry? or perhaps Superintendent of the Royal Mews? or a Stud Groom? or Comptroller of Stores? or Chief Clerk?

    I think if you are going to peddle this kind of rubbish you could at least do some research - maybe pick someone from the Establishment Lists of the Royal Mews and use them as your uncle........


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Well if he's not Master of the Horse - was uncle a Gentleman of the Horse/Crown Equerry? or perhaps Superintendent of the Royal Mews? or a Stud Groom? or Comptroller of Stores? or Chief Clerk?

    I think if you are going to peddle this kind of rubbish you could at least do some research - maybe pick someone from the Establishment Lists of the Royal Mews and use them as your uncle........



    Keep goggling and guessing.

    As I stated head of the Royal Mews horses and carriages on a practical level with 30 years service, youre half bright, you should be able to work it out without my help.

    Why would I have listed an exact position on a thread that would have been meaningless to 99% of posters on here, except trainspotters like yourself ?


    I will leave that to you.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Keep googling and guessing :D

    As I stated head of horses and carriages on a practical level, youre half bright, you should be able to work it out without my help.

    Well to be honest, the organisational chart and Establishment Lists I have in front of me show the Master of the Horse to be head of the Royal Mews (the role you claimed your uncle fulfilled).

    Below the Master is the Crown Equerry (described as the operational manager) for the Mews - and below him is the Superintendent.

    Reporting to the Super are the Vet (I assume you're uncle is not a vet or maybe he was when he was in the Hussars); the Horsebox Driver (Windsor); the 2 Stud Grooms; the Comptroller of Stores; and the Chief Clerk.

    Are you saying your uncle was the Crown Equerry, who organises and manages the Mews on day-to-day basis?

    Oh dear, caught out again! Any sign of those P-Company photos? Maybe your uncle ha them!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,628 ✭✭✭Señor Fancy Pants


    Keep goggling and guessing.

    As I stated head of horses and carriages on a practical level, youre half bright, you should be able to work it out without my help.

    Why would I list an exact position on a thread that would be meaningless to 99% of posters on here, except trainspotters like yourself ?


    I will leave that to you.

    If you bring it up, you back it up. Seems to be a trend with you.

    Now hush, how's about you sit back, relax and think of some new things that the MOD should introduce.

    *quick steps out of thread, thumbs pointed down, elbows locked out, shoulders rolled back, chest out, head and chin up, eyes front, toes pointed forward, knees up with thighs parallel to the ground*


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    If you bring it up, you back it up. Seems to be a trend with you.

    Now hush, how's about you sit back, relax and think of some new things that the MOD should introduce.

    *quick steps out of thread, thumbs pointed down, elbows locked out, shoulders rolled back, chest out, head and chin up, eyes front, toes pointed forward, knees up with thighs parallel to the ground*



    Obviously such things are impossible to prove on the net, I have never regarded it as a big deal.

    Further I have given my uncles military background, if I give his exact role, it will ID him, if goggled with a picture. Which is not wise with ongoing connections to the republic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,628 ✭✭✭Señor Fancy Pants


    Obviously such things are impossible to prove on the net, I have never regarded it as a big deal.

    I am referring to all your *claims*, not just your current one.

    Ta ra pet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Obviously such things are impossible to prove on the net, I have never regarded it as a big deal.

    Further I have given my uncles military background, if I give his exact role, it will ID him.

    It's quite easy actually.

    The lists are in the London Gazette and the Court Circulars are available online.

    So far I've looked at all the Crown Equerries - only one had any connection with any regiment of Hussars - and that was Sir Dermot McMurrough Kavanagh - a descendant of the Leinster King - are you claiming to be part of that family?

    When I get a chance I'll go through the superintendents.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    I am referring to all your *claims*, not just your current one.

    Ta ra pet.


    All true, I do drink occasionally in the SFC, just around the corner from Harrods and did do p coy at 17 and passed, but was never a member of the Parachute regiment.

    Keep guessing :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    All true, I do drink occasionally in the SFC, just around the corner from Harrods and did do p coy at 17 and passed, but was never a member of the Parachute regiment.

    Keep guessing :)


    ......and to that list we can now add the 'fact' that you are - by your own suggestion - a member of an aristocratic family that may or may not be able to trace it's lineage back to pre-Norman Ireland.......

    .......did you adopt the moniker "crusader" to honour your noble ancestors :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,628 ✭✭✭Señor Fancy Pants


    All true, I do drink occasionally in the SFC, just around the corner from Harrods and did do p coy at 17 and passed, but was never a member of the Parachute regiment.

    Keep guessing :)

    Keep guessing? Guessing what?

    Oh fcuk, you actually think I give a fiddlers about you, your claims and your life? Ha deadly.

    Right, I'm really gone this time. Toodle pip.

    Oh on topic. I do agree that a greater ceremonial presence should be adopted here. Not in the gaudy sense you see by the redcoats and thier big fluffy hats (not a dig and not meant to cause offence to anyone, just don't know the unit title or name of the hat....no interest in knowing either so don't bother educating me)

    I have to say, I'm loving the fact that Jawgap is familiar enough with a niche area to counter act someone's claims. Sometimes I do enjoy popping in here :)

    Now, it's time for me to do 8 billion press ups.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Keep guessing? Guessing what?

    Oh fcuk, you actually think I give a fiddlers about you, your claims and your life? Ha deadly.

    Right, I'm really gone this time. Toodle pip.

    Oh on topic. I do agree that a greater ceremonial presence should be adopted here. Not in the gaudy sense you see by the redcoats and thier big fluffy hats (not a dig and not meant to cause offence to anyone, just don't know the unit title or name of the hat....no interest in knowing either so don't bother educating me)

    I have to say, I'm loving the fact that Jawgap is familiar enough with a niche area to counter act someone's claims. Sometimes I do enjoy popping in here :)

    Now, it's time for me to do 8 billion press ups.



    The Guards regiments are hardly gaudy :rolleyes:

    Such ignorance.

    lol you claim to be a soldier. obviously this thread has got your back up.


    Go and learn some drill and basic fitness.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Something similar to what they have at Prague Castle would be a good idea I think, not too flashy but popular with the tourists


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