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Defence forces : A wider ceremonial role ?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Yes and the Irish Wolfhound predates the British army by at least a 1,000 years as it, like other breed of dog, was used as a guard dog, attack dog, carrying dispatches and a mascot in ancient Ireland.

    ......

    I think you'll find the 'Wolfhound' from the medieval period and before was a noticeably smaller creature and not distinctly Irish. Wolfhounds were often given as gifts between sovereigns because they were prized for hunting - people were also not so precious about breeding them so breeds were often mixed - wolfhounds, deerhounds, greyhounds even elkhounds were bred, cross-bred and re-bred, at whim of the owner.

    The idea of dogs as more identifiable, standard 'breeds' is a Victorian invention. Up until then lords, farmers etc just tried to breed animals to suit their local circumstances.

    ....and the Hound of Culann that Setanta knocked on the head was most likely a Scottish rough hound.

    Yours etc

    Jawgap
    (happy owner of two fine Newfs ;))


  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I think you'll find the 'Wolfhound' from the medieval period and before was a noticeably smaller creature and not distinctly Irish. Wolfhounds were often given as gifts between sovereigns because they were prized for hunting - people were also not so precious about breeding them so breeds were often mixed - wolfhounds, deerhounds, greyhounds even elkhounds were bred, cross-bred and re-bred, at whim of the owner.

    The idea of dogs as more identifiable, standard 'breeds' is a Victorian invention. Up until then lords, farmers etc just tried to breed animals to suit their local circumstances.

    ....and the Hound of Culann that Setanta knocked on the head was most likely a Scottish rough hound.

    Yours etc

    Jawgap
    (happy owner of two fine Newfs ;))
    I suppose you were there when it happened in the SAS's secret time travelling machine eh Walt ? :rolleyes: :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    I suppose you were there when it happened in the SAS's secret time travelling machine eh Walt ? :rolleyes: :)

    No, I just like to read and among my diverse interests are large dog breeds. I looked at getting a couple of Wolfhounds, but in the end went with a pair of Newfies - Sulla and Lir - because they're less of land dog than the Wolfhounds.

    You can find plenty if articles on line discussing the origin of various breeds along with stories / accounts of notable members of those breeds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭Boreas


    Going back to the original post. If the DF did more ceremonial/changing of the guard type things do you think it would look better if they used Lee Enfields? Not disparaging bullpups but there is something about the look of more traditional rifles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Savage93


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Yes and the Irish Wolfhound predates the British army by at least a 1,000 years as it, like other breed of dog, was used as a guard dog, attack dog, carrying dispatches and a mascot in ancient Ireland.




    " wearing a 'coat' go" :rolleyes: Proof of the silly, pompous, pedantic d!cks the Brits are :rolleyes:

    I'll take a ban , F**k off to whatever cave you shinnerbots lurk in these days.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭neilled


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Yes and the Irish Wolfhound predates the British army by at least a 1,000 years as it, like other breed of dog, was used as a guard dog, attack dog, carrying dispatches and a mascot in ancient Ireland.




    " wearing a 'coat' go" :rolleyes: Proof of the silly, pompous, pedantic d!cks the Brits are :rolleyes:

    Hmmmmmm

    1394438_688926364458764_565553742_n.jpg?w=875&h=&crop=1


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Well, well, who'd-a-thought it, eh? A fine-looking group of Irishmen and a lady with a very impressive Irish Wolfhound in 'coat' uniform. What a great photograph that is, to be sure.

    Thanks for posting a timely reminder of Irish military history and tradition.

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Mr Joe seems to gone all kinda quiet, doncha think?

    First he called me a Walt, and then Mr Jawgap posted a photo of me surrounded by Soviet troops in a British Military Mission tour car in East Germany. That got no response from Mr Joe.

    Then he called people who had military animal mascots a bunch of 'silly, pompous pedantic dicks', only to have that great photograph above of the President of the Republic, two OR handlers and a senior officer of the Irish Permanent Defence Forces, and a fine-looking lady [Mrs President, perhaps?], making a fuss of THEIR Irish Wolfhound, wearing the coat he so derided.

    Still no response from Mr Joe.

    Me, I'm not counting points, but I think we've won THESE two games quite comprehensively.

    I much prefer his lack of posts to his otherwise frequent ones, very few of which seem to have anything positive to say about anybody or anything.

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Savage93


    Savage93 wrote: »
    I'll take a ban , F**k off to whatever cave you shinnerbots lurk in these days.

    I hate to speak too soon but I should have said it a long time ago:D:D:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Savage93 wrote: »
    I hate to speak too soon but I should have said it a long time ago:D:D:D

    He obviously heeded your request :D

    Tac, I think the officer with the brolly is the President's ADC, rather than a general. The rank insignia for an Irish commandant is not dissimilar to that of a British brigadier. Apparently it's been known to cause all kinds of 'trouble' on NATO missions on dark evenings when an Irish commandant with his crossed swords goes for a stroll!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,131 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Jawgap wrote: »
    He obviously heeded your request :D

    Tac, I think the officer with the brolly is the President's ADC, rather than a general. The rank insignia for an Irish commandant is not dissimilar to that of a British brigadier. Apparently it's been known to cause all kinds of 'trouble' on NATO missions on dark evenings when an Irish commandant with his crossed swords goes for a stroll!

    god bless your eyesight if you can see crossed swords on his epaulettes. But apparently he does have them but he is a colonel not a commandant. better pic of him here where you can see the crossed swords and 2 pips. img.rasset.ie/0007af6c-642.jpg (i cant post links yet so you will have to copy and paste the link)


  • Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Pronto63


    Boreas wrote: »
    Going back to the original post. If the DF did more ceremonial/changing of the guard type things do you think it would look better if they used Lee Enfields? Not disparaging bullpups but there is something about the look of more traditional rifles.

    Having spent many of my formative years doing arms drill with the Lee Enfield I would say yes it is a fine weapon but does tend to damage the uniform especially collar badges etc. Not sure if the DF have found this with the Styer.
    The FN would look super for ceremonial but the problem would be having to learn a different arms drill.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    If you look at the Youtube movie of the Royal 22nd Regiment of Canada on ceremonial duties at Buckingham Palace, you'll notice that they are using the C1, the Canadian-built version of the SLR/FAL. Not only does it look a whole lot better than ANY bull-pup design, you can put pennies in the magazine so that it makes a fine-sounding clank on drill movements. :)

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    Savage93 wrote: »
    I'll take a ban , F**k off to whatever cave you shinnerbots lurk in these days.
    Thanks for the encouragement buddy, when I get a reaction like that I know I’m on the right track !!!!



    (Besides Sinn Fein topping the poll on an all Ireland basis in the Euros got 1110,000 more votes than FF in 2nd place – so I’m in plenty of good company bitch !!!!)

    neilled wrote: »
    Hmmmmmm

    1394438_688926364458764_565553742_n.jpg?w=875&h=&crop=1
    And Fido is a corporal too, Jayus they'll let anyone become an NCO these days wouldn't they :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Savage93


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    Thanks for the encouragement buddy, when I get a reaction like that I know I’m on the right track !!!!



    (Besides Sinn Fein topping the poll on an all Ireland basis in the Euros got 1110,000 more votes than FF in 2nd place – so I’m in plenty of good company bitch !!!!)



    And Fido is a corporal too, Jayus they'll let anyone become an NCO these days wouldn't they :D

    Welcome back Joe, we missed you, you were probably busy for the past while what with the new paedo provo stories and how to put spin and lies on them, is that how your lads did their fighting for Ireland??

    Keep taking the drugs your crowd deal in, reality will reveal itself eventually , don't worry.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Dear Mr Joe - not content with insulting by inference the President of the Republic, his lady, a senior Army officer, two NCOs and the mascot of their regiment, you add 'bitch' - insulting the person to whom you are addressing your ranting tripe.

    Good going for just one post, eh?

    No wonder your 'words of wisdom' are as popular as farts in a lift.

    tac


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    [mod]i'm really not in the mood for this, and can see no benefit to ChicagoJoes's further participation on this forum. Permanently banned. I am willing to take submissions for a reversal from those who believe this to be unwarranted and advocate that he can provide a thought-provoking counter view to things.[/mod]


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,796 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Whatever about the defence forces having a wider ceremonial role, some of them would want to brush up on the basics first.

    Their drill on parade at the GPO this lunchtime was shocking. On commands to present arms and shoulder arms etc, there were about 20 different finishes within the ranks, it was almost like they had never done it before.

    Just not acceptable for a national solemn televised occasion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    This is AWFUL. In fact it's so bad I think there should be disciplinary proceedings of some sort.

    If you can't do it right then don't do it at all.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭GoodisonPark


    This is AWFUL. In fact it's so bad I think there should be disciplinary proceedings of some sort.

    If you can't do it right then don't do it at all.


    That is embarrassing.
    Really really bad.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    That is fairly bad now alright, you would think that with any level of practice you would expect a better result than that.


    Just to chirp in on the ceremonial role.......... In places such as Paris, you have an army presence at all major public venues, and they are fully armed. Now whilst i understand that the security level in Ireland would not need to match that of Paris, is there something to be said for having an armed army presence at key locations than can provide a fast action response to any attack.

    I dont think the army is capable of this with the current level of funding, but if funds were forthcoming is this something people would like to see ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,628 ✭✭✭Señor Fancy Pants


    Holy fcuking ****. That is absolutely disgraceful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,363 ✭✭✭✭Reggie.


    That is embarrassing.
    Really really bad.

    The wrong order was given at that time that's why the troops were hesitant.

    The drill movements were perfect upto and after that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,363 ✭✭✭✭Reggie.


    That is fairly bad now alright, you would think that with any level of practice you would expect a better result than that.


    Just to chirp in on the ceremonial role.......... In places such as Paris, you have an army presence at all major public venues, and they are fully armed. Now whilst i understand that the security level in Ireland would not need to match that of Paris, is there something to be said for having an armed army presence at key locations than can provide a fast action response to any attack.

    I dont think the army is capable of this with the current level of funding, but if funds were forthcoming is this something people would like to see ?
    We have the same in dublin in key areas


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    Reggie. wrote: »
    We have the same in dublin in key areas
    Can i ask where ?

    I am from down south and have never seen a military presence on the streets when visiting Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,363 ✭✭✭✭Reggie.


    I won't say them all but one is government buildings but there are about 4 key locations where there are armed troops at all times. We are hidden as the civilian powers don't like us to be seen


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Reggie. wrote: »
    The wrong order was given at that time that's why the troops were hesitant.

    The drill movements were perfect upto and after that.

    If that happened on the 100th anniversary they would be a laughing stock. I know it's a mistake but at the same time you expect these things to pass off correctly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,363 ✭✭✭✭Reggie.


    If that happened on the 100th anniversary they would be a laughing stock. I know it's a mistake but at the same time you expect these things to pass off correctly.

    This is true.

    The thing is plenty of rehearsals were done. To an extent that everyone knew what was coming next if they heard the order or not. So that's why the mistake was made there.

    You have to realise also that other militaries have dedicated units to ceremonies where in the Def forces normal soldiers are brought together a few days ahead of the ceremony itself.

    might not be a good enough excuse but it's something to think about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,796 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Reggie. wrote: »
    The wrong order was given at that time that's why the troops were hesitant.

    The drill movements were perfect upto and after that.

    The wrong order? You listen to the call and you perform the move. Even if the CO gets it wrong you dont flippin well second guess them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,363 ✭✭✭✭Reggie.


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    The wrong order? You listen to the call and you perform the move. Even if the CO gets it wrong you dont flippin well second guess them.

    The move was carried out


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