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Defence forces : A wider ceremonial role ?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Oh on topic. I do agree that a greater ceremonial presence should be adopted here. Not in the gaudy sense you see by the redcoats and thier big fluffy hats (not a dig and not meant to cause offence to anyone, just don't know the unit title or name of the hat....no interest in knowing either so don't bother educating me)

    Coldstream, Grenadiers, Scots, Irish and Welsh Guard Regiments of Foot.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Big fluffy hats are worn by "ladies" at the races, bearskins are worn by Guardsman.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    If the defence forces developed a drill school, it could have a unit which could raise its profile around the world on a tiny budget.


    The best option is to copy the Queens colour Squadron RAF regiment, drill from the manual, no special maneuvers, done to perfection with perfect kit.


    I really dont like flash drill units twirling rifles like majorettes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    If you go to any European capital you see the militaries of the said countries performing a full time ceremonial role at places/buildings of significance.

    Except in Ireland.

    It would be nice to see the army and air corps having this role in a few designated places, good for tourists too. Also raise the profile.

    Heres the aer corps performing a ceremonial. And blatantly ripping off the RAF regiment, lol. But thats a compliment.

    And doing a fairly decent job, the drill could be sharper, I think raising the knee higher would look better, the arm raised higher when marching looks crisper, defence forces drill looks a bit too relaxed, the hand on the hips when aligning/dressing looks like mincing (1 min), the hand lower down, not on the hip, looks better, the belts on some look sloppy, and get rid of the sling, it serves no purpose. The defence forces needs a few drill Sgts if such a role happened . Such duties would be good all round.

    and at 5 mins 55secs, court mounting the medals with buckram would prevent them jingling. and blackey segs on soles of shoes create a much better sound effect.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t2kEaIY6wA


    And civvys should nor be allowed to walk through the ceremony when its taking place.
    Trojan horse thread :)

    Again the Brits biggest fan boy cruasder777 is up to his little agenda by starting a thread critical of the Irish DF’s and appearing to give an alternative which is always the super, duper Brits of course (RAF regiment in this case :)). Then of course goes on to laud the Brits posts 7, 9, 12, 16, 21, 24, 27 as wonderful in every aspect and the most professional military machine possible blah, blah. And of course joined in by more of our unionist friends and Walts such as Jawgap, pablomakaveli, tac foley etc :D

    I wouldn't claim to be an expert but the Aer Corps guys are doing fine, I can't see anything particularly different or poor about it from any other military ceremony you'd see on tv when Obama or Micheal D arrives in some country. As Manic Moran says they probably have better things to be doing. It's not everyone who wants to prance around Buckingham Palace dressed in a stupid over sized hat in an equally stupid bright red uniform looking like a pompous d!ck etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    3o secs, a great method of getting civilians out of the way.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpieDsRJAts
    Oh dear, that's the most interesting extraordinary Youtube military video anyone could ever have seen......... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

    Besides that bullsh!t, I always find the French Foreign Legion's marching and singing intriguing. Adds a sort of mystique and mystery to one of the world's best known regiments.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnDyJZ2ygw

    Not that I approve of their brutality but you have to hand it to the German Wehrmacht, the bast@rds were impressive

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsOdaGIXpBo


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    Trojan horse thread :)

    Again the Brits biggest fan boy cruasder777 is up to his little agenda by starting a thread critical of the Irish DF’s and appearing to give an alternative which is always the super, duper Brits of course (RAF regiment in this case :)). Then of course goes on to laud the Brits posts 7, 9, 12, 16, 21, 24, 27 as wonderful in every aspect and the most professional military machine possible blah, blah. And of course joined in by more of our unionist friends and Walts such as Jawgap, pablomakaveli, tac foley etc :D

    I wouldn't claim to be an expert but the Aer Corps guys are doing fine, I can't see anything particularly different or poor about it from any other military ceremony you'd see on tv when Obama or Micheal D arrives in some country. As Manic Moran says they probably have better things to be doing. It's not everyone who wants to prance around Buckingham Palace dressed in a stupid over sized hat in an equally stupid bright red uniform looking like a pompous d!ck etc

    I'm not sure how you get......

    (a) that I agree with the OP
    (b) I'm a unionist
    (c) I was unfavourably comparing the DF and the British Armed Services in how they fulfill their ceremonial roles

    :confused:

    I did suggest that we take something we're known the world over for - our fine horses - and combine them with something else the DF are known for - their consistently high standard of horsemanship - to mount a guard that would be meangingful at the Gardens of Remembrance while adding to the 'offering' of the city centre.

    Are you suggesting a dozen black chargers making their way down O'Connell Street wouldn't be a positive addition to the city and a great 'advertisement' for the DF.

    And there's no need to opt for the funny furry hats etc - the current uniform used for Escort of Honour duties could be used. Basically, the Cavalry Corps would trade their bikes for horses

    info_cere_escort_459.jpg

    Plus I think the Defence Forces showed they can do 'ceremonial' to an extremely high standard during the State Visit in 2011......



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    Trojan horse thread :)

    Again the Brits biggest fan boy cruasder777 is up to his little agenda by starting a thread critical of the Irish DF’s and appearing to give an alternative which is always the super, duper Brits of course (RAF regiment in this case :)). Then of course goes on to laud the Brits posts 7, 9, 12, 16, 21, 24, 27 as wonderful in every aspect and the most professional military machine possible blah, blah. And of course joined in by more of our unionist friends and Walts such as Jawgap, pablomakaveli, tac foley etc :D

    I wouldn't claim to be an expert but the Aer Corps guys are doing fine, I can't see anything particularly different or poor about it from any other military ceremony you'd see on tv when Obama or Micheal D arrives in some country. As Manic Moran says they probably have better things to be doing. It's not everyone who wants to prance around Buckingham Palace dressed in a stupid over sized hat in an equally stupid bright red uniform looking like a pompous d!ck etc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5sCaZZm340

    Heres the first 90 secs of ....."27 Infantry Battalion perform ceremonial drill at the National Memorial, Merrion Square "

    Firstly rope rail needed to separate public and give it a more official feel....

    1) 10 secs, Officers uniform obviously too tight ;) Jacket too short, trousers about to split, creased at back behind knees from sitting down :rolleyes:

    2) 12 secs,..Poor command voice... DLIPS: Distinctness, Loudness, Inflection, Projection, and Snap.....Is how drill commands should be given.

    3) 14 secs Soldier far right, trousers creased.

    4) 14 secs obese Soldier second left boots not bulled (they dont even look polished), trousers too short.

    5) 14 Secs Soldier second left Belt in wrong position.

    6) 1.10 secs Sgt, lanyard wrong position, worn incorrectly.

    7) 1.22 secs, Sgt, trousers incorrect length.

    8) 1.25 drill movement, present arms, out of synch.

    9) 1.29 soldier furthest from camera medals jingling/clinking, incorrectly mounted.

    .......Thats the first 90 secs watching a video.

    And this is a national commemoration :eek:


    .....No drill school or drill sergeants...thats the poor turn out and drill you can expect. There is no excuse for the simple drill done at national commemorations not being done to a decent standard. And turn out not being like below :

    Look at the boots


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUmTDMtRZQk


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    tac foley wrote: »

    339729.jpeg

    Was this a wrong turn? Or where you just unlucky to be spotted?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    We were driving past the column drawn up at the roadside, 'liaising' [wink-wink], with Benny driving like a madman, me calling kit into my recorder, and Major Chris in the back doing what anybody in the back would do, when the ****ers got the grade-crossing operator to close the gates in front of us, by which time the truck you can see, a GaZ-66 comms vehicle, and the BTR-60PA[CMD] - the eight-wheeled thing you can see top left with the HAND RAIL antenna, had joined it to force us off the highway and into the muddy field. Even though we had 4WD, it could not cope with two feet of gloop.

    We were there for almost eight hours, being as nonchalant as we could, given the circumstances. The local Kommandatura UaZ-452 arrived with 'Smiler' in it, and we were finally allowed to go after correctly refusing to sign the Akt - a document in which we would admit to spying. I'm looking p*ssed off because I just overheard the two guys to my front discussing using a crowbar on the trunk while our attention was on the release procedures. Only the tour officer - here the late and much-missed Chris hughes - was supposed to be a Russian speaker, but.........

    The result of the liaising was a few hundred coup shots of a brand new item of artillery-associated kit - the new BTR-60 Arty Assoc Cmd Vehicle, so like most everything we did, it was well-worth the effort and pain of having to piss in a plastic bag.

    The photo, taken by a Sov, appeared out of nowhere about three years ago. On the strength of this tour I got commissioned in August 1984. and retired in 2000.

    It was, without any doubt at all, the very best time I ever had in the Army.

    Anybody else - you might care to read about it - the unit was called BRIXMIS.

    tac


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    tac foley wrote: »
    ........
    Anybody else - you might care to read about it - the unit was called BRIXMIS.

    tac

    Just browsing Steve Gibson's book "Live and Let Spy" about BRIXMIS - interesting stuff!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Tony Geraghty's book 'Beyond the Front line' is also a good read, although opinions differ about some of the details in it.

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭John Mongo


    What really rustles my jimmies, is how the Irish Army does marches. They don't really march in step, they just try to swagger around. I can understand that it seems a superfluous request, but I would quite like to see the Army actually marching in tandem like every other First World country does.

    You've quite literally just made that up.

    That statement isn't even close to the truth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Ren2k7


    We don't need pomp and ceremony, we need a functional and equipped Irish Defence Force that can carry out its mission in the most efficient and effective manner possible. Soldiers in funny hats don't help them do that. Certainly for special occasions like a yearly 1916 remembrance ceremony but little else beyond that.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Ren2k7 wrote: »
    We don't need pomp and ceremony, we need a functional and equipped Irish Defence Force that can carry out its mission in the most efficient and effective manner possible. Soldiers in funny hats don't help them do that. Certainly for special occasions like a yearly 1916 remembrance ceremony but little else beyond that.


    Who mentioned pomp ? Your attitude is all wrong, its not about the most efficient/effective its about being able to do it as near perfection as possible, if that takes three months on the drill sq 8 hours a day and kit alterations being done by the battalion tailor(if there is one, the Guards and QCS have one, who alters kit to perfection),to get kit looking perfect so be it. You are representing your nation in front of the world.

    No pomp, just a unit of soldiers who can do drill to a decent standard, Officers and NCO's who can give drill commands and soldiers who can turn out to a decent standard. I'm not seeing that.

    Bearskins are not pomp, they are part of something called tradition. The honor to wear them was won in battle. Nobody has suggested the defense forces do ceremonial like the Guards or wear bearskins.


    Heres the video of the ceremonial for the Queens visit, its not HD, but even from afar I can see averagely turned out kit, even on officers and poor drill. I could rip it apart. But Im being nice :-)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFVNQa39S0


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Heres the video of the ceremonial for the Queens visit, its not HD, but even from afar I can see averagely turned out kit, even on officers and poor drill. I could rip it apart. But Im being nice :-)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFVNQa39S0

    You're also, frankly, being a tad annoying. If the British can afford to spend the time doing 8 hours a day doing drill, and have their own tailor, good for them. I'm sure the Old Guard have similar time and effort available to them before they go out on public display in Arlington every day. Then again, they do the minimum of field time.

    Remember the old adage: No battle-ready unit ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit ever passed combat. There is a little truth to that.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    You're also, frankly, being a tad annoying. If the British can afford to spend the time doing 8 hours a day doing drill, and have their own tailor, good for them. I'm sure the Old Guard have similar time and effort available to them before they go out on public display in Arlington every day. Then again, they do the minimum of field time.

    Remember the old adage: No battle-ready unit ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit ever passed combat. There is a little truth to that.


    Annoying because my point of view is different ? Disagree, the whole point of drill originally was to install an attention to detail that would be passed on in things like weapons training etc. The Guards and RAF Regiment have combat records second to none, ceremonial is just part of what they do and is rotated. Suggesting the defense forces have a unit capable of doing ceremonial to a high standard with the logistics to back that up is quite logical. The problem is they don't see a problem with their standard of ceremonial, drill and turnout, hence why I showed how it could look more professional. If they cant deal with constructive criticism so be it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    You're also, frankly, being a tad annoying. If the British can afford to spend the time doing 8 hours a day doing drill, and have their own tailor, good for them. I'm sure the Old Guard have similar time and effort available to them before they go out on public display in Arlington every day. Then again, they do the minimum of field time.

    Remember the old adage: No battle-ready unit ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit ever passed combat. There is a little truth to that.

    You all seem to be missing the point. In the British Army, the personnel that you see performing public duties are also full-time soldiers who spend 'some' of their time performing public duties. ALL the Household Division have spent time in Iraq and 'stan, and recently too. In 2009 the CO of the Welsh Guards was killed by an IED.

    In direct contrast to some nations, whose ceremonial guards do little or nothing else, ALL of the British Army's troops seen on ceremonial duties are also soldiers. Likewise, the occasional 'visiting' ceremonial military, like the Royale 22iéme Régiment du Canada, the Brigade of Gurkhas, or the Royal Air Force can be seen on duty at Buckingham Palace.

    tac

    PS - @ MM - ALL British military units, especially the infantry have a unit tailor, doncha know.

    PPS - just in case there is some confusion here about the difference between ceremonial duties and active service, I suggest that the battle honours of the Household Division are looked at.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Ren2k7


    Who mentioned pomp ? Your attitude is all wrong, its not about the most efficient/effective its about being able to do it as near perfection as possible, if that takes three months on the drill sq 8 hours a day and kit alterations being done by the battalion tailor(if there is one, the Guards and QCS have one, who alters kit to perfection),to get kit looking perfect so be it. You are representing your nation in front of the world.

    No pomp, just a unit of soldiers who can do drill to a decent standard, Officers and NCO's who can give drill commands and soldiers who can turn out to a decent standard. I'm not seeing that.

    Bearskins are not pomp, they are part of something called tradition. The honor to wear them was won in battle. Nobody has suggested the defense forces do ceremonial like the Guards or wear bearskins.


    Heres the video of the ceremonial for the Queens visit, its not HD, but even from afar I can see averagely turned out kit, even on officers and poor drill. I could rip it apart. But Im being nice :-)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFVNQa39S0

    No, that's precisely what pomp and ceremony is. The Brits can do what they like but quite frankly we have no need for such frivolities, especially at a time when out forces are so chronically underfunded. Perhaps when we have a DF that matches the requirements of the nation's defence and security needs we can come back to this. But right now we have more important things to deal with in our military.....like beefing up our air and naval assets. You know, actual military stuff.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Ren2k7 wrote: »
    No, that's precisely what pomp and ceremony is. The Brits can do what they like but quite frankly we have no need for such frivolities, especially at a time when out forces are so chronically underfunded. Perhaps when we have a DF that matches the requirements of the nation's defence and security needs we can come back to this. But right now we have more important things to deal with in our military.....like beefing up our air and naval assets. You know, actual military stuff.



    All armies do ceremonial, claiming you dont is not true as is claiming drill and ceremonial are not military activities.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Annoying because my point of view is different ?

    No, because you have this habit of knocking down non-British militaries, and upping the Brits in a constant trend which seems a little agenda-driven.
    You all seem to be missing the point. In the British Army, the personnel that you see performing public duties are also full-time soldiers who spend 'some' of their time performing public duties. ALL the Household Division have spent time in Iraq and 'stan, and recently too. In 2009 the CO of the Welsh Guards was killed by an IED.

    I think you missed mine, as well. I'm not saying that a troop does nothing but drill and ceremony for the duration of his career. A soldier assigned to The Old Guard will PCS to another unit just as often as any other US soldier will PCS to a new unit. Neither am I saying that a ceremonial unit doesn't have battle dress in the corner and isn't expected, if necessary, to be capable of going on operation. The Old Guard has fifty combat streamers, which isn't bad by US Army standards, and its combat record has resulted in its earning the right to be the only US Army unit to pass in review with bayonets fixed. But there is no getting around the fact that when you're assigned for X many months to a ceremonial duty, you are strongly emphasising ceremonial skills at the cost of combat skills which are perishable. You won't find the eight hours drill a day boasted by Crusader above on the training schedule of any field unit in any army excluding punishment, unexpected cancellations, or budget cuts, there are many more more useful things to be reviewed in that time.

    Now, I'm not denying Crusader's point that the Irish ceremonial events that I've seen up close seemed a little... well.. ragged, even by the standards of a non-dedicated unit and could be improved, but I really don't think the Irish military can afford to dedicate a portion of its small force to full-time ceremonial duties.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Ren2k7 wrote: »
    No, that's precisely what pomp and ceremony is. The Brits can do what they like but quite frankly we have no need for such frivolities, especially at a time when out forces are so chronically underfunded. Perhaps when we have a DF that matches the requirements of the nation's defence and security needs we can come back to this. But right now we have more important things to deal with in our military.....like beefing up our air and naval assets. You know, actual military stuff.

    The ceremonial side of things 'ties' the Defence Forces to civic society - it also increases their visibility - which it makes it easier (or at least not as hard) to get funding from the government.

    I'm sure someone knowledgeable in such matters could conceive something around the handing over of Dublin Castle in 1922 or Mulcahy raising the flag over the National Army's HQ.



    or, stick gates on the bridge at Lifford / Strabane and do a variation of Wagah :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    'Neither am I saying that a ceremonial unit doesn't have battle dress in the corner and isn't expected, if necessary, to be capable of going on operation.'

    The British Army does not have 'ceremonial units', as you so disparagingly note. Overall, a soldier in the Household Division can expect to spend about 25% of his career on ceremonial duties.

    The Household Division of the British Army is required to carry out duties in defence of the Sovereign, hence their title, as are other parts of the Armed Forces of The Commonwealth.

    You'll note that I have made no comment about the Irish Armed Forces and their drill - that is outside my remit to do so. These young men and women have volunteered to take up the profession of soldiering in the defence of their country, and that's good enough for me.

    tac


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Jawgap wrote: »
    The ceremonial side of things 'ties' the Defence Forces to civic society - it also increases their visibility - which it makes it easier (or at least not as hard) to get funding from the government.

    I'm sure someone knowledgeable in such matters could conceive something around the handing over of Dublin Castle in 1922 or Mulcahy raising the flag over the National Army's HQ.



    or, stick gates on the bridge at Lifford / Strabane and do a variation of Wagah :D
    It would have to be at the GPO imo, it's probably the most high profile spot in Dublin and it would really capture the imagination of local and tourist alike.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    It would have to be at the GPO imo, it's probably the most high profile spot in Dublin and it would really capture the imagination of local and tourist alike.

    There or Dublin Castle (or both!)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    No, because you have this habit of knocking down non-British militaries, and upping the Brits in a constant trend which seems a little agenda-driven.



    I think you missed mine, as well. I'm not saying that a troop does nothing but drill and ceremony for the duration of his career. A soldier assigned to The Old Guard will PCS to another unit just as often as any other US soldier will PCS to a new unit. Neither am I saying that a ceremonial unit doesn't have battle dress in the corner and isn't expected, if necessary, to be capable of going on operation. The Old Guard has fifty combat streamers, which isn't bad by US Army standards, and its combat record has resulted in its earning the right to be the only US Army unit to pass in review with bayonets fixed. But there is no getting around the fact that when you're assigned for X many months to a ceremonial duty, you are strongly emphasising ceremonial skills at the cost of combat skills which are perishable. You won't find the eight hours drill a day boasted by Crusader above on the training schedule of any field unit in any army excluding punishment, unexpected cancellations, or budget cuts, there are many more more useful things to be reviewed in that time.

    Now, I'm not denying Crusader's point that the Irish ceremonial events that I've seen up close seemed a little... well.. ragged, even by the standards of a non-dedicated unit and could be improved, but I really don't think the Irish military can afford to dedicate a portion of its small force to full-time ceremonial duties.



    Firstly I dont have any agenda, I have been critical of various BA infantry units on here. But being even constructively critical of the defence forces is another matter on here. I would say some posters on here are over sensitive.

    In regards to ceremonial duties taking from combat training, as Tac stated its rotated, infantiers are not always training for combat the are often wasting time on mundane duties. To prove the point of ceremonial not taking from combat abilities, the RAF regiment provide the premier drill unit in the British armed forces yet also provide the most members to successfully pass of UK special forces selection per head.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Jawgap wrote: »
    There or Dublin Castle (or both!)
    Why not, the more visibility the better. #for the GPO I think it would be a nice idea as part of the upcoming 1916 centenary and I would like to see something a bit more commemorative/appreciative at the GPO considering it's place in Irish history and psyche. I mentioned them before but I really think something similar to the Czech castle guard would be appropriate, no need for the pomp as Ireland (or perhaps more correctly the Defense Forces) don't really have a history of it

    Edit: maybe a uniform with a tastefully done gaelic twist :pac:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Why not, the more visibility the better. #for the GPO I think it would be a nice idea as part of the upcoming 1916 centenary and I would like to see something a bit more commemorative/appreciative at the GPO considering it's place in Irish history and psyche. I mentioned them before but I really think something similar to the Czech castle guard would be appropriate, no need for the pomp as Ireland (or perhaps more correctly the Defense Forces) don't really have a history of it

    Edit: maybe a uniform with a tastefully done gaelic twist :pac:


    Make more use of Ireland's heritage : pipers, Irish tartan etc, use it to create distinctive unit identity, I find military units simply referred to by numbers a bit dull.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Make more use of Ireland's heritage : pipers, Irish tartan etc, use it to create distinctive unit identity, I find military units simply referred to by numbers a bit dull.

    ...just like the British Army does with the Irish Guards, you mean? :)

    tac


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    tac foley wrote: »
    ...just like the British Army does with the Irish Guards, you mean? :)

    tac


    No reason both armies cant use Irish culture. Its actually a bit odd that its only the BA that uses such aspects of Irish culture.

    I remember as a kid I first heard of the Wolfhound because the Irish Guards were parading one on tv.


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