Is it time to retire the national anthem?

Kevhog1988

As someone who no longer lives in ireland i find great pride in the fact that any time it comes on in our local pub (Manchester) there will be a full crowd of fellow irish standing and singing the national anthem. It commemorates the people who gave there lives so that we could be free. I personally dont like irelands call but i do however like the fact of how inclusive it is for both unionists and nationalists to sing both.

pollyannawins

pollyannawins wrote: »

this country is good
this country is great
this country is home
ding a ling a ling

the new anthem should reflect the nations place in world affairs and what the state expects of its people at the centinery of the 1916 rising. none of the songs mentioned do anything of the sort. if a change is to be made a new anthem (probably in gaelic) is in my opinion the way to go.

Lollipops23

I had this (rather heated) discussion with two mates from the North recently. I actually prefer Ireland's Call; I find I get far more riled up singing it than Amhrán na bhFiann. One of said friends (very Republican) was NOT impressed.

Didn't stop us roaring Amhrán na bhFiann in a drunken stupor wending our way home through downtown Toronto later that night though....

Magico Gonzalez

Crooked Jack wrote: »

FYP must mean Fu(ked Your Post up or something because Amhrán na bhFiann was unofficially used as the national anthem across Ireland for years before its official adoption in 1926, before the so called Republic of Ireland even existed.
Also, the rugby team is Ireland, not the republic of Ireland.
So, like I said, nobody is making people who dont like the Irish national anthem play for Ireland, if you dont like it then dont play for them.

On a separate note, does anybody actually find Ireland's Call rousing?

They don't have a problem with the anthem being played.

Regardless of what happened in 1920 it doesn't now currently reflect the nationality of some of the Irish rugby team. Regardless of your position on nationality in the north people born there are free to chose whether they are british or irish. Regardless of that decision they are welcome and eligible to play for the Irish rugby team.

In respect of the fact that the team represents players and fans with British and Irish passports a small accomodation has been made to ensure that those players are represented and included.

Rugby and the national team are just fine thanks, without the need for excluding players and including the fudge of having a second anthem used at home. No, it's not the greatest song in the world but it's a small price to pay to have an all island sports team in which those who identify as British and Irish can feel proud to play for, with mutual respect. I dont speak a word of Irish, having never learnt or spoken it. I do enjoy hearing the anthem and then i enjoy hearing the somewhat drab Ireland's call. It is sang at the games, most people being of the opinion that whathever helps the team is positive and leaving political opinions at the door.

You won't hear either sang in the pubs around Dublin after the games., and that's fine. As it needs to be.

Hard luck if that sticks in your craw. The legally established reality is that there are British passport holders who play for the Irish rugby team, hopefully those who do play for Ireland opt to take an Irish passpor too, but it's not legally (in general or sporting terms) or morally an obligation.

I get you'd rather only Irish passport holders can play for Ireland happen but I suspect you are in a minority.

Magico Gonzalez

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I had this (rather heated) discussion with two mates from the North recently. I actually prefer Ireland's Call; I find I get far more riled up singing it than Amhrán na bhFiann. One of said friends (very Republican) was NOT impressed.

Didn't stop us roaring Amhrán na bhFiann in a drunken stupor wending our way home through downtown Toronto later that night though....

The real question is whether they believe northern protestants who don't hold an Irish passport should be allowed to play for Ireland or not?

I would hope they would be inclusive as per the current IRFU policy, but you can never be sure.

Lollipops23

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

The real question is whether they believe northern protestants who don't hold an Irish passport should be allowed to play for Ireland or not?

I would hope they would be inclusive as per the current IRFU policy, but you can never be sure.

They're not rugby fans, far more into their GAA

jjC123

As someone who did bother to learn the anthem, I still wouldn't be averse to a new one, either in English or in Irish.
I mean, say what you like about Irelands Call, it's very catchy and Amhran na bFhiann kinda ain't .

Surely, a new anthem, reflecting Irelands history and culture with contributions from across the country would be a welcome thing? Alternating English/Irish verses maybe? In some parts, people don't hold any attachment to the Irish language, I myself speak Irish pretty well but just because someone else isn't interested in one facet of Irish culture doesn't make them less Irish.

The biggest complaints about the current anthem is that a) it's not very rousing and b) many people don't really connect with it - even when they do understand what they're singing.
The anthem isn't the sole domain of Irish speakers and nationalists, it's for all Irish people and if a majority of Irish people are failing to be inspired by their own anthem them shouldn't we change it? Something with more meaning to everyone?

Lollipops23

Can I ask what the problem is with Ireland's Call? I do like that we play rugby as 32 counties, so understand why we have the 2 anthems played.

Nucular Arms

Personally I think national anthems in general should be retired.

Nationalism is an outmoded concept that doesn't make sense in a globalised world. As an ideology it offers nothing contsructive and only serves to maintain the illusion of separation between peoples, to the detriment of all.

It doesn't even make logical sense. I mean why should you hold some allegiance to one particular rock you were born on over any other? Especially considering that most of what separates most countries are imaginary lines drrawn on maps.

The sooner humanity can outgrow this primitive, tribal way of thinking and transcend these artificial boundaries the better.

mg1982

I think the problem with the national anthem is because so many people speak little or no irish and understand it even less you end up singing an anthem in a language whos words have no meaning to you mainly because you dont know what the words even mean. Its very hard to get inspired when you trying to belt out words you dont understand.

Míshásta

As there clearly is no consensus on this question I think the answer is for us to have a number of different anthems to cater for different groups and situations.

1.For the traditionalists: "Amhrán na bhFiann"

2. For the Unionist traditionalists: "God save Yer Wan"

3. For the traditionalists who don't like Irish: "The Soldiers' Song"

4. For the Rugger buggers: "Ireland's Call"

5. For the Gaeilgeoir Rugger buggers: "Glaoch na hÉireann"

6. For the Catlics: "Faith of our Fathers'"

7. For the pacifists: "Give Peace a Chance" (John Lennon had Irish roots back somewhere, so we can claim that)

8. For the Soccer Sorries: We need a national competition to come up with a suitable song, but it should be something with a simple melody, short words and just the chorus. In the meantime "The Bogs of Athenry" will do fine.

9. For the Ra heads: "Seán South"

10. For the C & W fans: "You picked a fine time to leave me Lucille" Yerrah I know, no connection with this country, but I'd love to hear it resounding around the stands of Croker or the Aviva.

11. For happy people: "When Oirish Eyes are Smiling"

The possibilities are endless.

jjC123

Míshásta wrote: »

As there clearly is no consensus on this question I think the answer is for us to have a number of different anthems to cater for different groups and situations.

1.For the traditionalists: "Amhrán na bhFiann"

2. For the Unionist traditionalists: "God save Yer Wan"

3. For the traditionalists who don't like Irish: "The Soldiers' Song"

4. For the Rugger buggers: "Ireland's Call"

5. For the Gaeilgeoir Rugger buggers: "Glaoch na hÉireann"

6. For the Catlics: "Faith of our Fathers'"

7. For the pacifists: "Give Peace a Chance" (John Lennon had Irish roots back somewhere, so we can claim that)

8. For the Soccer Sorries: We need a national competition to come up with a suitable song, but it should be something with a simple melody, short words and just the chorus. In the meantime "The Bogs of Athenry" will do fine.

9. For the Ra heads: "Seán South"

10. For the C & W fans: "You picked a fine time to leave me Lucille" Yerrah I know, no connection with this country, but I'd love to hear it resounding around the stands of Croker or the Aviva.

11. For happy people: "When Oirish Eyes are Smiling"

The possibilities are endless.

The president could pick one out of a hat before every international sporting event?

Crooked Jack

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

They don't have a problem with the anthem being played.

Regardless of what happened in 1920 it doesn't now currently reflect the nationality of some of the Irish rugby team. Regardless of your position on nationality in the north people born there are free to chose whether they are british or irish. Regardless of that decision they are welcome and eligible to play for the Irish rugby team.

In respect of the fact that the team represents players and fans with British and Irish passports a small accomodation has been made to ensure that those players are represented and included.

Rugby and the national team are just fine thanks, without the need for excluding players and including the fudge of having a second anthem used at home. No, it's not the greatest song in the world but it's a small price to pay to have an all island sports team in which those who identify as British and Irish can feel proud to play for, with mutual respect. I dont speak a word of Irish, having never learnt or spoken it. I do enjoy hearing the anthem and then i enjoy hearing the somewhat drab Ireland's call. It is sang at the games, most people being of the opinion that whathever helps the team is positive and leaving political opinions at the door.

You won't hear either sang in the pubs around Dublin after the games., and that's fine. As it needs to be.

Hard luck if that sticks in your craw. The legally established reality is that there are British passport holders who play for the Irish rugby team, hopefully those who do play for Ireland opt to take an Irish passpor too, but it's not legally (in general or sporting terms) or morally an obligation.

I get you'd rather only Irish passport holders can play for Ireland happen but I suspect you are in a minority.

I'll thank you not to go making assumptions about me or trying to put words in my mouth. I said no such thing and am a strong proponent of all-Ireland sports teams.
It's embarrassing that teams play abroad and cant play the national anthem. Worse that the song in place of it is so drearily awful.
If, for whatever reason, the anthem itself is changed to something else, fair enough, play that, but until then Ireland's Call is a poor, poor replacement for Amhrán na bhFiann. Like I said, if there is a rugby player out there so horrifically offended by the idea of the Irish national anthem then why play for Ireland.

Peregrine

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Like I said, if there is a rugby player out there so horrifically offended by the idea of the Irish national anthem then why play for Ireland.

The "Irish national anthem" in this instance is the national anthem of the 26 counties of the republic. "Ireland", the rugby team, represents the 32 counties.

This idea that it's a Republic of Ireland team where we let Northern Irish people play has to stop. Northern Ireland is as much part of the Irish rugby team as the Republic of Ireland.

Ideally, I'd like to see England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have their own distinct anthems. United Kingdom or not, they're still countries that are completely different to each other. As far as I know, Land of My Fathers (in Welsh) is the official national anthem of Wales. Flower of Scotland is used by both the football and rugby teams but Scotland has no official anthem. English teams and the NI football team uses GSTQ. It's just a mess.

If NI had their own anthem, the rugby team should just sing both anthems everywhere and get it over with. I don't see how anyone can complain. Personally, I like Ireland's Call but singing Amhrán na bhFiann and a NI national anthem would be favourable.

hardCopy

Nim wrote: »

The "Irish national anthem" in this instance is the national anthem of the 26 counties of the republic. "Ireland", the rugby team, represents the 32 counties.

This idea that it's a Republic of Ireland team where we let Northern Irish people play has to stop. Northern Ireland is as much part of the Irish rugby team as the Republic of Ireland.

Ideally, I'd like to see England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have their own distinct anthems. United Kingdom or not, they're still countries that are completely different to each other. As far as I know, Land of My Fathers (in Welsh) is the official national anthem of Wales. Flower of Scotland is used by both the football and rugby teams but Scotland has no official anthem. English teams and the NI football team uses GSTQ. It's just a mess.

If NI had their own anthem, the rugby team should just sing both anthems everywhere and get it over with. I don't see how anyone can complain. Personally, I like Ireland's Call but singing Amhrán na bhFiann and a NI national anthem would be favourable.

No matter how many times you repeat this some people will never get it.

The word "Ireland" has more than one meaning. In relation to rugby it does not mean the 26 county republic.

Iwasfrozen

hardCopy wrote: »

No matter how many times you repeat this some people will never get it.

The word "Ireland" has more than one meaning. In relation to rugby it does not mean the 26 county republic.

Agreed, but "amhran na bhfiann" is the anthem of the 26 county republic. So it's inappropriate to use for an all Ireland team, either sing the British national anthem in Belfast or adopt a new song entirely.

Crooked Jack

Nim wrote: »

The "Irish national anthem" in this instance is the national anthem of the 26 counties of the republic. "Ireland", the rugby team, represents the 32 counties.

Amhran na bhFiann is much more than just a free state anthem.

Nim wrote: »

This idea that it's a Republic of Ireland team where we let Northern Irish people play has to stop. Northern Ireland is as much part of the Irish rugby team as the Republic of Ireland.

I dont know why you're directing that at me, like I said, I'm a proponent of all our national teams being all-Ireland teams

66ad

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Agreed, but "amhran na bhfiann" is the anthem of the 26 county republic. So it's inappropriate to use for an all Ireland team, either sing the British national anthem in Belfast or adopt a new song entirely.

Every anthem can't be appropriate for every member off any team, let alone Ireland. Try working on that first, instead of your biased against the Irish language...

hardCopy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Agreed, but "amhran na bhfiann" is the anthem of the 26 county republic. So it's inappropriate to use for an all Ireland team, either sing the British national anthem in Belfast or adopt a new song entirely.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, that was basically my point.

Ireland's Call does the job better than anything else we've got. I wouldn't want to stand for GSTQ if we played in Belfast, I don't think we should ask a sizeable minority of our fans to stand for the anthem of the republic when they come down to Dublin.

Peregrine

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Amhran na bhFiann is much more than just a free state anthem.

It may or may not be more than that but the fact is that it is the Free State anthem and it is not the Northern Ireland anthem.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I dont know why you're directing that at me, like I said, I'm a proponent of all our national teams being all-Ireland teams

I'm aware that you support all-Ireland teams singing the anthem of the republic only.

Iwasfrozen

66ad wrote: »

Every anthem can't be appropriate for every member off any team, let alone Ireland. Try working on that first, instead of your biased against the Irish language...

Two strawmen in a two sentence post, that's almost impressive.

I agree every anthem can't be appropriate for every member of any team, but I didn't argue that it should be. I didn't mention the national or ethnic background of the members of the team as you are implying.

I did argue that when a team represents two or more countries that team should either be represented by all the anthems of the constitute nations or none of them. If you want to discuss this issue we can discuss it but I won't argue in favor of something I didn't say.

I won't address your claim about Irish because it's not worth responding to.

66ad

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Two strawmen in a two sentence post, that's almost impressive.

I agree every anthem can't be appropriate for every member of any team, but I didn't argue that it should be. But I didn't mention the national or ethnic background of the members of the team as you are implying.

I did argue that when a team represents two or more countries that team should either be represented by all the anthems of the constitute nations or none of them. If you want to discuss this issue we can discuss it but I won't argue in favor of something I didn't say.

I won't address your claim about Irish because it's not worth responding to.

Six I's in one post.

Iwasfrozen

66ad wrote: »

Six I's in one post.

Your favorite number, I would have thought?