Woman asked to move from pre-booked seat calls Gardai

ted1

malistheman wrote: »

Agreed about names not being up on the seats. It's extremely frustrating. Sometimes they'll put leaflets on booked seats but sometimes I think they just don't bother putting on the machine which puts on the names.

Names in seats? Does the data protection officer know this ?

Graham

foggy_lad wrote: »

Indeed you have, many thanks:D

it seems like the seat is available to all if no notice is affixed.

My interpretation would be, in the absence of anything in statute for the specific scenario, Irish Rail need to clarify the position and/or amend the conditions of carriage.

We only have clarification of a reserved seat with a notice, I can find nothing for a reserved seat without such notice.

foggy_lad

Graham wrote: »

My interpretation would be, in the absence of anything in statute for the specific scenario, Irish Rail need to clarify the position and/or amend the conditions of carriage.

We only have clarification of a reserved seat with a notice, I can find nothing for a reserved seat without such notice.

my interpretation is no reservation = seat available to all passengers + passenger with reservation claims refund for that leg of their journey from IR if no other seat was available in the same class of carriage.

It is unreasonable and grossly unprofessional to discommode any seated passenger because the operator has not got their house in order!

Hrududu

So if a conductor came along to sort this out, looked at the ticket, confirmed it was for the seat you were sitting in and asked you to move would you?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

my interpretation is no reservation = seat available to all passengers + passenger with reservation claims refund for that leg of their journey from IR if no other seat was available in the same class of carriage.

It is unreasonable to discommode any seated passenger because the operator has not got their house in order!

Its unreasonable to be so petty towards another passenger. Its a case of wanting to travel for free and wanting a reserved seat someone else has paid for is it? if they dont like it, they can claim of Irish Rail is that it?

Its bad form Foggy.

foggy_lad

Hrududu wrote: »

So if a conductor came along to sort this out, looked at the ticket, confirmed it was for the seat you were sitting in and asked you to move would you?

most likely not because the seat is officially not reserved unless the proper notification has been given. it is my understanding that a staff member may ask a passenger to move but has no powers if the legitimately seated passenger refuses. it is up to IR to deal with the passenger with the reservation at that stage and apologise to them for the system not working and finding them a different seat or informing them of their rights to a refund.

Graham

foggy_lad wrote: »

my interpretation is no reservation = seat available to all passengers + passenger with reservation claims refund for that leg of their journey from IR if no other seat was available in the same class of carriage.

It is unreasonable and grossly unprofessional to discommode any seated passenger because the operator has not got their house in order!

In the absence of specific legislation it's down to Irish Rail to decide the rules and communicate them. So we're back to Irish Rail to answer your original email rather than your opinion Foggy.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

most likely not because the seat is officially not reserved unless the proper notification has been given. it is my understanding that a staff member may ask a passenger to move but has no powers if the legitimately seated passenger refuses. it is up to IR to deal with the passenger with the reservation at that stage and apologise to them for the system not working and finding them a different seat or informing them of their rights to a refund.

The seat is reserved the moment the person pays for it. What notification do you want? a letter in the post saying please dont sit in seat c46 or an email with the manifest of all the reserved seats?

Graham

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The seat is reserved the moment the person pays for it. What notification do you want? a letter in the post saying please dont sit in seat c46 or an email with the manifest of all the reserved seats?

Re-reading the statute again

notice has been fixed or given by the Board that such compartment or seat is reserved

it could be argued that a document or ticket issued by Irish Rail (the Board) and held by a passenger for a reserved seat is a notice 'given by the board' that the seat or compartment is reserved.

There is nothing in the statute that specifies the 'notice' be provided in advance.

foggy_lad

Graham wrote: »

Re-reading the statute again



it could be argued that a document or ticket issued by Irish Rail (the Board) and held by a passenger for a reserved seat is a notice 'given by the board' that the seat or compartment is reserved.

There is nothing in the statute that specifies the 'notice' be provided in advance.

such notices must be posted/made available to all passengers and intending passengers just like when the board gives notice that a booking office is closed they don't just tell the next person to buy a ticket but place a closed sign on the booking office window.

Graham

foggy_lad wrote: »

such notices must be posted/made available to all passengers and intending passengers just like when the board gives notice that a booking office is closed they don't just tell the next person to buy a ticket but place a closed sign on the booking office window.

I've checked the statute and the conditions of carriage, there is absolutely nothing that specifies how such notice of seat reservations is given or delivered.

Hilly Bill

Coach G is the reserved coach on the enterprise standard class yet people will still sit in seats clearly marked as reserved and then pretend that they didnt know. Do people really need to be shown where to sit by another adult or should they have the cop on like any normal adult should have and work it out themselves?

Grolschevik

On a human level, this is one of the most depressing threads I've read on Boards outside of After Hours and Politics.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

such notices must be posted/made available to all passengers and intending passengers just like when the board gives notice that a booking office is closed they don't just tell the next person to buy a ticket but place a closed sign on the booking office window.

so you want the manifest handed out to each passenger as they board the train now?

foggy_lad

Graham wrote: »

I've checked the statute and the conditions of carriage, there is absolutely nothing that specifies how such notice of seat reservations is given or delivered.

It is reasonable to expect that such notice will be given/provided to all passengers by using electronic displays or paper notices or other ways but informing one single passenger of the seat reservation is not giving notice!

29. (1) No person shall occupy or use any compartment or seat in any vehicle on the railway upon which or in relation to which notice has been fixed or given by the Board that such compartment or seat is reserved, except the holder of a reservation ticket issued by the Board in respect of the holder's occupation or use of such compartment or seat.

Notice must be given to anyone expected not to use or occupy the reserved seating(again only my interpretation)

Graham

foggy_lad wrote: »

most likely not because the seat is officially not reserved unless the proper notification has been given. it is my understanding that a staff member may ask a passenger to move but has no powers if the legitimately seated passenger refuses. it is up to IR to deal with the passenger with the reservation at that stage and apologise to them for the system not working and finding them a different seat or informing them of their rights to a refund.

No notice required to move you Foggy, from the conditions of carriage:

Iarnród Éireann (in addition to its rights by common law, statute, contract or otherwise) reserves the right to assign to passengers the seats, which they are to occupy

A passenger shall not occupy a seat reserved for or assigned by Iarnród Éireann to another passenger.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is reasonable to expect that such notice will be given/provided to all passengers by using electronic displays or paper notices or other ways but informing one single passenger of the seat reservation is not giving notice!

Notice must be given to anyone expected not to use or occupy the reserved seating(again only my interpretation)

exactly , just your interpretation .

Was it you that rang the guards Foggy?

foggy_lad

Graham wrote: »

No notice required to move you Foggy, from the conditions of carriage:

Iarnród Éireann (in addition to its rights by common law, statute, contract or otherwise) reserves the right to assign to passengers the seats, which they are to occupy

IR reserves right to assign seats but that does not give any right to force a legitimately seated passenger from their seat if they are there lawfully.

A passenger shall not occupy a seat reserved for or assigned by Iarnród Éireann to another passenger.

I would always argue that no reservation or assignation can exist without notice being given by the board and where no notice has been given then all passengers are seated legitimately and lawfully so can be asked to move but are under no obligation to do so.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

IR reserves right to assign seats but that does not give any right to force a legitimately seated passenger from their seat if they are there lawfully.


I would always argue that no reservation or assignation can exist without notice being given by the board and where no notice has been given then all passengers are seated legitimately and lawfully so can be asked to move but are under no obligation to do so.

They dont do that.

Graham

foggy_lad wrote: »

I would always argue that no reservation or assignation can exist without notice being given by the board and where no notice has been given then all passengers are seated legitimately and lawfully so can be asked to move but are under no obligation to do so.

Nowhere does it state notice must be given and I don't think the government of the day intended statute to be optional. Likewise you agree to, and are obligated by the conditions of carriage when you use the services.

I'm just quoting the rules and statutes foggy, not trying to interpret them to fit any specific argument.

Graham

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They dont do that.

I don't blame them, I'd just have the Gardai meet the train at the next station.

The J Stands for Jay

foggy_lad wrote: »

That is only valid as notification and proof for the ticket holder, for all the other passengers know it could be a forgery.

Maybe the electronic sign is forged. Maybe the train is a forgery.

lismed

Ok, i'm intrigued by this and can see both sides. First of all i'm not a train user at all, but just looking at it from a context of reservations in any other aspect of life.

Say, i walk into a cavery restaurant on valentines day with my date and we go up and get served food. We walk down and find a seat and it has no markings on it to indicate a reservation( or upcoming reservation).
It is 1:15 so we sit and begin eating our lunch. The conversations really flowing, we're tasting eachothers food and i think i'm starting to fall in love.

Next thing At 1:30 a waitress arrives to the table and places a reserved sign on the table and following her another couple with the reservation saying that they've have reserved this table from 1.30. Do i just say no problem?
I'm halfway through eating my lunch, she's also starting to fall for me and there aren't any tables for 2 left?

Should i have to gather all of my belongings and try and find a new seat considering i did nothing wrong?

I don't think any1 would move without a fuss in that situation when in fact it is a similar situation. I know that the person with the reservation may feel aggrieved but there problem lies with the service provider not the other costumer? I know if i had a reserved seat on a train and the sign was not displayed i would not try take it from someone who has begun their journey in it.

I think in all other aspects of life, a reservation is only useful if other people are informed about it before taking up a service (or seat)

Pinch Flat

This sh!t really boils my p!ss. It's the same retards who can't work out pre booked cinema tickets because if their sense of self absorbed entitlement.

Happened to my mam a few months back - visited me in Dublin and prebooked a seat. She's nearly 70 and a lupus sufferer. Some ignorant Neanderthal, a bloke, refused to move from her prebooked seat and she had to stand in a packed train for the guts of an hour. Got the ir staff involved before train departed but to no avail. I would have dragged him out if the seat by the ears myself if i had of been there.

Same happens when I travel with my young son- being doing so since he was an infant, more often than not you'll get some fcuktard in a prebooked seat who will start remonstrating with you - even if you gave a screaming toddler, pram and all the other crap needed with a young child

My opinion on this wagon - well that's why they have trains coming the opposite way, so she can be forcibly removed and thrown under it so everyone else can get in with their lives

Wang King

end of the road wrote: »

but they don't have to move unless told to by an irish rail staff member with proof of the reservation

The ticket is a legally binding contract, thought even you knew that.

Wang King

foggy_lad wrote: »

showing it on the ticket is pointless! it is not a valid reservation until the board notifies all other passengers by using a notice or electronic signs that particular seats are reserved and thus unavailable from stations A, B, C etc

Of course it is valid, nowhere in terms and conditions of the contract you enter into with iarranrod eireann does names not being lit up nullify this contract,

bluemartin

I haven't read all the thread so apologies:o but I cant help thinking of Ryanair and its system of allocated seating, could it work with IR?

Agent J

Wow. This such a silly thread tangent.

For a passenger to refuse to move for another passenger after seeing they do have a valid booked reservation(By whatevever means) in the seat they now occupy is an act of sheet bullheaded pettyness. You can try and quote by laws but your issue is with Irish Rail not with this passenger so why on earth would be a dick to them?

Starting to sound like one of those freemen on the land arguements. Do you have to ask the Irish rail employee if they are on their oath before it's a valid reservation?

Mrsmum

lismed wrote: »

Ok, i'm intrigued by this and can see both sides. First of all i'm not a train user at all, but just looking at it from a context of reservations in any other aspect of life.

Say, i walk into a cavery restaurant on valentines day with my date and we go up and get served food. We walk down and find a seat and it has no markings on it to indicate a reservation( or upcoming reservation).
It is 1:15 so we sit and begin eating our lunch. The conversations really flowing, we're tasting eachothers food and i think i'm starting to fall in love.

Next thing At 1:30 a waitress arrives to the table and places a reserved sign on the table and following her another couple with the reservation saying that they've have reserved this table from 1.30. Do i just say no problem?
I'm halfway through eating my lunch, she's also starting to fall for me and there aren't any tables for 2 left?

Should i have to gather all of my belongings and try and find a new seat considering i did nothing wrong?

I don't think any1 would move without a fuss in that situation when in fact it is a similar situation. I know that the person with the reservation may feel aggrieved but there problem lies with the service provider not the other costumer? I know if i had a reserved seat on a train and the sign was not displayed i would not try take it from someone who has begun their journey in it.

I think in all other aspects of life, a reservation is only useful if other people are informed about it before taking up a service (or seat)

That's exactly what it feels like midjourney. People who knowlingly sit in other people's seats are another matter altogether but you see more often than not the name is plain to see when the prebooked person gets on and you get a filty look of what are you doing in my seat and in the stress of gathering up your belongings you don't get to explain to that person that their name wasn't there for the last two hours like they assume it was.

dm09

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Coach G is the reserved coach on the enterprise standard class yet people will still sit in seats clearly marked as reserved and then pretend that they didnt know. Do people really need to be shown where to sit by another adult or should they have the cop on like any normal adult should have and work it out themselves?

From the Enterprise Passenger Charter:

Reserving a seat
You can reserve a seat in 1st Plus at no extra cost.
Please phone NI Railways on
+44(0)28 9066 6630
or
Iarnród Éireann on
+353(0)1850 366222
to reserve
your seat. You can also purchase tickets and reserve 1st
Plus seats online at www.irishrail.ie. You should be in
your seat at least 5 minutes before the departure time
shown. If we cannot give you your reservation, we will
refund the fare of your single journey in travel vouchers
if no other 1st Plus seat is available for you.

http://www.translink.co.uk/Documents/Services/enterprise/Enterprise%20Charter%2020120514.pdf

Coach G is the car where you can reserve seats in standard class on the enterprise, they don't have an electronic notification, instead they place printed cards in the notification holders above the seats. I have often sat in non booked seats in this car or sat in a reserved seat and if the passenger comes along I would move which is fair enough but a lot of time you will notice that pre-booked seats are not taking on this train. So if the seat was notified as been reserved from connolly, how long after departure from connolly should the seat reservation be honoured?


Also from Irish Rails FAQ

I did not get my reserved seat do I get a refund?

If we fail to honour your seat reservation, and no other seat of similar standard on the same service is available for you, we will refund the fare of your single journey in travel vouchers.

So can failing to honour a seat reservation be interpreted as they failed to place the reservation notification at the seat?