Hunting near members of the public.

CardinalJ

Firstly, I'm not anti gun/anti hunting. I don't own a gun but I've no problem with guys going hunting for what ever they're into.

I was out hiking up Lugnaquilla in Wicklow this morning. A group of three of us were on the way up, there was also a group of four other people near us. We were all going up a very common route where anyone coming from the Glenmalure side would use. There were two lads up the mountain from us who I presumed were hiking up, but it turns out were hunting deer.

They shot down at something that was between us and them, turned out to be a deer, and then gutted the thing about 80/100m away from the route most hikers take up.

Now I don't think I was in danger, but the guys can't have known who was where on the trails or mountain. There were no signs up re hunting or culling.

I'm presuming this isn't normal, or if guys are very confident it's safe are they the kind of shots they'd take? Any info or input appreciated.

FISMA

CardinalJ wrote: »

I was out hiking up Lugnaquilla in Wicklow this morning.

Who owned the land on which you were hiking? Is it the same owner as the land the hunters were on?

CardinalJ wrote: »

They shot down at something that was between us and them

How far away from you were they when they took the shot?

Were you able to see their firearms? Did you see the deer before or after the shot?

We need to know whether you were in-line with the shot or even a small angle thereof.

Even if the lads were shooting from a steep incline, and you on the horizontal, in the plane of the shot, shooting would be unethical.

CardinalJ wrote: »

and then gutted the thing about 80/100m away from the route most hikers take up.

A football field away from the route does not bother me as much. It is doubtful that you would have seen the gralloch had you not been aware of the shot.

Give us some more information and we'll give you our two cents.

FWIW - if you are close to hunting areas during season, it is best to cya, or at least your head!

Whenever I am out hunting, or hiking or mountain biking during the season, there is always a bit of blaze orange on my head. I would encourage you to do the same, if you are coming that close to hunters.

Blaze orange is the most un-natural color in the fields and mountains. I have literally seen other hunters miles away in mountains or valleys, because of the orange color.

sniperman

sounds a bit dangerous to me,high power rifles are used to shoot deer,and unless a proper backstop is behind the target,gods knows where a bullet could end up,either those guys knew what they doing,or were complete morons with no regard for safety

CardinalJ

Not 100% sure who owned the land, there's certainly a big section on the lead up to where it is that belongs to Coillte.
I wasn't fully aware of their firearms until I heard the shot but then I could see them clearly. The shot was at a bit of an angle to myself, the deer wasnt direct between me and them, Id guess 15 degrees maybe.

Appreciate what you're saying in relation to wearing some bright colours but they seemed a bit close for comfort to me, but then again I've no idea what their level of skill is. They were shooting down an incline of maybe 30/35 degrees and I would have been on a slightly less steep section.

The group behind me I think would have been very close to directly in line with them and the deer.

Chiparus

was there much snow up there?

CardinalJ

Yea, tons once you're up over the waterfall, was great.

aaakev

Was this on the trail in front of fraughan rock glen? Hunters on the hill facing the rocks?

If your hiking lig from glenmalure you are going straight through the middle of a few private hunting leases that are ether side of that track so will often see hunters

wirehairmax

CardinalJ wrote: »

Not 100% sure who owned the land, there's certainly a big section on the lead up to where it is that belongs to Coillte.
I wasn't fully aware of their firearms until I heard the shot but then I could see them clearly. The shot was at a bit of an angle to myself, the deer wasnt direct between me and them, Id guess 15 degrees maybe.

Appreciate what you're saying in relation to wearing some bright colours but they seemed a bit close for comfort to me, but then again I've no idea what their level of skill is. They were shooting down an incline of maybe 30/35 degrees and I would have been on a slightly less steep section.

The group behind me I think would have been very close to directly in line with them and the deer.

You see, you may not have known who owned the land that you so freely use but I'd be 99% certain those boys who were hunting there do because they're probably paying top dollar to shoot there. Hill shooting adjacent to a coillte wood is premium land especially on the glen or near lug. Hillwalkers seem to think they have a divine right across other peoples land but dont like anyone else using it.
The chances of you being shot are slim enough as long as you werent directly in front of or behind the deer. As for the gralloch, grow a pair and get on with it. Its necessary to get the stomach out as quick as possible to save the meat from contamination. On open hill, you're not going to drag the deer two miles back to the transport or put a tent over you so thats life up there as we know it. If you want to be part of it, you may get over the fact that deer stalking takes place up there and take all reasonable precautions, keep your wits about you and grow a stronger stomach.

Cass

CardinalJ wrote: »

Now I don't think I was in danger, but the guys can't have known who was where on the trails or mountain. There were no signs up re hunting or culling.

CardinalJ wrote: »

Not 100% sure who owned the land, there's certainly a big section on the lead up to where it is that belongs to Coillte.

You were on land (without knowing who owns it or having permission) and seen two guys shoot a deer?

Excuse my disbelief and accusational tone, but i don't see what the problem is here. If the guys were there they either have private permission or a lease. Either way they are legally covered to be there. If it's Coilte land, then i know they have rules as to when and until what time, game can be shot. A hunter must know and learn this. Do you know it? I doubt it as you don't know whose land you are on. If neither you OR the hunters have permission then they are as in the wrong as you, and must face the consequences for their own actions.

I sound annoyed because the first responses above are the usual "what did the hunter do?", "How did the hunter react?", or my personal favorite "They're morons" for some imaginary and non proven shooting of "high powered rifles" with no backstops. FFS. Well excuse me, but what were you doing there? On land you have no permission to be on? I don't know the area, but as i've said here dozens of times there is no such thing as "public land". Every piece of land is owned by someone. To be on land without the permission of the owner is trespassing.

CardinalJ

If you want to be annoyed get annoyed with anyone saying all the stuff in your rant. I didn't say any of it, I just asked a question.

You talking about divine right of hillwalkers going where they like is like me talking about the divine right of hunters shooting where they like. There's a few tools in each camp who ruin it for everyone.

I'm asking a basic enough question, that's it, I'm not off on a rant about the dangers of shooting.

Thanks for all the responses

The Aussie

These type of Threads are becoming Saturday night staple around here, from Hotel Employees playing Policeman to people who don't want Foxes shot in any Month that does not have the letter R in it.

Coincidence???

CardinalJ

The Aussie wrote:

These type of Threads are becoming Saturday night staple around here, from Hotel Employees playing Policeman to people who don't want Foxes shot in any Month that does not have the letter R in it.

My first post, no issues at all with hunting.

tikkahunter

CardinalJ wrote: »

If you want to be annoyed get annoyed with anyone saying all the stuff in your rant. I didn't say any of it, I just asked a question.

You talking about divine right of hillwalkers going where they like is like me talking about the divine right of hunters shooting where they like. There's a few tools in each camp who ruin it for everyone.

I'm asking a basic enough question, that's it, I'm not off on a rant about the dangers of shooting.

Thanks for all the responses

The divine right is the thousands of euro they are paying to shoot in that area , which is what they would be paying to shoot any bit of land around that area, how much are you paying to walk it ? Had you any permission to be on it in the first place? Standard enough questions i would ask anybody that where on my permissions that i didnt know.

Cass

CardinalJ wrote: »

You talking about divine right of hillwalkers going where they like is like me talking about the divine right of hunters shooting where they like. There's a few tools in each camp who ruin it for everyone.

There are most definitely tools in both camps, but the difference with "my camp" is we have firearms and by that simple fact we are held to an impossibly high level of standards by EVERYONE. I made no mention of this "divine right" of hillwalkers. I don't go hillwalking, without a gun anyway, and i've no time for knee high sock wearers that get stuck up mountains due to lack of knowledge and preparation. However i don't begrudge their pastime as long as they are held to the same standards as us. IOW have permission for the lands they are on, and be respectful to others, especially those already there, before them.

I'm asking a basic enough question, that's it, I'm not off on a rant about the dangers of shooting.

Sorry, but from here you're asking a loaded question(s). As for danger you mentioned it twice:

CardinalJ wrote: »

Now I don't think I was in danger,...........

CardinalJ wrote: »

The group behind me I think would have been very close to directly in line with them and the deer.

In the above tow excerpts you have implied that you might have been in danger, but do not know for certain, and the group behind you most likely were.

All assumptions, all with no shooting experience to back it up, no knowledge of how a rifle & scope works, all on land you have no permission to be on, and the entire situation is all from your perspective.

I just wonder if the lads involved were first to post would the thread read something like:

"Hillwalkers ignore shooting signs, and walk into active culling area".


I'm not out to fight with you, but in every thread of this nature the first thing that happens is the hunters are on the back foot trying to defend the actions of a few from the accusations of less. All based on one side of a story.


So until i know or hear more than your side i'd still stand by my assertion above, and ask where you stand on the land permission, etc?

Cass

The Aussie wrote: »

Coincidence???

No such animal.

meathstevie

CardinalJ wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not anti gun/anti hunting. I don't own a gun but I've no problem with guys going hunting for what ever they're into.

I was out hiking up Lugnaquilla in Wicklow this morning. A group of three of us were on the way up, there was also a group of four other people near us. We were all going up a very common route where anyone coming from the Glenmalure side would use. There were two lads up the mountain from us who I presumed were hiking up, but it turns out were hunting deer.

They shot down at something that was between us and them, turned out to be a deer, and then gutted the thing about 80/100m away from the route most hikers take up.

Now I don't think I was in danger, but the guys can't have known who was where on the trails or mountain. There were no signs up re hunting or culling.

I'm presuming this isn't normal, or if guys are very confident it's safe are they the kind of shots they'd take? Any info or input appreciated.

Pretty straightforward, if you did not see the deer dropping on the shot the shot didn't strike anywhere near you. You're mentioning a distance of 80 to 100m away from the road and lads shooting from a steep incline so that makes me conclude the back stop was spot on. The worst shot out there wouldn't be able to miss by the length of a football pitch. Also keep in mind that it's highly likely that the hunter would have had a quick look across the road to check that it was clear before taking the shot.

CardinalJ

quote=Cass] I'm not out to fight with you, but in every thread of this nature the first thing that happens is the hunters are on the back foot trying to defend the actions of a few from the accusations of less. All based on one side of a story.[/quote]

Not trying to have a go at hunters. Maybe people come into this forum to do that, I'm not.

Cass wrote:

So until i know or hear more than your side i'd still stand by my assertion above, and ask where you stand on the land permission, etc?

I don't have a side, I had a question. I didn't have permission to be where I was, but at the time I heard a shot I was on a coillte fire road.

In terms of land permission anyone going onto land should have permission. I'm not one of those people who just thinks they've a right to park their car where ever they want and head off.

CardinalJ

meathstevie wrote:

Pretty straightforward, if you did not see the deer dropping on the shot the shot didn't strike anywhere near you. You're mentioning a distance of 80 to 100m away from the road and lads shooting from a steep incline so that makes me conclude the back stop was spot on. The worst shot out there wouldn't be able to miss by the length of a football pitch. Also keep in mind that it's highly likely that the hunter would have had a quick look across the road to check that it was clear before taking the shot.

Literally the kind of answer I was looking for. cheers.

Maudi

"The chances of you being shot are slim enough. ....class.

Cass

CardinalJ wrote: »

Maybe people come into this forum to do that, I'm not.

They do. Time and time again.

I don't have a side, I had a question. I didn't have permission to be where I was, but at the time I heard a shot I was on a coillte fire road.

In terms of land permission anyone going onto land should have permission. I'm not one of those people who just thinks they've a right to park their car where ever they want and head off.

But you just said you had no permission to be where you were?

CardinalJ wrote: »

Literally the kind of answer I was looking for. cheers.

To what?

You see i'm still at a loss.

You were on land you had no permission to be on (your own admission), and i assume the people behind you were the same? So all of ye were trespassing. Then two hunters shot a deer, and your first thought was to come on the hunting section asking is it normal or safe for a hunter to shoot a deer on land with people nearby?

You should not have been on the land. If we allow for the fact they had permission (which we must as trespassing with a firearm is serious enough, but on Coilte land it's strictly enforced), then the hunters had the right to be there, but none of ye did. The distance, according to you, is less than that which 99.9% of people keep their rifle zeored at meaning he would have to aim off purposely to miss a deer sized animal.

At no point in the process did the hunters come at you, shout at you, give out about you being on land you should not have been, etc Yet you want to know if it's normal or safe, what they did? They seemed to have acted 100% in the right yet the responses above would actually question the hunters.

I'm not saying we#ll all saints, but i'll give any man that knows the penalties for acting the dick with a gun, the benefit of the doubt. When coupled with the admissions of trespassing, etc. then he has my full support. If i were the hunters i'd be taking reg plates, and reporting trespassers to An Gardaí.

CardinalJ

Cass wrote:

But you just said you had no permission to be where you were?

On a coillte fire road?! Come on.

CardinalJ wrote:

I'm presuming this isn't normal, or if guys are very confident it's safe are they the kind of shots they'd take? Any info or input appreciated.

This is basically what my question was. An other poster explained it to me.

Chiparus

CardinalJ wrote: »

On a coillte fire road?! Come on.

Coillte sells leases for hunters to have the permission to shoot deer. These cost many thousands of euro.

The reason I asked if there was snow up there was that you would have been very visible ( unless you were in all white) and it seems to me there was a safe backstop, so it seems reasonable to take the shot.

wirehairmax

Maudi wrote: »

"The chances of you being shot are slim enough. ....class.

The chances of being hit by a bus are slim also but if you step in front of one, well the chances increase don't they? In other words stay the f*** out of places where you've no permission to be and you'll be safe enough.

dodderangler

The only issue I see here is the fact your out and about "hillwalking" on land you've no fcuking permission to be on.
I'm actually sick to the teeth with hill walkers and the likes.
I have permission to hunt on some great land or well it used to be until you lot turned up walking everywhere.
Go to parks or something.

yubabill1

I think the OP has come on here and civilly asked a genuine question of us hunters.

Personally, I have found a huge increase of people out walking etc in the last 20 years and this is just a fact of life we have to live with.

I would feel perfectly entitled to walk with my kids along a Coillte forestry road. But then, if I saw a deerstalker in the vicinity I would know what to expect and whether we were safe etc.

These people did not have the same knowledge at the time, but perhaps in the future they will have a better idea.

It seems to me that they were in no danger, but that doesn't mean they didn't have concerns.

Hunters are thin enough on the ground and you might only see them like a hungry fox - say at the end of a season like this, where a shooting lease was paid and deer numbers have plummeted since last season.

I think it's fair enough if hikers are conscientious enough to know that hunters are around and come here to ask genuine questions if they have concerns. Better than going to the Gardaí and getting the helicopter out, like has happened in the UK to pigeon shooters more than once.

CaptainInsano

meathstevie wrote: »

Pretty straightforward, if you did not see the deer dropping on the shot the shot didn't strike anywhere near you. You're mentioning a distance of 80 to 100m away from the road and lads shooting from a steep incline so that makes me conclude the back stop was spot on. The worst shot out there wouldn't be able to miss by the length of a football pitch. Also keep in mind that it's highly likely that the hunter would have had a quick look across the road to check that it was clear before taking the shot.

Amazed that this answer took so long to come. Too many overly defensive hunters here.

CaptainInsano

dodderangler wrote: »

The only issue I see here is the fact your out and about "hillwalking" on land you've no fcuking permission to be on.
I'm actually sick to the teeth with hill walkers and the likes.
I have permission to hunt on some great land or well it used to be until you lot turned up walking everywhere.
Go to parks or something.

Interesting. I'd always have a good look around for anyone when taking a shot. Even on private land. Someone trespassing accidently doesn't justify possibly putting them at risk. That's all the Op was concerned about, so the point of whether or not he should have been there holds no water, he has a right to safety. Only one person gave a decent answer clarifying he was.

cookimonster

CardinalJ wrote: »

On a coillte fire road?! Come on.........

This is the problem, none of us have the 'absolute right' to be on Coillte land. Stalkers can only be there under permit and prior permisson from the forest manager from the hours of dawn to early morning, the woods are 'closed' to anyone else. People wishing to use the wood for other recreational activities need to also apply for permits. No person has the right to be on Coillte land during the hours of darkness, as is becoming very popular with mountain bikers treking at night. Even if there is a right of way through the wood this pertains to the path, trail etc, as is the case with right aways crossing or bordering private land. High amenity woods, that attract visitors, picnic spots are not leased out for hunting etc.

At present I shoot a Coillte lease and have had several instances of early morning walkers trek right past our posted signs, with the exception of one guy who came in off the back of the hill, he was still in the wrong as the open hill he crossed is ********'s land and part of his farm (as shown on map). We shoot a similar property that one whole side of a valley. The farmer owns from stream edge to sky line and farms sheep here, but most hill walkers found here think its free roaming and are surprised to find they are 'sharing' the hills with hunters.

The One Doctor

I have no knowledge of guns or hunting, but I'd say the OP asked a reasonable question that took quite a while to be properly answered. I'd be questioning my safety in that situation too and would be looking for answers.... not dismissive, defensive, ivory tower answers, but honest answers that gave me the info I needed to be reassured and also to make myself safer in the future.

It's not smart to be seen to be dismissing people's concerns because they don't know what you're doing. Especially when it involves a gun.

aaakev

In fairness to the OP i know the route he walked and i know the leases ether side of it because i have shot there many times as it is friends of mine who are on them. Its a public right of way up there that he or anyone else doesn't need permission to walk. The private leases are ether side of the road and there is forestry there too.

The op was not trespassing and asked a simple question because he didn't know something

deeksofdoom

Its dog eat dog on here sometimes.

Hopefully the OP will have a better understanding of how deerstalking works and how to be mindful of shooters when he sees them and that shooters will be mindful of hill walkers when they see them.

There are some tools out there; try not to be shot by one of them or shoot one of them.:o

CardinalJ

Lads I came here and asked a question. Most of you who've answered (Including the mod) have decided that I was trespassing on private land, couldn't give a sh!te about private land, or am here to wind you up.

If you want to have a thread called 'I'm pissed off with hikers' have one, but I'm not gonna take a ton of **** about 'you lot' etc.

Like I said, I appreciate all the answers that took me at face value (or actually had a clue where I was at the time I was hiking). Good luck.

wirehairmax wrote: »

Hillwalkers seem to think they have a divine right across other peoples land but dont like anyone else using it.

Cass wrote: »

i've no time for knee high sock wearers that get stuck up mountains due to lack of knowledge and preparation.

dodderangler wrote: »

I'm actually sick to the teeth with hill walkers and the likes.
I have permission to hunt on some great land or well it used to be until you lot turned up walking everywhere.
Go to parks or something.

yubabill1

OP, if there were more hikers like you it would be great.

You can't really blame the lads for being a bit prickly - we get trolled more often than not, usually in an insidious way where the poster's intentions are not immediately obvious.

As you can see, we are more than capable of defending ourselves.

We live in a beautiful country, let's continue to enjoy it together.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

I think it's fair enough if hikers are conscientious enough to know that hunters are around and come here to ask genuine questions if they have concerns. .

But the OP didn't. He knew nothing about the hunters until the shot. Meaning the responsibility for their welfare lay with the hunters. Like a bad driver that depends on the alertness of others to prevent him having an accident.

CaptainInsano wrote: »

Amazed that this answer took so long to come. Too many overly defensive hunters here.

It's the hunting forum, and we get trolled regularly so thread carefully with your accusations.

CaptainInsano wrote: »

Interesting. I'd always have a good look around for anyone when taking a shot. Even on private land. Someone trespassing accidently doesn't justify possibly putting them at risk. .

Accidental trespass is still trespass, and as above, why should the responsibility of your welfare rest with a hunter/shooter or other simply because you are too lazy to identify the land you are on and whether you have permission to be on it. (you is the metaphorical you, not literal you).

aaakev wrote: »

The op was not trespassing and asked a simple question because he didn't know something

The OP did not know.


Here is a thread from 2 weeks ago. Started off innocent enough, and within an hour it turned into a witch hunt in which the OP seemed to be the offended party, but actually was the offending party. That thread was closed fairly sharply, but shows where threads can and do go.

CaptainInsano

Cass wrote: »

But the OP didn't. He knew nothing about the hunters until the shot. Meaning the responsibility for their welfare lay with the hunters. Like a bad driver that depends on the alertness of others to prevent him having an accident.

It's the hunting forum, and we get trolled regularly so thread carefully with your accusations.

Accidental trespass is still trespass, and as above, why should the responsibility of your welfare rest with a hunter/shooter or other simply because you are too lazy to identify the land you are on and whether you have permission to be on it. (you is the metaphorical you, not literal you).

The OP did not know.


Here is a thread from 2 weeks ago. Started off innocent enough, and within an hour it turned into a witch hunt in which the OP seemed to be the offended party, but actually was the offending party. That thread was closed fairly sharply, but shows where threads can and do go.

But just answer his question from the start then and if he continues to pursue the topic negatively then fair enough. Everyone shouldn't come out all guns blazing, if you'll forgive the pun, from the get go. Its makes everyone look bad and everyone else get their backs up.
And sorry, I think a hunters number one priority should be the safety of his fellow humans. If, heaven forbid, the Op was shot and had accidentally trespassed, I would sincerely hope no one here would say ''well what was he doing there in the first place?''

deeksofdoom

CaptainInsano wrote: »

I think a hunters number one priority should be the safety of his fellow humans. If, heaven forbid, the Op was shot and had accidentally trespassed, I would sincerely hope no one here would say ''well what was he doing there in the first place?''

Safety is always the number one priority for anyone out shooting, the same should go for anyone out hiking, that should be fcuking obvious.

Enough of the bullsh1t statements.

Wadi14

I just had another look at the Forum Rules No1 is interesting reading hhhmmmm lol

deeksofdoom

Wadi14 wrote: »

I just had another look at the Forum Rules No1 is interesting reading hhhmmmm lol

He's preaching to the converted.:rolleyes:

dodderangler

CaptainInsano wrote: »

But just answer his question from the start then and if he continues to pursue the topic negatively then fair enough. Everyone shouldn't come out all guns blazing, if you'll forgive the pun, from the get go. Its makes everyone look bad and everyone else get their backs up.
And sorry, I think a hunters number one priority should be the safety of his fellow humans. If, heaven forbid, the Op was shot and had accidentally trespassed, I would sincerely hope no one here would say ''well what was he doing there in the first place?''

Well suppose il ask.
What wa he doing there in the first place??
We as hunters have to ask around to get permission which is hard as it is so what makes hill walkers or anyone for that matter think they can ignore that and walk onto land that they have no right to be on completely ignoring the fact that there may be lads out hunting animals.

aaakev

dodderangler wrote: »

Well suppose il ask.
What wa he doing there in the first place??
We as hunters have to ask around to get permission which is hard as it is so what makes hill walkers or anyone for that matter think they can ignore that and walk onto land that they have no right to be on completely ignoring the fact that there may be lads out hunting animals.

if you knew the area you would know you dont need permission to be there, he was doing no wrong

CaptainInsano

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Safety is always the number one priority for anyone out shooting, the same should go for anyone out hiking, that should be fcuking obvious.

Enough of the bullsh1t statements.

I don't doubt it. But walking onto land by accident is far below shooting someone by accident. Anyway, it's been established that neither party did anything wrong.

juice1304

I have had permission and have hunted on the other side of that mountain for many years now, he dosen't need permission to be there as there is a public right of way... Still all parties need to have their whits about them up there it is dangerous enough as it is.