Considering a Nissan Leaf - sanity check please?!!

Benny_Cake

I went to a Renault-owned dealership today to see the Zoe.

They couldn't have been less interested. I was told over the phone that I could take a test drive but when I arrived the car hadn't been charged and the charger was out of commission. The car itself was hidden where nobody could see it. The salesman asked me about my daily commute (25km each way) and told me that the Zoe wasnt very practical and hadn't sold well (I wonder why?!). He then did his best to steer me towards a Clio. The Clio is a nice car but not what I came to see. The impression I got was that the Zoe is viewed as an embarrassing hassle. The shame of it is that it's a lovely little car, and from what I've read it's a pleasant car to drive with a versatile charger.

I was fairly browned off at that stage. To avoid a wasted journey, I stopped at the Nissan dealership down the road and the contrast was incredible. The staff obviously love the Leaf and several people were looking at it when I arrived. The salesperson I spoke to started by being honest about the type of person that EV's don't suit. Once I told him about my car usage pattern he showed real enthusiasm for the car, explained the finance options and let me take it for a test drive.

The Leaf is a fine car and very pleasant to drive, and I'm definitely giving thought to taking the plunge. I think the Zoe has the edge on external looks and the charger, I definitely got the sense that Nissan are 100% behind the Leaf and that they'd work to resolve any issues.

You should have asked the dealer why they lack the interest in selling the Zoe ?

Who are they ? name and shame. I always tell dealers I'm very active on EV forums on the internet, it makes them a bit less uninterested.

Barlow Nissan in Kilkenny are terrific and much much better than Belgard Nissan, the sales guy Paul in Barlow Nissan Kilkenny was terrific couldn't have been more interested in selling the leaf. He even met me twice with the loaner leaf in Carlow which was well out of his way both for me to pick it up and drop it off, I couldn't have asked for more really.

If you are interested in buying a Leaf PM me and I'll give you his details.

Benny_Cake

Deleted User wrote: »

You should have asked the dealer why they lack the interest in selling the Zoe ?

Who are they ? name and shame. I always tell dealers I'm very active on EV forums on the internet, it makes them a bit less uninterested.

Barlow Nissan in Kilkenny are terrific and much much better than Belgard Nissan, the sales guy Paul in Barlow Nissan Kilkenny was terrific couldn't have been more interested in selling the leaf. He even met me twice with the loaner leaf in Carlow which was well out of his way both for me to pick it up and drop it off, I couldn't have asked for more really.

If you are interested in buying a Leaf PM me and I'll give you his details.

It was a dealership owned by Renault in South Dublin, not sure what the policy on naming and shaming is here (I'm sure people can figure it out from this post anyway)! I got the impression that it wasn't just the salesperson I was dealing with in this case, but that the dealers were disinterested. Renault have put a huge amount into EV's yet a Renault owned garage doesn't have a working charge point and hides it's flagship EV away? Although they did have a Twizy in a prominent position! I asked the chap I was speaking to if he'd driven the Zoe and he mentioned that they had some training on it a year or so ago, and promptly changed the subject back to the Clio.

Of course none of this reflects on the Zoe itself, it wouldn't be the first time that a great product was let down by lousy marketing/salesmanship (I owned a Commodore Amiga back in the day!). I haven't heard great things about Renault customer support generally but I may give another Renault dealership a chance.

Actually I tried the Leaf at Windsor on the Belgard Road and I'd give them top marks for knowing everything about the car and being interested in selling it. Two other potential customers were asking about it while I was there.

Benny_Cake

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Actually I tried the Leaf at Windsor on the Belgard Road and I'd give them top marks for knowing everything about the car and being interested in selling it. Two other potential customers were asking about it while I was there.

I don't think there is a restriction to naming a bad dealer ?

I disliked Windsor Belgard and I didn't like that they never called me back and found them condescending. But perhaps you got a different sales person.

Benny_Cake

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't think there is a restriction to naming a bad dealer ?

I disliked Windsor Belgard and I didn't like that they never called me back and found them condescending. But perhaps you got a different sales person.

You're probably right, it was Renault on the Belgard Road.

Honestly, I found Windsor Belgard just fine to deal with. Very busy dealership though so I can see how there might be a tendency to not follow up with people,although it's not an excuse.

Regarding the Leaf, I'm just wondering what you think of the 6.6kw charger Mad_Lad, is it worth getting?

Benny_Cake

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Regarding the Leaf, I'm just wondering what you think of the 6.6kw charger Mad_Lad, is it worth getting?

Well in 3 weeks of owning the Leaf the 6.6 kw charger has saved me twice from needing a fast charger, you can put back 50% in about 2 hrs. Easing the burden on the fast chargers that are not so fast in winter. And I got to say, it was nice to hop into the car and drive off without having to drive to and wait at a fast charger.

It's €900 extra and only 25 PM extra on PCP for me over 3 years. I think if paying for a new car then 25 PM extra is not a lot to spend for the extra convenience, imo, better to have it than want it, especially if a fast charger is down.

Benny_Cake

Deleted User wrote: »

Well in 3 weeks of owning the Leaf the 6.6 kw charger has saved me twice from needing a fast charger, you can put back 50% in about 2 hrs. Easing the burden on the fast chargers that are not so fast in winter. And I got to say, it was nice to hop into the car and drive off without having to drive to and wait at a fast charger.

It's €900 extra and only 25 PM extra on PCP for me over 3 years. I think if paying for a new car then 25 PM extra is not a lot to spend for the extra convenience, imo, better to have it than want it, especially if a fast charger is down.

Cheers Mad_Lad. That's pretty much what I was thinking. I don't expect to need fast chargers too often, but if I was stuck at one and in a jam the 6.6kw would allow me to charge up enough to make it to the next FCP without losing a day. There's an SCP near my in-laws in Templemore - currently marked as out of order on the map, but if it's ever sorted it would probably allow me to drive home from there on a single charge.

delthedriver

Be careful what you wish for..............

I am your reality check !!

Seriously , do you really want to drive a Nissan Leaf at this stage in your life?

Sure electric vehicles may be the future, however live in the present .!:)

Benny_Cake

delthedriver wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for..............

I am your reality check !!

Seriously , do you really want to drive a Nissan Leaf at this stage in your life?

Sure electric vehicles may be the future, however live in the present .!:)

I don't know what you mean by "this stage in your life" (in my mid-late 30s btw)! A car is purely a utility for me rather than an end in itself. I've never bought a new car, never been able to afford it or justify it but I'm prepared to reconsider that if it delivers savings in other areas (fuel, tax, etc) and an EV does that. A Leaf may not be the world's most exciting car, but hey, I'm driving a ten year old Mondeo at the moment and the only exciting thing about that is when I go to the garage to find out what the latest problem will cost me!

Obviously EVs aren't for everyone, I just posted this thread to find out if they were for me.

delthedriver

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I don't know what you mean by "this stage in your life" (in my mid-late 30s btw)! A car is purely a utility for me rather than an end in itself. I've never bought a new car, never been able to afford it or justify it but I'm prepared to reconsider that if it delivers savings in other areas (fuel, tax, etc) and an EV does that. A Leaf may not be the world's most exciting car, but hey, I'm driving a ten year old Mondeo at the moment and the only exciting thing about that is when I go to the garage to find out what the latest problem will cost me!

Obviously EVs aren't for everyone, I just posted this thread to find out if they were for me.

I think you have all the info you need and are on the verge of making a significant purchase. Sincerely I wish you well with your new car and hope you enjoy many years of safe motoring.

Best Wishes,

d.:)

Benny_Cake

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Cheers Mad_Lad. That's pretty much what I was thinking. I don't expect to need fast chargers too often, but if I was stuck at one and in a jam the 6.6kw would allow me to charge up enough to make it to the next FCP without losing a day. There's an SCP near my in-laws in Templemore - currently marked as out of order on the map, but if it's ever sorted it would probably allow me to drive home from there on a single charge.

Yeah two Carlow charge points have been down for a few weeks also. In fact if you look at the charge point map there are a lot of AC points out of service, there must be a shortage of parts.

Ecars have a FB page people should go there and ask them what's the story, the more people that complain the better.

But if there is a standard charge point near your in-laws then you will get about 50% charge in 2 hours. You may have to pay for parking though, or you could get the granny cable and run an extension lead from a socket at the house ?

delthedriver

delthedriver wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for..............

I am your reality check !!

Seriously , do you really want to drive a Nissan Leaf at this stage in your life?

Sure electric vehicles may be the future, however live in the present .!:)

A leaf to me is a lot better than, say, a Golf tractor diesel, the Golf is seriously over priced for a tiny car with a lot less spec than a Leaf top spec.

What I save over all, compared to the Prius, a 60 mpg car including electricity pays half the repayments on the Leaf on PCP.

I've nearly 3,000 Kms in just over 3 weeks on the Leaf so it's do as much as the prius did, and for the rarer long trip, 150 miles + I'll just take my partners car.

I would not drive a petrol or diesel car again even having to charge over lunch at a fast charger while I'm waiting for work to install the charge point. But I honestly don't care about leaving work to sit in the car for 20-30 mins having lunch and watching a bit of netflix.

reboot

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I don't know what you mean by "this stage in your life" (in my mid-late 30s btw)! A car is purely a utility for me rather than an end in itself. I've never bought a new car, never been able to afford it or justify it but I'm prepared to reconsider that if it delivers savings in other areas (fuel, tax, etc) and an EV does that. A Leaf may not be the world's most exciting car, but hey, I'm driving a ten year old Mondeo at the moment and the only exciting thing about that is when I go to the garage to find out what the latest problem will cost me!

Obviously EVs aren't for everyone, I just posted this thread to find out if they were for me.

I know exactly where you are coming from and your frustration with Renault dealership is felt,here also.I recently gave them little out of ten in a recent Renault customer survey.The survey kept asking about an oil filter. My frustration is really with Renault but they don't talk to us early adaptors Several things to bare in mind, first its the Renault/Nissan association that came together to produce Leaf and Zoe. The dealers make 4% on a sale,know little about EVs and some don't want to. They have to hit an EV target or Renault will not be happy with them. I know of a dealership that was asked to fork out 10k for a charge point, some NIE earth complication,(Elephant in a room) I know little about the Leaf but people seem to like them in the Republic where there is still limited choice of EV.
As far as Zoe goes at 18 months into the project I am happy to have leased it,I may look at the BMW i3 next year, but can't see myself going back to petrol.
Hope this is of some help, if not a man will be along soon to correct me. Thanks.

I think it was a major mistake for Kia not to import the Soul EV in Ireland, I would have bought it. It's got the most range of any affordable EV at this time. It would have been nice if they even inform people it exists on the Kia Ireland website and have a "register your interest" option so they know if people show an interest.

The Soul EV is a very good EV that should be on Irish roads.

Benny_Cake

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah two Carlow charge points have been down for a few weeks also. In fact if you look at the charge point map there are a lot of AC points out of service, there must be a shortage of parts.

Ecars have a FB page people should go there and ask them what's the story, the more people that complain the better.

But if there is a standard charge point near your in-laws then you will get about 50% charge in 2 hours. You may have to pay for parking though, or you could get the granny cable and run an extension lead from a socket at the house ?

Ah, that explains all the purple spots on the ESB map. I think that the slightly faster charger would be of more use than the granny cable. Less chance of tripping people up But I can see how I get on.

Thanks again for all the advice folks!

Benny_Cake

So, I went and ordered a Leaf today. SV version with a 6.6kw charger as advised by others. It includes the cold pack which I didn't particularly want but I would have been waiting for months for one with the faster charger in black otherwise.

I think I've informed myself pretty thoroughly of the advantages and disadvantages of EV's in general and the Leaf in particular at this stage. I wanted the 6kw charger as it would make the SCP network more useful. I can imagine the Zoe drivers sniggering at that, but in the end I preferred the interior of the Leaf, along with not having to lease the battery. As I mentioned the dealer experience was radically different as well. No question that the Zoe is a fine car all the same.

It'll be my first brand new car and the first car I've had to take on some debt for so I had a few sleepless nights over that, but in the end I went for the 3 year PCP. It gives me the reassurance that if the car doesn't work out, I can trade it in a few years for an ICE, or hopefully, the next version of the Leaf. Overall, I'm really looking forward to getting it.

This forum has been a wealth of information so thanks all, no doubt I'll have more questions in the coming week.

Excellent Benny well done , you won't regret it !

Regarding the 6.6 Kw charger, you'll be glad you went for it for the sake of 25 Quid a month or so extra over 3 years.

I've used the 6.6 Kw charger at the slow charge points 3 times now and have got a decent charge in an hour.

The PCP also suited me as I can hop into the new model or any model ev with greater range when the time comes and the monthly payments are a lot lower than if I went for a bank loan or normal finance.

What mileage are you doing again ?

Benny_Cake

Deleted User wrote: »

Excellent Benny well done , you won't regret it !

Regarding the 6.6 Kw charger, you'll be glad you went for it for the sake of 25 Quid a month or so extra over 3 years.

I've used the 6.6 Kw charger at the slow charge points 3 times now and have got a decent charge in an hour.

The PCP also suited me as I can hop into the new model or any model ev with greater range when the time comes and the monthly payments are a lot lower than if I went for a bank loan or normal finance.

What mileage are you doing again ?

I set 20,000 km as my annual limit, although it's not a huge deal if I go over it slightly. PCP was the only affordable option for me.

It's definitely put my mind at rest to get the faster charger, even if it's just for a situation where a fast charger wasn't working and I needed a boost to get me to the next one.

Really can't wait to get this car!

I'll be close to the mileage limit by just driving to work 25,000 Kms per year so the Diesel will take over if we need to do the really long trips. The leaf will be doing the most mileage per year !

I enjoy every minute in the car, especially when I get the chance to have fun.

I got to work today with 58% battery , I usually get to work with 45% remaining. So less time on the fast charger today when I charge over lunch. it was a lot milder this morning when I got into work and I drove a bit slower when I released it was Saturday and there would be no traffic, I think it's Tuesday, shift work messes with your head !

Benny_Cake

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll be close to the mileage limit by just driving to work 25,000 Kms per year so the Diesel will take over if we need to do the really long trips. The leaf will be doing the most mileage per year !

I enjoy every minute in the car, especially when I get the chance to have fun.

I got to work today with 58% battery , I usually get to work with 45% remaining. So less time on the fast charger today when I charge over lunch. it was a lot milder this morning when I got into work and I drove a bit slower when I released it was Saturday and there would be no traffic, I think it's Tuesday, shift work messes with your head !

I'm lucky in that I'll only need to charge overnight for my commute, it's a straightforward 50km round trip. This will be our only car, my wife doesn't drive, so it may need to do the occasional longer trip. In fact we're going to Cork for the May bank holiday so that should be interesting!

I'll probably wait until the charger gets installed at home before picking up the car, although I'm not too far from the Naas Tesco fast charger and it seems to be dependable enough, even though it's a busy enough one.

feichin

Reading through this thread it seems we should all be changing to electric vehicles immediately.
Some questions if I may, for those that have already taken the plunge.
My current car is a 10 year old corrolla d4d with over 500,000 km on the clock, its going fine but the time for change is fast approaching.
My commute is 100km each way with anything up to 75km most days during the day. There is a fast charge point close to work and I pass a fast charge point at about the 60/40 point on my commute. There are also a couple of charge points in the nearest town.
1. Is this beyond the range of a leaf?
2. Is it possible to do the electric equivilant of a "splash and dash" - ie. on the way home could I pull into the fast charger for 10 /15 minutes to get me home?
3. I've read comments about the affect cold weather can have, how restricting is this, and what effect would this have over an Irish winter?
4. If you judge your distance wrong and run out of power by the side of the road, what are the options? (polite answers only please)
5. How dependable is the usage? ie. driving at between 80 /100 kph on national roads in relatively light traffic could I assume after a period of testing that I will use approx the same % of the battery each way on my commute?
Thanks for taking the time to read, and thanks in advance for any replies.

cros13

feichin wrote: »

My current car is a 10 year old corrolla d4d with over 500,000 km on the clock, its going fine but the time for change is fast approaching.

I had an Avensis D4D 2.0 before/while I had the Leaf (and now I'm on to my second EV with the i3). For a direct comparison, when I ran the numbers for the Leaf vs the Avensis. As cheap to run as diesel Toyotas are, for the same mileage the Leaf was literally 8 times cheaper (on night rate electricity).

feichin wrote: »

There is a fast charge point close to work and I pass a fast charge point at about the 60/40 point on my commute. There are also a couple of charge points in the nearest town.

Make sure that it's a rapid charger if you are going to be doing 200km a day.
Check the map: https://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/electric-car-charge-point-map.jsp

feichin wrote: »

1. Is this beyond the range of a leaf?

You'd be right on the line in the winter if you were doing 120km/h or so.
On ordinary national roads doing 80-100km/h you should have 25-50km of spare range depending on weather and how much of a lead foot you have. A good rule of thumb is to have enough range to make the next rapid charger in case your nearest is down for some reason.

feichin wrote: »

2. Is it possible to do the electric equivilant of a "splash and dash" - ie. on the way home could I pull into the fast charger for 10 /15 minutes to get me home?

Yup, pop in to the rapid for 15-20 minutes at lunch or on the way home and you should get from 0-80%. However if you need to go above 80% to reach home note that 80-100% would take another 20 minutes and regularly rapid charging above about 85-90% is not advisable (however if you are on a PCP or a lease I wouldn't worry too much).

feichin wrote: »

3. I've read comments about the affect cold weather can have, how restricting is this, and what effect would this have over an Irish winter?

Irish winters are very mild by comparison to somewhere like Canada. Worst I've seen on the Leaf is about 15% off the range in -5C weather, and that was mostly down to running the heater in the cabin. That's where the heated seats come in, they are one option you absolutely need (all four seats on high uses a 10th of the power vs the main heat pump). The i3 sees no noticeable drop because unlike the Leaf the battery has a thermal management system (heater pad and air cooling).

feichin wrote: »

4. If you judge your distance wrong and run out of power by the side of the road, what are the options? (polite answers only please)

Never happened to me. There are slow chargers everywhere if you get stuck the worst consequence is you may have to spend an hour at one to get home. Nissan also include free recovery anywhere in the EU to the nearest charger if you wish or to home.

I've hit turtle mode (low power output mode, battery below 2.5%) twice, once because three slow chargers in a row were down. The other time I was just 150 meters from home, and chancing it after a long trip .

feichin wrote: »

5. How dependable is the usage? ie. driving at between 80 /100 kph on national roads in relatively light traffic could I assume after a period of testing that I will use approx the same % of the battery each way on my commute?

You will use a fair bit more power at first as you get used to regen braking and managing the power usage of the car. After the first 2 or 3 weeks you'll have it down and usage will be very predictable.

My Dad has my Leaf now and he had most of his usage for his destinations mapped out in his head with the first 10 days. He went from using 80% of battery for his 100km round trip commute on Day 1 to 61% on Day 10.

First thing I did when I got the car was run the battery down to 6% and then circled the charger until I reached "Turtle" (took almost another hour at those low speeds, even running the heater full with the windows open!) to get comfortable with range and figure out power use at each speed.

feichin

feichin wrote: »

My commute is 100km each way with anything up to 75km most days during the day. There is a fast charge point close to work and I pass a fast charge point at about the 60/40 point on my commute. There are also a couple of charge points in the nearest town.
1. Is this beyond the range of a leaf?

Put it this way at 100 Kms you will need to be at a charger of some sort.

I could probably make 110 Kms at 100-110 Kph with calmer weather in Winter but the wind is the greatest killer to range.

You'll need the Leaf with the Heat pump, the SV or SVE trim.

Personally I think 100 kms (each way) is too close to the limit unless you want to restrict yourself to 80-100 Kph max. I would hang on for Gen II or the Opel Bolt in 2 -3 years there might be more models then too.

feichin wrote: »

2. Is it possible to do the electric equivilant of a "splash and dash" - ie. on the way home could I pull into the fast charger for 10 /15 minutes to get me home?

10 -15 mins in milder weather will give you about 30-35% back to the battery.

You don't want to be stopping on the way to and from work. I didn't get your location but if your route includes the Naas fast charger it's a terrible place to get to in peak traffic and the charge point is in the worst location possible, people plug in for free leccy a lot of them are locals who think it;s their personal charger and feck off for an hour or more. I don;t use it when I'm on day shift because it's a busy spot and it's a 50 50 chance I'll get stung waiting for someone. Coming off night shift there's not many about so I charge there but during the day I charge at newlands cross. A gentleman at newlands yesterday heading to Wicklow kindly let me charge, he said he had enough at about 55% to get him to where he was going. This is what it's all about. Use the charger for only what you need and move on.

feichin wrote: »

3. I've read comments about the affect cold weather can have, how restricting is this, and what effect would this have over an Irish winter?

Wind, it's a killer. More than cold or the heater, the heat pump consumes little leccy so it's not really an issue.

feichin wrote: »

4. If you judge your distance wrong and run out of power by the side of the road, what are the options? (polite answers only please)

Only option is to cal and wait for the recovery truck. Which will take you to nearest charge point. Maybe home ? don't know about that .

feichin wrote: »

5. How dependable is the usage? ie. driving at between 80 /100 kph on national roads in relatively light traffic could I assume after a period of testing that I will use approx the same % of the battery each way on my commute?
Thanks for taking the time to read, and thanks in advance for any replies.

When you figure out the worst case then yes it's pretty dependable.

At your long commute you'll without doubt, need to take a leaf for a few days, at the very least two.

My advice is wait for Leaf II or whatever is available with greater range in 2017.

If you take the car to it's limit twice daily and if you loose battery capacity then you will definitely be cutting it far too close for comfort.

You'll be cycling the battery twice daily, this is a lot. And probably deep cycling it also.

And one very important factor, if you get to the fast charger at say 10% you could be waiting 50 mins to get from 10-90%. I wouldn't do this daily. It's not worth your time and if a charger is down or you have to queue.

As highly as I regard the leaf and I really do think it's a brilliant car, I genuinely feel it's not the EV for you.

If Kia import the kia Soul EV then this would work for you it's got decent bit of extra range and the battery is heated in cold weather also.

Get on to Kia Ireland because they decided not to import it because they feel us Irish would only ever be interested in the 1.6 diesel which is BS, Kia Ireland and the dealers want nothing to do with Electric cars because they don't want to have to retool and retrain. Typical lazy attitude.

All they have to do is advertise the Soul EV on the site and have a "register your interest form" .

How are people to know about the soul EV if they won;t tell anyone about it ? Deliberately keeping people in ignorance that's what I say !

feichin

Thanks for the replies, that's what i needed to hear - even if it's not what I wanted to hear. My commute is Kerry / Cork, across the "Cork and Kerry Mountains" so wind would be a regular issue that to be honest I hadn't even thought about. I thought the issue was poorer battery performance in cold weather. Looking at the map there are chargers in most towns and around Cork city but I doubt they are as plentiful as Dublin / Kildare / Meath. so as you say Mad_Lad it's probably a step to far at the moment.

RedorDead

@Benny_Cake and Mad_Lad

You both should inform both Renault Ireland and Kia Ireland of your views. Its great sharing them here too but you would be surprised how quickly you get an answer by posting your experiences on Facebook. About how disinterested renault belgard were in selling you a Zoe Benny (and how you subsequently both a Leaf) and ask why Kia arent importing the Soul EV here Mad_Lad.

You would be surprised how interested brands are in your views.

zzantara

Going back to the original post ,which asked about PCP, be careful about what happens in three years.
PCP only works successfully when in three years you can repeat the process that you go through at the start of the agreement.
This means that you should have at the very least an equal deposit next time around, even though you are getting a guaranteed minimum future value there is no guarantee that your trade in price less the final payment will give you an equal deposit to your present one.
Others on this tread have helped you evaluate the pros and cons of Electric Vehicles, one thing is very certain and that is that this technology is advancing at a great pace, all the range issues that are now giving a lot of people doubts could really put them off Leaf's, if more acceptable Models are available at that time.
If you take the option of "just hand the. Car back" you are left with no equity/deposit for your next Car ,you either cough up a deposit again or live with higher repayments.
I have been in the sales end of the Motor Trade for over 40 years and there is no way that I would "put my B*lls on the line for the residual value of a Car in three years time that has doubts as to it's value today, it is virtually certain that the obvious problems will be overcome either by Nissan or their competitors.
Many Nissan Dealers have opted out of selling Leaf's today,that speaks volumes for their confidence in the product.

Another point regarding EV's, at the moment the running costs are very low compared to a Petrol equivalent, it is common knowledge that the Duty/VAT on Petrol is a major Revenue generator , if a large number of drivers convert to Electric it is very unlikely that it will not be taxed in some way to recover/make up for lost Revenue.
The common Motor Trade opinion is that the Multinational Manufacturers will
move towards Hydrogen and in the end it's they and not Governments that will dictate where this thing goes.

Benny_Cake

zzantara wrote: »

Going back to the original post ,which asked about PCP, be careful about what happens in three years.
PCP only works successfully when in three years you can repeat the process that you go through at the start of the agreement.
This means that you should have at the very least an equal deposit next time around, even though you are getting a guaranteed minimum future value there is no guarantee that your trade in price less the final payment will give you an equal deposit to your present one.
Others on this tread have helped you evaluate the pros and cons of Electric Vehicles, one thing is very certain and that is that this technology is advancing at a great pace, all the range issues that are now giving a lot of people doubts could really put them off Leaf's, if more acceptable Models are available at that time.
If you take the option of "just hand the. Car back" you are left with no equity/deposit for your next Car ,you either cough up a deposit again or live with higher repayments.
I have been in the sales end of the Motor Trade for over 40 years and there is no way that I would "put my B*lls on the line for the residual value of a Car in three years time that has doubts as to it's value today, it is virtually certain that the obvious problems will be overcome either by Nissan or their competitors.
Many Nissan Dealers have opted out of selling Leaf's today,that speaks volumes for their confidence in the product.

Another point regarding EV's, at the moment the running costs are very low compared to a Petrol equivalent, it is common knowledge that the Duty/VAT on Petrol is a major Revenue generator , if a large number of drivers convert to Electric it is very unlikely that it will not be taxed in some way to recover/make up for lost Revenue.
The common Motor Trade opinion is that the Multinational Manufacturers will
move towards Hydrogen and in the end it's they and not Governments that will dictate where this thing goes.

Agreed about PCP, I'll be putting aside some money every month for the duration, that will go towards a deposit on my next car. I've no idea where things will be at in 3 years. Worst comes to the worst I'd go back to a fuel efficient ICE, hope it doesn't come to that though.

Regarding hydrogen: from what I've read it's been the next big thing from decades at the stage. Fuel cells small enough to fit in cars are crazy expensive, from what I understand Toyota is making a big loss on every Mirai sold. Not to mention the huge cost of rolling out a refuelling infrastructure and the fact that producing hydrogen is fairly carbon intensive (currently). If these problems could be surmounted - great.

feichin

feichin wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, that's what i needed to hear - even if it's not what I wanted to hear. My commute is Kerry / Cork, across the "Cork and Kerry Mountains" so wind would be a regular issue that to be honest I hadn't even thought about. I thought the issue was poorer battery performance in cold weather. Looking at the map there are chargers in most towns and around Cork city but I doubt they are as plentiful as Dublin / Kildare / Meath. so as you say Mad_Lad it's probably a step to far at the moment.

I'm sorry, I couldn't recommend the Leaf to you, as good as it is I know it wouldn't suit you. But by 2017/18 you should not have any issues at all or if Kia import the Soul EV you'll be sorted. It's tested in the United states as having 100 miles @ 62 mph @ 20 deg C. That's the best of any affordable EV available today !

If you only travel on 80 Kph roads you could probably get away with it but hills are another range killer I forgot about. Yes you get regen on the way down hills/mountains but you'll use a lot more to get up.

The Leaf is so efficient that pretty much anything will effect range .

Detroit are promising 200 miles real range with the GM/Opel Bolt by 2017/18 but like the Ampera/Volt Opel Ireland might decide not to import it.

Nissan Ireland seem to be the only ones keen on selling an EV and I have to give a lot of credit to Paul in Barlow Nissan in Kilkenny, he was really sound and went well above his duty to sell me the leaf and he even drove to Carlow Town to give me the loaner Leaf which he didn't have to do at all on two occasions in the evening when he should have been at home. There should be more like him. I can guarantee I would not have got the same treatment from Windsor Belgard and as a result they did not get a sale from me.

cros13

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Regarding hydrogen: from what I've read it's been the next big thing from decades at the stage. Fuel cells small enough to fit in cars are crazy expensive, from what I understand Toyota is making a big loss on every Mirai sold. Not to mention the huge cost of rolling out a refuelling infrastructure and the fact that producing hydrogen is fairly carbon intensive (currently). If these problems could be surmounted - great.

As an engineer who has actually worked with hydrogen fuel cells, I can honestly say that personal transportation is about the last place a fuel cell would make sense. H2 is a bitch to work with, and there are massive safety issues. Sitting on a tank of compressed explosive gas that actively eats through seals and will make its way through air tight gaps or stress damage is not a good plan.

An in the end, what do you get? A fuel cell vehicle is just an inefficient EV that's expensive to build, expensive to run and builds in a number of difficult engineering problems with both the car and the astoundingly expensive infrastructure required to support it. It doesn't offer any range increase over BEVs, it takes all of 10-15 minutes quicker to charge (something that will be addressed by battery technology in the next 5 years anyway) and you can't charge at home without electrolysis (think €20,000 euro and pissing away 50% of the energy you could have charged a battery with).

I can see a very bright future for some fuel cell technologies like natural gas fuel cells for medium scale fixed power generation and MicroCHP systems for homes. I also wouldn't be surprised to see HGV's adopt combined BEV and fuel cell systems in 15 or 20 years time.

I'm sorry but with Lithium Ion cells falling in price so fast that we're at what were the predicted prices for 2020 today and with several new battery technologies already in commercial sampling I see no future for FCVs. In less than 5 years, Li cells will be below $70/kWh and 350-500km range EVs will be cheaper than the equivalent petrol vehicle without tax breaks or grant aid.

RedorDead

RedorDead wrote: »

@Benny_Cake and Mad_Lad

You both should inform both Renault Ireland and Kia Ireland of your views. Its great sharing them here too but you would be surprised how quickly you get an answer by posting your experiences on Facebook. About how disinterested renault belgard were in selling you a Zoe Benny (and how you subsequently both a Leaf) and ask why Kia arent importing the Soul EV here Mad_Lad.

You would be surprised how interested brands are in your views.

In fairness to Renault (Autoimage) Carlow Town, the salesman (sorry, can't remember his name) seemed pretty keen on selling the Zoe. It was a grand car but not to my taste. But It would be an incredible car to someone who is used to Renault , the electric power train is miles better than any ICE Renault would ever stick in a car of that size.

I did ask Kia Ireland and gave them an earfull on why they won't import the Soul EV to Ireland , their excuse was that they feel they need 100 orders minimum to make it worth while and they haven't got that amount and probably won't. And they felt Irish buyers wouldn't buy it over the crappy 1.6 tractor Diesel.

I did of course point out that due to the lack of advertisement, how are Irish people to be aware of the EV Soul to even consider to order it. I asked why wasn't it advertised on the Irish website with a "register your interest" like Nissan had for the leaf. I got no answer so I said if ye wanted to sell it in the first place ye would advertise it.