Rotherham victim says abusers are 'untouchable'

Henry9

porsche959 wrote: »

End of the Road, Nodin, myself and a few others have tried to suggest that the issue might be a little more complicated than a case of "political correctness gone mad!!" For this, we get labelled apologists for child rape at worst or at best people in the payroll of the fearsome all powerful liberal PC axis of Power.

Given that you seem to see things this black and white hyperbolic fashion, it's probably not surprising that you and the others you mentioned will argue around in circles, avoiding the quite obvious conclusions to be drawn from this case.

Nobody here has said political correctness was the sole cause, but only an imbecile could claim it had no part in it.

And given that it did play such a role, and given that no sane person would wish it to happen again, do you think deflecting the argument or nonsensically claiming 'it doesn't exist' actually helps?

Or is it just more of the same unthinking mindless bullsh1t that help contribute to the problem in the first place, and makes it more likely to happen again?

porsche959 wrote: »

Do you accept that if someone has a different view, it does not necessarily mean that they are trying to censor or oppress discussion?

This is gas. After page after page of accusations of Islamaphobia, and threats to have the thread censored, and telling people they're disgusting for 'abusing the girls again', now it's 'what accusations?', and 'what facts?', and 'we never said there wasn't a problem'.

LincolnsBeard

DeadHand wrote: »

Anyone expressing alarm at or simply mentioning the simple fact that the overwhelming bulk of this legion of child rapists are Muslim men of Asian ethnicity have variously been implied to be a racist, a knuckledragger and/or a bigot.

Now imagine you work for a council in England and somebody makes the same accusation against you. Are you going to risk your career and continue to highlight this issue or will you just slowly forget about it and keep your 40k a year job?

DeadHand

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

Now imagine you work for a council in England and somebody makes the same accusation against you. Are you going to risk your career and continue to highlight this issue or will you just slowly forget about it and keep your 40k a year job?

A fairly moot point and odd tangent there.

Since you ask I will say that justice, duty, empathy and compassion are immeasurably more precious to me than 40k a year.

A shame more in authority in England don't share those priorities.

LincolnsBeard

DeadHand wrote: »

A fairly moot point and odd tangent there.

Since you ask I will say that justice, duty, empathy and compassion are immeasurably more precious to me than 40k a year.

A shame more in authority in England don't share those priorities.

It's not an odd tangent, it's the reason why nobody wanted to deal with this issue. They didn't want to deal with the hassle through the inevitable accusations of racism that would come their way. Now these gangs are finally starting to get arrested we're saying the true extent of this type of grooming across England.

reprise

porsche959 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure no poster has denied that there is, or was, a problem in Rotherham and some surrounding areas.

End of the Road, Nodin, myself and a few others have tried to suggest that the issue might be a little more complicated than a case of "political correctness gone mad!!" For this, we get labelled apologists for child rape at worst or at best people in the payroll of the fearsome all powerful liberal PC axis of Power.

You are not all the same person?

OneEightSeven

reprise wrote: »

You are not all the same person?

No, they just have the collective I.Q. of one person.

DeadHand

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

It's not an odd tangent, it's the reason why nobody wanted to deal with this issue. They didn't want to deal with the hassle through the inevitable accusations of racism that would come their way. Now these gangs are finally starting to get arrested we're saying the true extent of this type of grooming across England.

Ok, I understand the point. It's a good point.

What I felt was odd was putting the question to me personally. I see now it was a rhetorical question not a direct query. My misunderstanding.

Frito

It's also possible they didn't want to deal with complaints, rather than complaints of racism per se.
There were two inquiries into nhs standards of care following failing at mid Staffs hospital. The lead was speaking to the media over a couple of days about the fate of whistle blowers. How they are intimidated, bullied, subject to sanctions etc.

I think we should bear in mind the unwillingness of some institutions to acknowledge or address failings.

DeadHand

Frito wrote: »

It's also possible they didn't want to deal with complaints, rather than complaints of racism per se.
There were two inquiries into nhs standards of care following failing at mid Staffs hospital. The lead was speaking to the media over a couple of days about the fate of whistle blowers. How they are intimidated, bullied, subject to sanctions etc.

I think we should bear in mind the unwillingness of some institutions to acknowledge or address failings.

Yes, again, I think everyone on the thread has long accepted that there were multiple factors at play in the inaction and cover up over the Rotherham disaster.

It's the massive religious, racial and cultural factors at play in the crimes as well as the poisonous, paralysing affect of political correctness on the authorities in question that posters here and the mainstream media in general (if they deal with this case at all) are intent on downplaying or even denying entirely.

Therefore, these are the factors it is most important to keep highlighting.

It's shocking how relatively obscure this story still is. It should be massive. It's a sad reflection on the state and direction of the UK in general and the British media in particular that certain mass, organised outrages are deemed unfit for dissemination if the perpetrators and victims happen to be the wrong type of person.

If it doesn't fit with the prevailing "Muslim=Victim" narrative.

Frito

DeadHand wrote: »

Yes, again, I think everyone on the thread has long accepted that there were multiple factors at play in the inaction and cover up over the Rotherham disaster.

It's the massive religious, racial and cultural factors at play in the crimes as well as the poisonous, paralysing affect of political correctness on the authorities in question that posters here and the mainstream media in general (if they deal with this case at all) are intent on downplaying or even denying entirely.

Therefore, these are the factors it is most important to keep highlighting.

It's shocking how relatively obscure this story still is. It should be massive. It's a sad reflection on the state and direction of the UK in general and the British media in particular that certain mass, organised outrages are deemed unfit for dissemination if the perpetrators and victims happen to be the wrong type of person.

If it doesn't fit with the prevailing "Muslim=Victim" narrative.

I was speculating the pc/racism angle was a convenient deterrent by authorities who had no intention of acknowledging the CSE be the abusers Pakistani, English, lesbian whatever.

I'm puzzled. What media inaction do you mean? The majority of links posted here are from British papers, plenty of articles at the BBC site and a Panorama investigation late last year. I remember having a similar conversation with my driving instructor in 2013 (about Rochdale).
This has been commented on.

RobYourBuilder

It was my birthday today. I went for a meal with my current partner. We got talking about Rotherham. 'If you ignored this, then I would not be with you.'

'Pint?'

DeadHand

Frito wrote: »

I was speculating the pc/racism angle was a convenient deterrent by authorities who had no intention of acknowledging the CSE be the abusers Pakistani, English, lesbian whatever.

I'm puzzled. What media inaction do you mean? The majority of links posted here are from British papers, plenty of articles at the BBC site and a Panorama investigation late last year. I remember having a similar conversation with my driving instructor in 2013 (about Rochdale).
This has been commented on.

Detraction, deflection, reduction.

The independent review found the pc/racism angle was a genuine, central factor in the initial inaction over the crimes and their subsequent cover up not a "convenient deterrent".

It's been covered. But sparsely. It hasn't received the international or, even, national prominence that continuing organised, racially and religiously motivated mass rape and torture of children on a scale of this magnitude should receive. I speculate this is because the victims have a lowly standing in the most of the media's hierarchy of victims while the perpetrators enjoy a high standing.

Often, when reported, great efforts are gone to not to mention the ethnicity of the child rapists and downplay the looming cultural/religious motivations involved.

A conversation with a driving instructor (hope you passed) is no more indication or proof of fair media handling of this story than an earlier poster's quaint story of a weekend in Inverness was indication that the UK is not suffering from the affects of mass, untrammeled immigration from misogynistic and intolerant cultures.

Frito

DeadHand wrote: »

Detraction, deflection, reduction.

The independent review found the pc/racism angle was a genuine, central factor in the initial inaction over the crimes and their subsequent cover up not a "convenient deterrent".

It's been covered. But sparsely. It hasn't received the international or, even, national prominence that continuing organised, racially and religiously motivated mass rape and torture of children on a scale of this magnitude should receive. I speculate this is because the victims have a lowly standing in the most of the media's hierarchy of victims while the perpetrators enjoy a high standing.

Often, when reported, great efforts are gone to not to mention the ethnicity of the child rapists and downplay the looming cultural/religious motivations involved.

A conversation with a driving instructor (hope you passed) is no more indication or proof of fair media handling of this story than an earlier poster's quaint story of a weekend in Inverness was indication that the UK is not suffering from the affects of mass, untrammeled immigration from misogynistic and intolerant cultures.

I think the accusations of racism were a very real concern for frontline staff, and I suspect this was manipulated by those in authority who had interests in addition to political correctness to protect. So deflection...yes.
The fact that the grooming gangs were of Pakistani heritage is important to acknowledge.
It's not really covered in the news reports or in this thread but some victims were of the same ethnic group as the perpetrators (see the section on ethnicity in Jay's report). Bearing this in mind I find the outrage of Pakistani gangs raping white girls to border on hysteria.
I did pass, thanks! It was to illustrate this discussion is perhaps late-to-the-party, I recall a lot of media interest at the time.

reprise

Frito wrote: »

I think the accusations of racism were a very real concern for frontline staff, and I suspect this was manipulated by those in authority who had interests in addition to political correctness to protect. So deflection...yes.
The fact that the grooming gangs were of Pakistani heritage is important to acknowledge.
It's not really covered in the news reports or in this thread but some victims were of the same ethnic group as the perpetrators (see the section on ethnicity in Jay's report). Bearing this in mind I find the outrage of Pakistani gangs raping white girls to border on hysteria.
I did pass, thanks! It was to illustrate this discussion is perhaps late-to-the-party, I recall a lot of media interest at the time.

How many?

I mean this is mass rape across ethnic lines and you want to fanny about and split hairs, so how many?

O, to save time, I will be looking to know if any from the same ethnic background were guilty of any anti-Islamic acts that may have "justified" the acts.

Frito

reprise wrote: »

How many?

I mean this is mass rape across ethnic lines and you want to fanny about and split hairs, so how many?

O, to save time, I will be looking to know if any from the same ethnic background were guilty of any anti-Islamic acts that may have "justified" the acts.

The report is there for you to read.
It's not a competition about who was abused the most, really, it's not.

DeadHand

Frito wrote: »

The report is there for you to read.
It's not a competition about who was abused the most, really, it's not.

Of course it's not but you must admit it's relevance.

If, for instance, black girls were being groomed, tortured and raped by white Christian men in Alabama or anywhere else on this huge scale, these crimes covered up by the local authorities, these perpetrators protected by the local authorities and these crimes going largely ignored by the media at this rate would you be downplaying the clear racial, cultural and religious motivations involved? Would you be rationalising it and putting forward incompetence, bullying and self preservation as equal or greater factors?

I highly doubt it.

(congrats on passing your driving test, took me several (2) attempts)

reprise

Frito wrote: »

The report is there for you to read.

You made the claim - you provide the numbers and we'll take it from there.

Frito wrote: »

It's not a competition about who was abused the most, really, it's not.

Who said it was?

Frito

DeadHand wrote: »

Of course it's not but you must admit it's relevance.

If, for instance, black girls were being groomed, tortured and raped by white Christian men in Alabama or anywhere else on this huge scale, these crimes covered up by the local authorities, these perpetrators protected by the local authorities and these crimes going largely ignored by the media at this rate would you be downplaying the clear racial, cultural and religious motivations involved? Would you be rationalising it and putting forward incompetence, bullying and self preservation as equal or greater factors?

I highly doubt it.

(congrats on passing your driving test, took me several (2) attempts)

The thing is I don't believe I'm downplaying or rationalising the racial and cultural angles, I'm confident I'm taking a moderate position. It is important to acknowledge these race/ethnicity issues, especially to prevent future occurrences - to make the communities more involved in addressing the actions of some of their members, to understand how and why it happens, and where their culture is enabling this behaviour. And how we then respond - obviously to intervene and hold the perpetrators to account rather than a conversation on how and why immigration failed!

I wouldn't want people to focus on the race angle so much they lose sight of the big picture. Like wanting to know exactly how many Pakistani girls were abused when it's enough that they were abused.

This was a sex crime, not a race crime.
It was enabled by many factors including race, ethnicity and misguided political correctness. Personally I believe the perception of the victims by the authorities was an equal if not greater factor in what happened.
Whatever the reasons, people turned a blind eye. That is intolerable.
Had the perpetrators been white, I suspect there would have been the same level of denial. The victims just weren't considered victims. So it didn't matter what happened to them or who did it.

I'm not sure what you need further in terms of a public discussion of the race/ethnicity issue. Do you not feel heartened that because of Rotherham there is now a culture of investigating?

(I had to do the hazard perception test twice)

Frito

reprise wrote: »

You made the claim - you provide the numbers and we'll take it from there.



Who said it was?

Here you are. I didn't even know about the abuse of the Pakistani girls until I started to read through.
You're looking for numbers. I'm assuming you want to compare the stats between the victim demographics, to see who fares worse perhaps? (we already know the victims were predominantly white) I don't think the report has that information; the section on ethnicity mentions the need to include women of Pakistani heritage in the discussion, they felt they had been marginalised and had similar stories of their own daughters being collected in taxis and subject to abuse; that they felt they were being overlooked.

http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham

DeadHand

Frito wrote: »

(I had to do the hazard perception test twice)

(I managed to seduce the instructor)

nokia69

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2960178/Pakistani-born-restaurant-owner-groomed-girls-young-12-McDonald-s-cash-tobacco-flowers-raped-friends.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

A restaurant owner groomed girls as young as 12 with McDonald's meals, cash, tobacco and flowers so they could be raped by him and his friends, the Old Bailey heard today.
Pakistani-born Mohammed Khubaib, 43, who owns Peterborough restaurant Zaika, is accused of driving the vulnerable girls to properties around Cambridgeshire where they were plied with alcohol.

nokia69

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11443868/300-victims-groomed-and-assaulted-by-Oxfordshire-gangs-report-finds.html

A damning report is expected to disclose that more than 300 young people have been groomed and sexually exploited by gangs in Oxfordshire over the past 15 years.

The victims, mostly girls, come predominantly from Oxford, making it the latest area in Britain to be embroiled in a scandal over the handling of child sex abuse and proving the issue is not confined to inner cities.
One senior investigative source told The Guardian: “If you think you haven’t got a problem in your city or town, you are just not looking for it.”

jank

A drip feed of news, a bit like the RCC issues of abuse. Perhaps there should be a national investigation in this?

obplayer

jank wrote: »

A drip feed of news, a bit like the RCC issues of abuse. Perhaps there should be a national investigation in this?

Of course there should. Whether there will be or not is another question.

DeadHand

jank wrote: »

A drip feed of news, a bit like the RCC issues of abuse. Perhaps there should be a national investigation in this?

Don't hold your breath.

It's England.

The authorities would rather see children raped than upset the Muslim community.

Now, had there been this many, widespread cases of indigenous English gangs targeting preying on predominately Muslim girls official England would immediately and rightly move heaven and earth to stop it and it would (rightly) be a massive news story.

Oh, and we'd see violent rioting from the Muslim community at least.

As it is, official England is only moving against this clear problem now having turned a willful blind eye to this for years and the problem is still a relatively obscure story in the media.

No violent rioting but, of course, anyone highlighting this huge crime, pointing out the clear patterns of the ethnicity/religion of the perpetrators and victims or having the temerity to march in protest against the rape of their children is automatically branded a racist, bigot or xenophobe.

We are smugly told by (apparently telepathic) commentators that none of them really care about the children.

By which logic it could also be claimed that those who criticised the Catholic Church for the long running, organised rape and torture of children by so many within that institution and it's cover up didn't really care about the victims but were simply anti-Catholic bigots using the outrages to push an anti-religious agenda.

Meanwhile, working class girls are getting raped by Muslim gangs while the media either ignores the issue or, bizarrely, savages those who speak out about it and the English authorities wring their hands and wonder how to go about stopping this mass rape without offending precious Muslim sensibilities.

Sensibilities so precious that they for years trumped a working class, white child's right to protection from rape and, apparently, still do.

end of the road

DeadHand wrote: »

anyone highlighting this huge crime, pointing out the clear patterns of the ethnicity/religion of the perpetrators and victims or having the temerity to march in protest against the rape of their children is automatically branded a racist, bigot or xenophobe.

no, only those that are, are branded as such. a number of those marching were marching against muslims and those of foreign descent or foreigners in general

DeadHand wrote: »

We are smugly told by (apparently telepathic) commentators that none of them really care about the children.

we aren't. the fact is, a number of people don't care about the children and are using them to further their clearly racist agenda

DeadHand wrote: »

By which logic it could also be claimed that those who criticised the Catholic Church for the long running, organised rape and torture of children by so many within that institution and it's cover up didn't really care about the victims but were simply anti-Catholic bigots using the outrages to push an anti-religious agenda.

i've no doubt some people were of that mindset and were using the abuse of children by the catholic church to push an agenda

DeadHand wrote: »

Meanwhile, working class girls are getting raped by Muslim gangs while the media either ignores the issue or, bizarrely, savages those who speak out about it and the English authorities wring their hands and wonder how to go about stopping this mass rape without offending precious Muslim sensibilities.

nonsense. only those who have an agenda are savaged. if the authorities can cary out their investigations sensitively but to the point then they should be commended

nokia69

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-33656802

When she was 12 or 13, one of the girls - known as A - was passed between 60 Asian men for sex and had been conditioned to think it was normal behaviour, the jury was told.

emo72

another case? i thought rotherham was a once off sadly.

ceadaoin.

The 3 brothers who were the ringleaders of this abuse ring were jailed today.

The court heard that police officers had sex with the girls and supplied the rapists with drugs. This gang were able to abuse girls outside the police station and the police turned a blind to it. I hope a full enquiry into the police force is conducted and they are held responsible. Sadly, if history is anything to go by, it will be swept under the carpet .

These poor girls were let down in every way. The people who should have protected them instead protected their abusers. The scary thing is, this is happening all over the UK, even in Rotherham still allegedly.

Colborne said Bannaras, known locally as Bono, had taken the girl, who was 12 or 13, to a car park near Rotherham police station. He made the girl perform a sexual act on him in the front of the car while her sister sat in the back.

“When shortly afterwards, a police car pulled up alongside them and asked what they were doing, Bannaras shouted: ‘She’s just sucking my cock, mate.’ The police car drove off,” Colborne said.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/26/three-brothers-jailed-over-rotherham-child-sexual-abuse

https://rotherhampolitics.wordpress.com/2016/02/25/police-conspired-to-protect-rotherham-child-sex-abusers/

viztopia

I see the government in uk are on about stripping the rapists of their UK citizenship. Hope they follow through on this but can't see them doing it