Is Ireland's middle class disappearing?

delthedriver

Morgan Kelly warns of new middle-class debt default!

What impact could this have on economic growth ?

PizzamanIRL

No!

*raises hand*

kneemos

If they default on their debts they'll probably have loads of money to spend.Happy days.

What have I missed here?

The Backwards Man

Middle class?

You mean the ones that made a fortune out of doing fcuk all this last twenty years?

Fcuk 'em

There's only two types of people in the world that are decent. People with money, and people that work for money

wretcheddomain

Conspiracy forum -->

kneemos

The lower class will bail them out again with dole cuts.

Sheep Lover

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Middle class?

You mean the ones that made a fortune out of doing fcuk all this last twenty years?

Fcuk 'em

There's only two types of people in the world that are decent. People with money, and people that work for money

Good on ya, a whole broad spectrum of people are basically the same bone idle, feckless so and sos but also made a bit of cash doing so, apparently

Into The Blue

Middle class? No such thing in a republic. We're all working class.

The Backwards Man

Sheep Lover wrote: »

Good on ya, a whole broad spectrum of people are basically the same bone idle, feckless so and sos but also made a bit of cash doing so, apparently

I'm not one for broad generalisations, but yeah, cnuts the lot of them:pac:

Lenin Skynard

There is no middle class in Ireland, never was.

Desolation Of Smug

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

There is no middle class in Ireland, never was.

Right. That's that so. I thought there was. Darndale, Dundrum, Dalkey. Which one isn't "middle" class?

kneemos

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

There is no middle class in Ireland, never was.

Middle income earners are considered middle class.Always have been.

ireland.man

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

There is no middle class in Ireland, never was.

If there was no middle-class we would never have had the Blueshirts.

jimgoose

He's talking about "high-rolling professionals" mainly. That'll make sod-all difference to the economy, those fcukers wouldn't spend Christmas. Unless it's €70,000,000 for a block of flats in Ranelagh.

Potatoeman

kneemos wrote: »

The lower class will bail them out again with dole cuts.

I dont think people that dont work and get free money can overly complain about the people that work and pay taxes. Dole payments increased during the good times but were unsustainable with high unemployment.

jimgoose

Potatoeman wrote: »

I dont think people that dont work and get free money can overly complain about the people that work and pay taxes. Dole payments increased during the good times but were unsustainable with high unemployment.

And so goes the rather peculiar situation in Ireland where anyone with a job is considered by some to be "middle class". Economy my hole! :pac:

anncoates

We need a Vox Pop and head count outside Donnybrook Fair and Fallon and Byrne to confirm these allegations.

realdanbreen

Into The Blue wrote: »

Middle class? No such thing in a republic. We're all working class.

What about the people who don't work, have never worked, and don't intend to work, are they working class?

The Corinthian

An Irish academic best known for correctly calling the property crash four years ago has raised fresh concerns over a potential tsunami of debt default from "high rolling" professional classes.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/aug/08/ireland-debt-crisis

Yeah... I suspect this may be a bit of a dated story.

kneemos wrote: »

If they default on their debts they'll probably have loads of money to spend.Happy days.

Glad to see that the sense of social responsibility in Ireland hasn't changed in Ireland in my absence.

jimgoose

The Corinthian wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/aug/08/ireland-debt-crisis

Yeah... I suspect this may be a bit of a dated story.

We're finally catching up with the Brits, though - the upper classes here also have loads of land and no money.

The Corinthian

jimgoose wrote: »

We're finally catching up with the Brits, though - the upper classes here also have loads of land and no money.

Irish upper classes... always makes me laugh. There's no real 'upper' class in Ireland; what there was of that largely skipped the country shortly after independence, leaving a handful of CoI holdouts who end up marrying their own cousins so as to remain religiously homogeneous.

Instead there's a nouveau riche - with the same lineage as everyone else, two or three generations away from a potato farm - but who had a cute hoor for an ancestor in the last century and a Jesuit education. As far as 'upper class' is concerned, from an international perspective, it's less embarrassing to just call them upper middle class.

conorhal

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Middle class?

You mean the ones that made a fortune out of doing fcuk all this last twenty years?

Fcuk 'em

There's only two types of people in the world that are decent. People with money, and people that work for money

Where the living hell do you imagine middle class people get their money, do you imagine our butlers go out back and shake a magic money tree or something?

jimgoose

conorhal wrote: »

Where the living hell do you imagine middle class people get their money, do you imagine our butlers go out back and shake a magic money tree or something?

Hyeeass. You mean you don't actually have a money-tree? Like OMG how Rothfornhom!! :eek:

Electric Sheep

realdanbreen wrote: »

What about the people who don't work, have never worked, and don't intend to work, are they working class?

No, they are the "Entitled" class.

ireland.man

conorhal wrote: »

Where the living hell do you imagine middle class people get their money, do you imagine our butlers go out back and shake a magic money tree or something?

Class and wealth is very often inherited in Ireland. Like it or not, the dimmest members of the middle-classes will have more advantages in life than the cleverest children from economically deprived areas.

The Corinthian

ireland.man wrote: »

Class and wealth is very often inherited in Ireland. Like it or not, the dimmest members of the middle-classes will have more advantages in life than the cleverest children from economically deprived areas.

Not really that simple.

To begin with, middle class is a wide term in Ireland. Someone who grew up in Ailesbury road, in a Georgian house is middle class. So is someone who grew up in Artane in a semi-D. Then inherited wealth may give an advantage, but this advantage pales in comparison to nepotism in Ireland, which often is independent of wealth and more closely connected to the Irish culture of cronyism.

Another factor is sub-culture; reverse snobbery is such in some quarters that it can act as a disincentive for many to go into higher education as any kind of academic snobbery acts to encourage others to to do so. Ireland is the only country where I've ever heard the expression "did you swallow a dictionary" as some form of insult.

So I'd classify inherited wealth less important than many other factors where it comes to 'advantage' in Ireland.

valoren

An almost 4 year old article?

Srsly?

Lovely Bloke

Disappearing - nope, just yesterday I upgraded my car from an Astra to an Avensis, got a raise in the last six months and planning on a couple of foreign holidays this year.

Mortgage is grand, and should be paid off in ten years or so

ireland.man

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not really that simple.

To begin with, middle class is a wide term in Ireland. Someone who grew up in Ailesbury road, in a Georgian house is middle class. So is someone who grew up in Artane in a semi-D. Then inherited wealth may give an advantage, but this advantage pales in comparison to nepotism in Ireland, which often is independent of wealth and more closely connected to the Irish culture of cronyism.

Another factor is sub-culture; reverse snobbery is such in some quarters that it can act as a disincentive for many to go into higher education as any kind of academic snobbery acts to encourage others to to do so. Ireland is the only country where I've ever heard the expression "did you swallow a dictionary" as some form of insult.

So I'd classify inherited wealth less important than many other factors where it comes to 'advantage' in Ireland.

I was being a bit reductionist so yeah, I'd agree with your sentiments. I think people need to be a little more self-aware regarding their income, lifestyle and class. We need to recognise all the factors that play into people being on the dole long-term, those working multiple jobs to support their family, and those who most would consider wealthy. It might make people more empathetic if they knew that it takes far more than talent and hard work to join the upper middle class in this country.

Chemical Byrne

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Middle class?

You mean the ones that made a fortune out of doing fcuk all this last twenty years?

Fcuk 'em

There's only two types of people in the world that are decent. People with money, and people that work for money

What a crock of it!

The middle class bend over backwards working their bollocks off to pay though the nose for everything, education, housing the whole lot, and get ZERO assistance from the state. They are the ones who really have lost the most over the last 7 years.

In actual fact it is the "working" classes who've come out with little to no loss. Can't/won't work, no bother! Dole, housing, fags, cheap beer, outings to the bookies etc all in limitless lifetime supply courtesy of the the taxes paid through the noses of the middle class.

ireland.man

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

What a crock of it!

The middle class bend over backwards working their bollocks off to pay though the nose for everything, education, housing the whole lot, and get ZERO assistance from the state. They are the ones who really have lost the most over the last 7 years.

In actual fact it is the "working" classes who've come out with little to no loss. Can't/won't work, no bother! Dole, housing, fags, cheap beer, outings to the bookies etc all in limitless lifetime supply courtesy of the the taxes paid through the noses of the middle class.

Who would you class as working class?

The Backwards Man

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

What a crock of it!

The middle class bend over backwards working their bollocks off to pay though the nose for everything, education, housing the whole lot, and get ZERO assistance from the state. They are the ones who really have lost the most over the last 7 years.

In actual fact it is the "working" classes who've come out with little to no loss. Can't/won't work, no bother! Dole, housing, fags, cheap beer, outings to the bookies etc all in limitless lifetime supply courtesy of the the taxes paid through the noses of the middle class.

I think you and I have different understandings of the term middle class in an Irish context.

The Corinthian

ireland.man wrote: »

It might make people more empathetic if they knew that it takes far more than talent and hard work to join the upper middle class in this country.

Again, I think it's not so simple. Again, 'middle class' is a wide category in Ireland and it may be harder for someone who is the son/daughter of a factory worker to enter the middle classes than the son/daughter of a lower level civil servant, but that does not mean that there is no social mobility - it just means that there may be a limit to how mobile people can be, on average, in one generation.

Single generational social mobility is still a pretty modern concept, people tend to forget.

Additionally, I've know plenty who have gone from working to upper middle class on the basis of talent and hard work and even seen the reverse. Where people fail to do so is, from what I've both seen and been told, is that Ireland has a ridiculousness level of begrudgery against those who wish to better themselves - there are those who are effectively ostracized by their former childhood friends the moment they enter college.

RickyOFlaherty

By printing money (as the ECB proposes), you devalue a currency .. meaning those people who already have money are going to see their asset values inflate and people with no money are going to have less spending power because the money is worth less.

Coupled with taxpayers bailing out the rich, I would imagine that it stands to reason that you are going to have more middle class people heading towards the poor category.

I'm sure there are holes in this ... but if I had any money I would be putting some of it in some place where it is not going to lose value for the next while.

Chemical Byrne

The Corinthian wrote: »

Irish upper classes... always makes me laugh. There's no real 'upper' class in Ireland; what there was of that largely skipped the country shortly after independence, leaving a handful of CoI holdouts who end up marrying their own cousins so as to remain religiously homogeneous.

Instead there's a nouveau riche - with the same lineage as everyone else, two or three generations away from a potato farm - but who had a cute hoor for an ancestor in the last century and a Jesuit education. As far as 'upper class' is concerned, from an international perspective, it's less embarrassing to just call them upper middle class.

There still are plenty of the "traditional" upper class here. There are a good few gentry peers here but most of them keep a low enough profile though. Senior clergy, bishops etc, would also be considered upper class in the traditional sense.

Obviously exiting the UK changed the way we look at the term Upper Class here in the RoI but I think we can identify an new type of upper class here post independence - high ranking members of political dynasties for example might be considered upper class nowadays. Also perhaps prestigious families such as the Magniers and the O'Briens in the horse racing sphere. Most of those people have inherited their power, wealth and influence to some degree and I think they are in a different league to the "Upper Middle" class, also called the capitalist class, of self made men like Dennis O'Brien, Bill Cullen, Sean Quinn etc.

ireland.man

The Corinthian wrote: »

Again, I think it's not so simple. Again, 'middle class' is a wide category in Ireland and it may be harder for someone who is the son/daughter of a factory worker to enter the middle classes than the son/daughter of a lower level civil servant, but that does not mean that there is no social mobility - it just means that there may be a limit to how mobile people can be, on average, in one generation.

Single generational social mobility is still a pretty modern concept, people tend to forget.

Additionally, I've know plenty who have gone from working to upper middle class on the basis of talent and hard work and even seen the reverse. Where people fail to do so is, from what I've both seen and been told, is that Ireland has a ridiculousness level of begrudgery against those who wish to better themselves - there are those who are effectively ostracized by their former childhood friends the moment they enter college.

My point is not that it's impossible for any social mobility but that generally poorer children must work harder, and be more talented than their wealthier counterparts growing up in more affluent areas to achieve an equal level of success. Throw in direct discrimination, nepotism and cronyism which benefits those with more power in society, and you have a very unequal playing field.

About our culture of failure and tall poppy syndrome.. I went to university and I'm from one of the most disadvantaged areas of Ireland so I know how defensive many can be when they think someone is 'doing better' than them. Reading a book on the bus was enough to set some thugs off - they would take genuine personal offence at the sight of someone being quiet and reading! But in reality it wasn't people in housing estates keeping talented working class kids out of good jobs but the system itself, a whole range of external factors.

Grayson

ireland.man wrote: »

Who would you class as working class?

Most people are now at some level of middle class. The days of upper, middle and working are really gone at this point.
Nowadays people identify working class, not with a profession but rather with how much they earn. This means service sector workers and the unemployed are now the new "working class" Pretty much anyone on minimum wage or less.

Into The Blue

realdanbreen wrote: »

What about the people who don't work, have never worked, and don't intend to work, are they working class?

Yeah, we're all at some point on the same spectrum. If a dole lifer got a **** job after 30 years on the scratcher, he's working class. I went to college, then served an apprenticeship, now have my own company, doing well, still just working class.

The Corinthian

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

There still are plenty of the "traditional" upper class here. There are a good few gentry peers here but most of them keep a low enough profile though.

There's a few and I did mention them.

Obviously exiting the UK changed the way we look at the term Upper Class here in the RoI but I think we can identify an new type of upper class here post independence - high ranking members of political dynasties for example might be considered upper class nowadays.

Don't confuse what we identify as 'upper class' with actually being 'upper class'. Compared to the 'upper class' of most European nations, 'ours' is pretty laughable.

Also perhaps prestigious families such as the Magniers and the O'Briens in the horse racing sphere.

Can they say what their families were up to in the 1200's? If not, they're still just nouveau riche.

But I suppose we can call them 'upper class', just as we call the Wicklow mountains 'mountains'.

bear1

So... this thread is about something related to 2011. And people are getting annoyed at it?

joe swanson

I consider myself middle class........
Because I work. Years ago I would gave been working class.

The term working class has these days been hijacked by those who don't actually work!

Pretty ironic

Chemical Byrne

Grayson wrote: »

Most people are now at some level of middle class. The days of upper, middle and working are really gone at this point.
Nowadays people identify working class, not with a profession but rather with how much they earn. This means service sector workers and the unemployed are now the new "working class" Pretty much anyone on minimum wage or less.

That's actually quite wrong. Class is about much more than how money you earn of have. Its is only a part of the picture. Remember that Delores McNamara one that won the Euromillions a few years ago? Did all that money suddenly maker her Upper Middle class? The hell it did! She's still a wooorkur but just she lives in a big house with loads of money.

Any reliable measure of class should take the following into account:

-inherited class status (what class were your parents)
-type of occupation
-education
-cultural interests
-outlook on life
-income

Chemical Byrne

joe swanson wrote: »

I consider myself middle class........
Because I work. Years ago I would gave been working class.

The term working class has these days been hijacked by those who don't actually work!

Pretty ironic

It's not that simple. You work yes but what what type of work, how educated are you, what is your general outlook on life, cultural interests, income?

If you work as an architect, solicitor or are successfully self employed then yes, you may well me middle class but if you are a manual worker or an operative in a factory or something then you are working class. Being paid a wage or a salary is gives a good indication as does whether your work is intellectual or physical in nature. But again this is only one aspect of defining class.

The lifetime dolers are Welfare or Underclass

I notice a lot of people have an overly simplistic view on social class and tend to define it by one parameter only, be it how much they make or if working/non working.

I once heard an girl who was training to be an accountant say she was working and therefore working class. Now maybe her family was working class but she was obviously well educated and working towards a career in an intellectual field of work. That would make her very much middle class in that parameter anyway.

Also if your occupation is considered a career vs a job might also give an indication.

Lyaiera

**** class.

Chemical Byrne

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

That's actually quite wrong. Class is about much more than how money you earn of have. Its is only a part of the picture. Remember that Delores McNamara one that won the Euromillions a few years ago? Did all that money suddenly maker her Upper Middle class? The hell it did! She's still a wooorkur but just she lives in a big house with loads of money.

Any reliable measure of class should take the following into account:

-inherited class status (what class were your parents)
-type of occupation
-education
-cultural interests
-outlook on life
-income

What is outlook in life?

Andy-Pandy

I would have grown up as upper middle class. Father was a high ranking british army officer, grew up in d4, went to a private school and have a "posh" accent. It really means nothing as an adult. I was still made unemployed in 2010 and still had to struggle as an independent adult to fix MY OWN situation. If being from an upper middle class background (I hate these terms) has given me any advantage it is a hard work ethic and an unwillingness to rely on others (I will admit I spent a short time on jobseekers allowance but over 15 years of contributions through tax and prsi i was entitled to it)

Chemical Byrne

mariaalice wrote: »

What is outlook in life?

I guess what you see your purpose in life is. Lets look at tow extremes
-Anto thinks waiting for dole day and then getting wasted on cheap cider and hash with his mates is what life is all about. Litte interest in furthering himself or contributing to society.

-B dreams of going to Trinity and wants to make something worthwhile with his life and contribute to society.

Which class is either one more likely to belong to?

Bear in mind that this is just one indicator of class we are looking at. Anto from Drimnagh may well wish to be a barrister and solve world hunger. Tarquin from Dalkey might be a hopless cocaine addict and alcoholic. What I'm saying is you need to consider all of the above parameters, not just one in isolation as that tells you nothing really.

Chemical Byrne

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

I would have grown up as upper middle class. Father was a high ranking british army officer, grew up in d4, went to a private school and have a "posh" accent. It really means nothing as an adult. I was still made unemployed in 2010 and still had to struggle as an independent adult to fix MY OWN situation. If being from an upper middle class background (I hate these terms) has given me any advantage it is a hard work ethic and an unwillingness to rely on others (I will admit I spent a short time on jobseekers allowance but over 15 years of contributions through tax and prsi i was entitled to it)

And you will likely always be upper middle class. You lost your income yes, that is one thing, but you still have all the other things that would mean you are UMC.

The Backwards Man

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I guess what you see your purpose in life is. Lets look at tow extremes
-Anto thinks waiting for dole day and then getting wasted on cheap cider and hash with his mates is what life is all about. Litte interest in furthering himself or contributing to society.

-B dreams of going to Trinity and wants to make something worthwhile with his life and contribute to society.

Which class is either one more likely to belong to?

Bear in mind that this is just one indicator of class we are looking at. Anto from Drimnagh may well wish to be a barrister and solve world hunger. Tarquin from Dalkey might be a hopless cocaine addict and alcoholic. What I'm saying is you need to consider all of the above parameters, not just one in isolation as that tells you nothing really.

IMO all those people belong to the one class

Knobheads

Chemical Byrne

The Corinthian wrote: »

There's a few and I did mention them.

Don't confuse what we identify as 'upper class' with actually being 'upper class'. Compared to the 'upper class' of most European nations, 'ours' is pretty laughable.

Can they say what their families were up to in the 1200's? If not, they're still just nouveau riche.

But I suppose we can call them 'upper class', just as we call the Wicklow mountains 'mountains'.

I see your point, but my point is that since we no longer have peers being created in ireland we have readjust the criteria for upper class to suit the social reality of todays ireland. To say that there is a Lower and Middle class but no upper class would be silly in my view.

Chemical Byrne

The Backwards Man wrote: »

IMO all those people belong to the one class

Knobheads

Yes, well as I said, they are two extremes I chose just to demonstrate the point.

And what's your point? Your post doesn't contribute anything to the discussion, just like your first one didn't.