Is Ireland's middle class disappearing?

The Backwards Man · 29-01-2015 10:46AM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

What a crock of it!

The middle class bend over backwards working their bollocks off to pay though the nose for everything, education, housing the whole lot, and get ZERO assistance from the state. They are the ones who really have lost the most over the last 7 years.

In actual fact it is the "working" classes who've come out with little to no loss. Can't/won't work, no bother! Dole, housing, fags, cheap beer, outings to the bookies etc all in limitless lifetime supply courtesy of the the taxes paid through the noses of the middle class.

I think you and I have different understandings of the term middle class in an Irish context.

The Corinthian · 29-01-2015 10:48AM

ireland.man wrote: »

It might make people more empathetic if they knew that it takes far more than talent and hard work to join the upper middle class in this country.

Again, I think it's not so simple. Again, 'middle class' is a wide category in Ireland and it may be harder for someone who is the son/daughter of a factory worker to enter the middle classes than the son/daughter of a lower level civil servant, but that does not mean that there is no social mobility - it just means that there may be a limit to how mobile people can be, on average, in one generation.

Single generational social mobility is still a pretty modern concept, people tend to forget.

Additionally, I've know plenty who have gone from working to upper middle class on the basis of talent and hard work and even seen the reverse. Where people fail to do so is, from what I've both seen and been told, is that Ireland has a ridiculousness level of begrudgery against those who wish to better themselves - there are those who are effectively ostracized by their former childhood friends the moment they enter college.

RickyOFlaherty · 29-01-2015 10:52AM

By printing money (as the ECB proposes), you devalue a currency .. meaning those people who already have money are going to see their asset values inflate and people with no money are going to have less spending power because the money is worth less.

Coupled with taxpayers bailing out the rich, I would imagine that it stands to reason that you are going to have more middle class people heading towards the poor category.

I'm sure there are holes in this ... but if I had any money I would be putting some of it in some place where it is not going to lose value for the next while.

Chemical Byrne · 29-01-2015 10:56AM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Irish upper classes... always makes me laugh. There's no real 'upper' class in Ireland; what there was of that largely skipped the country shortly after independence, leaving a handful of CoI holdouts who end up marrying their own cousins so as to remain religiously homogeneous.

Instead there's a nouveau riche - with the same lineage as everyone else, two or three generations away from a potato farm - but who had a cute hoor for an ancestor in the last century and a Jesuit education. As far as 'upper class' is concerned, from an international perspective, it's less embarrassing to just call them upper middle class.

There still are plenty of the "traditional" upper class here. There are a good few gentry peers here but most of them keep a low enough profile though. Senior clergy, bishops etc, would also be considered upper class in the traditional sense.

Obviously exiting the UK changed the way we look at the term Upper Class here in the RoI but I think we can identify an new type of upper class here post independence - high ranking members of political dynasties for example might be considered upper class nowadays. Also perhaps prestigious families such as the Magniers and the O'Briens in the horse racing sphere. Most of those people have inherited their power, wealth and influence to some degree and I think they are in a different league to the "Upper Middle" class, also called the capitalist class, of self made men like Dennis O'Brien, Bill Cullen, Sean Quinn etc.

ireland.man · 29-01-2015 10:58AM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Again, I think it's not so simple. Again, 'middle class' is a wide category in Ireland and it may be harder for someone who is the son/daughter of a factory worker to enter the middle classes than the son/daughter of a lower level civil servant, but that does not mean that there is no social mobility - it just means that there may be a limit to how mobile people can be, on average, in one generation.

Single generational social mobility is still a pretty modern concept, people tend to forget.

Additionally, I've know plenty who have gone from working to upper middle class on the basis of talent and hard work and even seen the reverse. Where people fail to do so is, from what I've both seen and been told, is that Ireland has a ridiculousness level of begrudgery against those who wish to better themselves - there are those who are effectively ostracized by their former childhood friends the moment they enter college.

My point is not that it's impossible for any social mobility but that generally poorer children must work harder, and be more talented than their wealthier counterparts growing up in more affluent areas to achieve an equal level of success. Throw in direct discrimination, nepotism and cronyism which benefits those with more power in society, and you have a very unequal playing field.

About our culture of failure and tall poppy syndrome.. I went to university and I'm from one of the most disadvantaged areas of Ireland so I know how defensive many can be when they think someone is 'doing better' than them. Reading a book on the bus was enough to set some thugs off - they would take genuine personal offence at the sight of someone being quiet and reading! But in reality it wasn't people in housing estates keeping talented working class kids out of good jobs but the system itself, a whole range of external factors.

Grayson · 29-01-2015 11:08AM

ireland.man wrote: »

Who would you class as working class?

Most people are now at some level of middle class. The days of upper, middle and working are really gone at this point.
Nowadays people identify working class, not with a profession but rather with how much they earn. This means service sector workers and the unemployed are now the new "working class" Pretty much anyone on minimum wage or less.

Into The Blue · 29-01-2015 11:11AM

realdanbreen wrote: »

What about the people who don't work, have never worked, and don't intend to work, are they working class?

Yeah, we're all at some point on the same spectrum. If a dole lifer got a **** job after 30 years on the scratcher, he's working class. I went to college, then served an apprenticeship, now have my own company, doing well, still just working class.

The Corinthian · 29-01-2015 11:16AM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

There still are plenty of the "traditional" upper class here. There are a good few gentry peers here but most of them keep a low enough profile though.

There's a few and I did mention them.

Obviously exiting the UK changed the way we look at the term Upper Class here in the RoI but I think we can identify an new type of upper class here post independence - high ranking members of political dynasties for example might be considered upper class nowadays.

Don't confuse what we identify as 'upper class' with actually being 'upper class'. Compared to the 'upper class' of most European nations, 'ours' is pretty laughable.

Also perhaps prestigious families such as the Magniers and the O'Briens in the horse racing sphere.

Can they say what their families were up to in the 1200's? If not, they're still just nouveau riche.

But I suppose we can call them 'upper class', just as we call the Wicklow mountains 'mountains'.

bear1 · 29-01-2015 11:16AM

So... this thread is about something related to 2011. And people are getting annoyed at it?

joe swanson · 29-01-2015 11:20AM

I consider myself middle class........
Because I work. Years ago I would gave been working class.

The term working class has these days been hijacked by those who don't actually work!

Pretty ironic

Chemical Byrne · 29-01-2015 11:26AM

Grayson wrote: »

Most people are now at some level of middle class. The days of upper, middle and working are really gone at this point.
Nowadays people identify working class, not with a profession but rather with how much they earn. This means service sector workers and the unemployed are now the new "working class" Pretty much anyone on minimum wage or less.

That's actually quite wrong. Class is about much more than how money you earn of have. Its is only a part of the picture. Remember that Delores McNamara one that won the Euromillions a few years ago? Did all that money suddenly maker her Upper Middle class? The hell it did! She's still a wooorkur but just she lives in a big house with loads of money.

Any reliable measure of class should take the following into account:

-inherited class status (what class were your parents)
-type of occupation
-education
-cultural interests
-outlook on life
-income

Chemical Byrne · 29-01-2015 11:30AM

joe swanson wrote: »

I consider myself middle class........
Because I work. Years ago I would gave been working class.

The term working class has these days been hijacked by those who don't actually work!

Pretty ironic

It's not that simple. You work yes but what what type of work, how educated are you, what is your general outlook on life, cultural interests, income?

If you work as an architect, solicitor or are successfully self employed then yes, you may well me middle class but if you are a manual worker or an operative in a factory or something then you are working class. Being paid a wage or a salary is gives a good indication as does whether your work is intellectual or physical in nature. But again this is only one aspect of defining class.

The lifetime dolers are Welfare or Underclass

I notice a lot of people have an overly simplistic view on social class and tend to define it by one parameter only, be it how much they make or if working/non working.

I once heard an girl who was training to be an accountant say she was working and therefore working class. Now maybe her family was working class but she was obviously well educated and working towards a career in an intellectual field of work. That would make her very much middle class in that parameter anyway.

Also if your occupation is considered a career vs a job might also give an indication.

Lyaiera · 29-01-2015 11:33AM

**** class.

29-01-2015 11:35AM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

That's actually quite wrong. Class is about much more than how money you earn of have. Its is only a part of the picture. Remember that Delores McNamara one that won the Euromillions a few years ago? Did all that money suddenly maker her Upper Middle class? The hell it did! She's still a wooorkur but just she lives in a big house with loads of money.

Any reliable measure of class should take the following into account:

-inherited class status (what class were your parents)
-type of occupation
-education
-cultural interests
-outlook on life
-income

What is outlook in life?

Andy-Pandy · 29-01-2015 11:40AM

I would have grown up as upper middle class. Father was a high ranking british army officer, grew up in d4, went to a private school and have a "posh" accent. It really means nothing as an adult. I was still made unemployed in 2010 and still had to struggle as an independent adult to fix MY OWN situation. If being from an upper middle class background (I hate these terms) has given me any advantage it is a hard work ethic and an unwillingness to rely on others (I will admit I spent a short time on jobseekers allowance but over 15 years of contributions through tax and prsi i was entitled to it)

Chemical Byrne · 29-01-2015 11:58AM

mariaalice wrote: »

What is outlook in life?

I guess what you see your purpose in life is. Lets look at tow extremes
-Anto thinks waiting for dole day and then getting wasted on cheap cider and hash with his mates is what life is all about. Litte interest in furthering himself or contributing to society.

-B dreams of going to Trinity and wants to make something worthwhile with his life and contribute to society.

Which class is either one more likely to belong to?

Bear in mind that this is just one indicator of class we are looking at. Anto from Drimnagh may well wish to be a barrister and solve world hunger. Tarquin from Dalkey might be a hopless cocaine addict and alcoholic. What I'm saying is you need to consider all of the above parameters, not just one in isolation as that tells you nothing really.

Chemical Byrne · 29-01-2015 12:00PM

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

I would have grown up as upper middle class. Father was a high ranking british army officer, grew up in d4, went to a private school and have a "posh" accent. It really means nothing as an adult. I was still made unemployed in 2010 and still had to struggle as an independent adult to fix MY OWN situation. If being from an upper middle class background (I hate these terms) has given me any advantage it is a hard work ethic and an unwillingness to rely on others (I will admit I spent a short time on jobseekers allowance but over 15 years of contributions through tax and prsi i was entitled to it)

And you will likely always be upper middle class. You lost your income yes, that is one thing, but you still have all the other things that would mean you are UMC.

The Backwards Man · 29-01-2015 12:01PM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I guess what you see your purpose in life is. Lets look at tow extremes
-Anto thinks waiting for dole day and then getting wasted on cheap cider and hash with his mates is what life is all about. Litte interest in furthering himself or contributing to society.

-B dreams of going to Trinity and wants to make something worthwhile with his life and contribute to society.

Which class is either one more likely to belong to?

Bear in mind that this is just one indicator of class we are looking at. Anto from Drimnagh may well wish to be a barrister and solve world hunger. Tarquin from Dalkey might be a hopless cocaine addict and alcoholic. What I'm saying is you need to consider all of the above parameters, not just one in isolation as that tells you nothing really.

IMO all those people belong to the one class

Knobheads

Chemical Byrne · 29-01-2015 12:03PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

There's a few and I did mention them.

Don't confuse what we identify as 'upper class' with actually being 'upper class'. Compared to the 'upper class' of most European nations, 'ours' is pretty laughable.

Can they say what their families were up to in the 1200's? If not, they're still just nouveau riche.

But I suppose we can call them 'upper class', just as we call the Wicklow mountains 'mountains'.

I see your point, but my point is that since we no longer have peers being created in ireland we have readjust the criteria for upper class to suit the social reality of todays ireland. To say that there is a Lower and Middle class but no upper class would be silly in my view.

Chemical Byrne · 29-01-2015 12:07PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

IMO all those people belong to the one class

Knobheads

Yes, well as I said, they are two extremes I chose just to demonstrate the point.

And what's your point? Your post doesn't contribute anything to the discussion, just like your first one didn't.

The Backwards Man · 29-01-2015 12:16PM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Yes, well as I said, they are two extremes I chose just to demonstrate the point.

And what's your point? Your post doesn't contribute anything to the discussion, just like your first one didn't.

Discussion?

There is no discussion. Different people have differing perceptions of a social structure that essentially doesn't exist in this country. There is no class system here, much to the chagrin of many, I have no doubt.

Larbre34 · 29-01-2015 12:19PM

Any Mod, the statement used in the OP refers to a statement made almost 4 years ago, can we put a lid on this?

Chemical Byrne · 29-01-2015 12:44PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Discussion?

There is no discussion. Different people have differing perceptions of a social structure that essentially doesn't exist in this country. There is no class system here, much to the chagrin of many, I have no doubt.

To say there is no class structure in this country is ridiculous. While correct, there is no official structure to say there this is a classless society is plain wrong. To do so would be to suggest that a high power barrister from Killiney is on the same social footing as some scrote ball from from a council estate in Ballymun. That clearly is not the case in reality. There are classes whether we like it or not.

conorhal · 29-01-2015 12:48PM

The reality is that the middle class is slowly declining all over the West.

The 1970's marked the epoch of economic equality with the smallest gap in history between the wealth and the rest of us. In real terms your bank manager, wall st. broker etc didn't earn massive multiples of the average industrial wage. This gap however has been growing ever since, the rich have gotten a lot richer and in real terms the middle class incomes have steeply declined over the last 40yrs.
This decline has been masked to a certian extent by a variety of factors, unlike the 70's most households are dual income, have fewer children and wait longer before having them, all giving the appearence of people having more when in fact the are doing more with less and working a lot longer and harder for what they get.
The other major difference is debit. Household debt has exploded since the 1970's and a lot of the stuff we've accumulated, we have done so on credit, which has made those at the top even richer as our debt is comodified and traded.
Then you have the ever increecing burden of taxation that falls primarilly on the middle classes and that squeeze continues.

29-01-2015 12:50PM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

To say there is no class structure in this country is ridiculous. While correct, there is no official structure to say there this is a classless society is plain wrong. To do so would be to suggest that a high power barrister from Killiney is on the same social footing as some scrote ball from from a council estate in Ballymun. That clearly is not the case in reality. There are classes whether we like it or not.

They are citizens of Ireland though

The Backwards Man · 29-01-2015 12:54PM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

To say there is no class structure in this country is ridiculous. While correct, there is no official structure to say there this is a classless society is plain wrong. To do so would be to suggest that a high power barrister from Killiney is on the same social footing as some scrote ball from from a council estate in Ballymun. That clearly is not the case in reality. There are classes whether we like it or not.

I'm a bogger from a long line of boggers. What highway, avenue or back passage is open to that barrister that isn't open to me?

steddyeddy · 29-01-2015 01:29PM

ireland.man wrote: »

Class and wealth is very often inherited in Ireland. Like it or not, the dimmest members of the middle-classes will have more advantages in life than the cleverest children from economically deprived areas.

This. I demonstrate labs to a lot of them unfortunately. There are considerable amounts of the sheltered dim here.

The Corinthian · 29-01-2015 01:56PM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I see your point, but my point is that since we no longer have peers being created in ireland we have readjust the criteria for upper class to suit the social reality of todays ireland. To say that there is a Lower and Middle class but no upper class would be silly in my view.

Relitively speaking, you are completely correct. Upper, middle and lower (the pre-'working' term) are relative terms, after all. It is simply that, as I opened in my first post, it makes me laugh when I hear the term in connection to the RoI.

And, as you pointed out to Andy-Pandy, class and money are not the same thing, which was what was originally suggested.

jimgoose · 29-01-2015 02:40PM

I trust this explains everything nicely:

j80ezgvc3p92xu · 29-01-2015 11:42PM

Traditionally, the notion of middle class was defined not so much by money as by education. The middle class was taxed under a separate schedule in the common law system and the tax definition included (from what I remember) doctors, lawyers, teachers, army officers, university lecturers and priests. I still prefer to use this definition as it actually means something - that the middle class has special knowledge and overall superior education which is highly valued in society. That way an electrician earning 100,000 a year is still working class where he (objectively) belongs.

Is Ireland's middle class disappearing?

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