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Almost 500 cases of female genital mutilation identified in just one month in England

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    #182
    Venus In Furs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Venus In Furs


    Attempting to prevent child abuse = "forcing our western values on others".

    Ah students... bless.


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    #183
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    spikeS wrote: »
    We need to be open minded and accept others for who they are

    No we danm well don't!
    If people are behaving in a way that is simply barbaric and it is in your power to stop it then you do. Should we allow Saudi women to be stoned to death for adultery here because that is Saudi culture? They are here and while they are they can follow our laws. If they don't want to dink then fine, but if they want to mutilate children then not acceptable.


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    #184
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    spikeS wrote: »
    We need to be open minded and accept others for who they are

    Have a read of this;
    A groundbreaking new report by UNICEF finds that, while much progress has been made in abandoning female genital mutilation/cutting, millions of girls are still at risk – and sets out key steps needed to eliminate the practice for once, and for all.

    NEW YORK, United States of America, 22 July 2013 – “I don’t want any part of my body to be cut. I don’t want to be circumcised,” says 10-year old Kheiriya Abidi from Boorama town, North-West Somalia.

    Kheiriya is terrified of the blood, the pain and physical torture she will have to suffer if her genitals are cut.

    The pressure on her to be cut is mounting every day, and she is often ridiculed and insulted by her friends for being ‘different’. Female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C) is rooted deep in Somali culture; the practice is nearly universal. Girls and women are made to have their external genitalia removed fully or partially– some when they are just infants, others when they hit puberty – in the name of preserving female honour, chastity, beauty, ensuring their marriageability.

    But Kheiriya refuses to be one of them. She is standing strong in the face of criticism with support from her family and community health workers who are part of a larger movement to eliminate FGM/C.

    Increasing opposition

    A groundbreaking new report by UNICEF shows that more girls like Kheiriya, as well as women and men, are saying no to FGM/C than ever before, and more communities than ever are abandoning the centuries-old tradition.

    In Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting: A statistical overview and exploration of the dynamics of change, UNICEF compiles and analyses data from 74 nationally representative surveys that were conducted over a 20-year period in 29 countries across Africa and the Middle East in which FGM/C is practised. 

    “This report is the most comprehensive compilation of statistics and data analysis on FGM/C to date,” says UNICEF Statistics and Monitoring Specialist Claudia Cappa. “It’s extremely important because it illustrates, for the first time, what we know about how widespread is the practice is, the attitudes surrounding the practice and the reasons why this practice is continued. It’s also the first report that includes data for countries like Iraq for which we didn’t have national figures.”

    The findings of the report point to a sharp decline in FGM/C in numerous countries in which it is practised. Prevalence has dropped by as much as almost half among adolescent girls in Benin, the Central African Republic, Iraq, Liberia and Nigeria. “In most of the countries surveyed, majority of girls and women who have undergone the practice do not see benefits to it and think that the practice should stop,” says Ms. Cappa. “More mothers are aware that FGM/C can lead to their daughter’s, or a girl’s, death. So, there is a better understanding of the consequences, which, in itself, is very important progress.”


    Full article here - http://www.unicef.org/protection/57929_69881.html

    Still adamant that we should accept FGM?


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    #185
    Wurzelbert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    Have a read of this;



    Full article here - http://www.unicef.org/protection/57929_69881.html

    [...]

    at least there seems to be a decline in many countries already, a good start...and then what’s next? will unicef turn its attention to the more extreme forms of male circumcision? or is it after all just another “feel good” pastime for some “intact” western ladies to worry about the poor little girls in far-away lands? same as adopting snow leopards and all the rest? one can only hope people in fgm countries really get it and manage to change this one aspect of their cultures once and for all...


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    #186
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Just out of curiosity, is there any medical reason for FGM?
    With men, I know two different medical reasons. One was a kid who needed a circumcision due to something going wrong (I can't recall exactly what) and another man who needed the procedure after a pretty nasty tear. Both of these were made with a doctors opinion and done in a hospital through anesthetic so obviously doesn't compare to certain cultural procedures.
    I've never heard of a medical reason for FGM.


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    #187
    Wurzelbert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    sup_dude wrote: »
    [...]
    I've never heard of a medical reason for FGM.

    because there is none.


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    #188
    shalalala
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭shalalala


    Wurzelbert wrote: »
    because there is none.

    From what I can remember the main purpose of it is to take all sexual pleasure away from the woman because if she cannot enjoy sex, then why would she cheat or have sex before marriage? It is, in their mind to keep a woman pure while tightening everything to heighten pleasure for men.

    It started off being men in societies doing this and now it is the women in families kidnapping the girls to get this mutilation carried out because of course they are afraid that no one would want to marry the girl or god forbid would enjoy sex outside of a marriage.

    It is some seriously twisted logic and causes many health problems depending on the level of fgm carried out.


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    #189
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    sup_dude wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, is there any medical reason for FGM?
    It's used for the treatment of clitoral phimosis and vulvar cancer.


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    #190
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,017 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    The clitoris is cut out as a cure for clitoral phimosis?? Get up the yard! :roll:

    (And how many cases of clitoral phimosis are there, like, ever? I know several boys or men in my own family who have had various degrees of phimosis as a boy, most not requiring surgery. I don't know of a single girl who has had any form of phimosis that she or her mother were aware of. It may exist, but I suspect it is a genital malformation. Does the existence of surgery for undescended testicles (again, infinitely more common than clitoral phimosis) mean we can open young boys' testes for some non medical reason?)

    Same as for cancer - mastectomy as validation for forcibly removing young girls' breasts?


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    #191
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    volchitsa wrote: »
    The clitoris is cut out as a cure for clitoral phimosis?? Get up the yard! :roll:

    (And how many cases of clitoral phimosis are there, like, ever? I know several boys or men in my own family who have had various degrees of phimosis as a boy, most not requiring surgery. I don't know of a single girl who has had any form of phimosis that she or her mother were aware of. It may exist, but I suspect it is a genital malformation. Does the existence of surgery for undescended testicles (again, infinitely more common than clitoral phimosis) mean we can open young boys' testes for some non medical reason?)

    Same as for cancer - mastectomy as validation for forcibly removing young girls' breasts?
    Both womens and mens genitals are modified for both medical and non-medical reasons.
    It's a fact that you need to learn to accept.
    Your strawman arguments above do nothing to disprove this.


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    #192
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Both womens and mens genitals are modified for both medical and non-medical reasons.
    It's a fact that you need to learn to accept.
    Your strawman arguments above do nothing to disprove this.

    Yes we do actually already understand this thank you. What we are discussing is the morality of these procedures.


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    #193
    qt3.14
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭qt3.14


    sup_dude wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, is there any medical reason for FGM?
    With men, I know two different medical reasons. One was a kid who needed a circumcision due to something going wrong (I can't recall exactly what) and another man who needed the procedure after a pretty nasty tear. Both of these were made with a doctors opinion and done in a hospital through anesthetic so obviously doesn't compare to certain cultural procedures.
    I've never heard of a medical reason for FGM.
    Wurzelbert wrote: »
    because there is none.

    Read back up a few pages. Two different studies found it reduces the rate of HIV contraction by a statistically signifigant amount.
    Doesn't mean we should be doing it.


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    #194
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    qt3.14 wrote: »
    Read back up a few pages. Two different studies found it reduces the rate of HIV contraction by a statistically signifigant amount.
    Doesn't mean we should be doing it.

    Hiv is a huge problem in Africa where is done


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    #195
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    spikeS wrote: »
    Hiv is a huge problem in Africa where is done

    What the thread is about is actually FGM in England. Read the first post please. As for Africa I suspect that if the woman can't have sex or avoids it because she has been mutilated that might reduce her HIV risk.


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    #196
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,074 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    obplayer wrote: »
    As for Africa I suspect that if the woman can't have sex or avoids it because she has been mutilated that might reduce her HIV risk.
    Actually the HIV reduction was studied in prostitutes. Those that were "circumcised"/mutilated had a lower rate of infection(and at a higher level than seen in men who were "circumcised"/mutilated). Still not an excuse or reason for the practice.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #197
    JaseBelleVie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 936 ✭✭✭JaseBelleVie


    Will peeling all of my skin off my body reduce my risk of skin cancer? Because I might go for it!

    Also, ripping my eyeballs out of my head will mean I'll never go short-sighted.

    Tearing my toenails out means I'll never get an ingrown toenail.

    Having my lungs removed means I'll never get lung cancer.

    Et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum.

    Preventative medicine is fine in most cases. But not when it involves cutting out pieces of children's bodies! Or even adults' bodies.

    F*ck that.


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    #198
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    obplayer wrote: »
    Yes we do actually already understand this thank you.
    People have claimed the opposite, so this isn't as understood as you think.


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    #199
    Wurzelbert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    qt3.14 wrote: »
    Read back up a few pages. Two different studies found it reduces the rate of HIV contraction by a statistically signifigant amount.
    Doesn't mean we should be doing it.

    in science there is a study for everything, and much depends on how, by whom and for what purpose a study is done...there are studies that link the spread of aids to fgm...like these guys or that article...and the who (probably the most authoritative source here) would negate any positive effects of fgm as well...


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    #200
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,216 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    shalalala wrote: »
    From what I can remember the main purpose of it is to take all sexual pleasure away from the woman because if she cannot enjoy sex, then why would she cheat or have sex before marriage? It is, in their mind to keep a woman pure while tightening everything to heighten pleasure for men.

    It started off being men in societies doing this and now it is the women in families kidnapping the girls to get this mutilation carried out because of course they are afraid that no one would want to marry the girl or god forbid would enjoy sex outside of a marriage.

    It is some seriously twisted logic and causes many health problems depending on the level of fgm carried out.

    I dont agree with it but if she was found to be sexually active or have a child the family would have to support her. So its more case of god forbid she becomes a burden on the family. You have to see this from their cultural perspective no matter how much you dont like it.


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    #201
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    It's not Muslim culture it's a regional culture, and cultural relativism can f*ck right off when it comes to child abuse, particularly when it causes insane number of complications later in life for the girls up to and including death


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    #202
    shalalala
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭shalalala


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    I dont agree with it but if she was found to be sexually active or have a child the family would have to support her. So its more case of god forbid she becomes a burden on the family. You have to see this from their cultural perspective no matter how much you dont like it.

    If a woman was to get pregnant outside of marriage then in all likelihood she would be disowned by a family so I really don't get where you are coming from. Disownment is fairly common in many cultures that carry out this. So no matter how I look at fgm, it cannot be rationalised.


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    #203
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    She gets disowned by the family for incontinence after childbirth as a result of fgm too! There's no good reasoning for it, it's all "this is to get them a husband" (per an article by a fellow in the irish times who said this of his own daughters) and "because we've always done it"


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    #204
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,216 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    shalalala wrote: »
    If a woman was to get pregnant outside of marriage then in all likelihood she would be disowned by a family so I really don't get where you are coming from. Disownment is fairly common in many cultures that carry out this. So no matter how I look at fgm, it cannot be rationalised.

    It would still reflect on the family though. I dont agree with it and you would need to get an answer from someone that preforms it for real insight into motives but criticism from western cultures seems steeped in its own mindset.

    As I said earlier its easier to argue across cultures on grounds of ethics as they are universal.


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    #205
    qt3.14
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭qt3.14


    Wurzelbert wrote: »
    in science there is a study for everything, and much depends on how, by whom and for what purpose a study is done...there are studies that link the spread of aids to fgm...like these guys or that article...and the who (probably the most authoritative source here) would negate any positive effects of fgm as well...
    That's kind of my point. We shouldn't be chopping bits off kids pretty much full stop. Todays words of wisdom turns out to be tomorrows shame.

    Edit: Specifically in the case of HIV transmission, for both mgm and fgm afair it's linked to the reduction of bodily fluid generated by the respective organ. Guess what cheap, non-surgical method is available to reduce the exchange of bodily fluids during intercourse? Of course, condoms. HIV reduction by chopping the bits off boys or girls (one of which the WHO heartily endorses) sort of ignores the non-surgical options.


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