How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

suicide_circus

Shrap wrote: »

True, but have you ever tried telling a lad in their late teens that they can't defend themselves against what's being said about them?

Gotta go out and bring youngest to hosp now to get a permanent cast on yesterday's broken foot. Time to go run the gauntlet of the insults against him and his kind of child at every second traffic light......

He'll survive, might even make him stronger

freshpopcorn

There's a tweet attached about 16 YES posters being removed from areas around Dublin.
Elections/referendums are always messy with one side taking down the others posters. I even think I saw a joke in a Pat Short film about the local politician taking down posters.(Would have being in the early 2000s). When I was in college some people used just bring them home for the laugh!
The NO side also put up NO posters illegaly in Mallow(for tidy town reasons)

barneystinson

Shrap wrote: »

It'd be hard to hold back a young one who is being so insulted by the likes of those posters. I'm not sure you realise how hurtful they are. My eldest wanted to know yesterday "did they not realise that a child (like himself) could have a great relationship with both parents, even if they're not together and not married?". Most of his friends are from non-traditional families, two of them from gay parents, and ALL of his friends are feeling highly insulted from on high (the posters) for the first time in their lives.

It was hard to persuade him that it would be counter-productive to take them down as tbh, I'm so sick of these fundamentalists coming out and saying whatever the fcuk they like about me and my friends, if I was his age I'd be looking for the nearest ladder myself.

So I'm looking at the list of "crimes" against free speech so far and coming up with:
a) Shutting down an extremist hate speech website for a day by posting a message in opposition to their extreme views.
b) Taking down posters that are saying something extremely insulting on a very personal level to a very great number of people, especially young people.

Y'know, it's a fecking joke in this country that posters full of lies and slurs like this can go up in the first place. This fundie w*nkfest of Iona's and Opus Dei types has pissed off enough people now that the "youth" are all taking it personally now. This is not just a referendum about gay marriage any more as far as they're concerned (from what I hear) - this is mobilising and encouraging an AntiFa response to an extreme right poster campaign.

So, special pleading then...

Pherekydes

S.O wrote: »

I can,t recall people taking it upon themselves to take down posters in other referendums or elections.

You've got to be sh1tting me?

It happens every single time.

Personally, while I don't agree with taking down posters, it'd be a far better place without any posters whatsoever.

Ave Sodalis

What worries me most, and I said it from the beginning, is the young people who are just starting to realise they're gay and are coming to terms with it. It's will be very difficult to come to terms with something when you're surrounded by the No side and being that age is vulnerable enough as it is. I know of at least one young person who has committed suicide because of either hateful bullying or parents who couldn't accept it. I can't imagine how the No campaign is affecting people. Some people, in particular the campaigners, don't realise they're dealing with people just like them, and don't realise the effect of their posters. Okay, the older people who are more comfortable in themselves might merely be offended but that doesn't mean it's going to affect those who haven't quite come to terms with it.

folamh

sup_dude wrote: »

What worries me most, and I said it from the beginning, is the young people who are just starting to realise they're gay and are coming to terms with it. It's will be very difficult to come to terms with something when you're surrounded by the No side and being that age is vulnerable enough as it is. I know of at least one young person who has committed suicide because of either hateful bullying or parents who couldn't accept it. I can't imagine how the No campaign is affecting people. Some people, in particular the campaigners, don't realise they're dealing with people just like them, and don't realise the effect of their posters. Okay, the older people who are more comfortable in themselves might merely be offended but that doesn't mean it's going to affect those who haven't quite come to terms with it.

On the flipside, the Yes campaign are trying to create an environment of compassion and acceptance. So it's more that young people have to come to terms with their sexuality in s tumultuous, polarizing political climate. People probably are on average more accepting of homosexuality than they were 10 years ago, but I'm not sure if it would be easier finding yourself today or back then.

Bannasidhe

suicide_circus wrote: »

He'll survive, might even make him stronger

Hang on... are you saying that the upset caused to young people by posters telling them that their particular families are less than 'ideal' is ultimately good for them?
A form of tough love? :eek:

Wow. That is some 'protecting the children' spin there...

One eyed Jack

folamh wrote: »

On the flipside, the Yes campaign are trying to create an environment of compassion and acceptance. So it's more that young people have to come to terms with their sexuality in s tumultuous, polarizing political climate. People probably are on average more accepting of homosexuality than they were 10 years ago, but I'm not sure if it would be easier finding yourself today or back then.

I think it's probably more accurate to say people nowadays actually don't care about whether someone is LGBT as they did 10 years ago, and if you went back 20 years ago, people were very conscious of who was or wasn't LGBT (Lydia Foy just as one example, has been fighting what, 23 years to be recognised as a citizen of this country).

It's like anything really - people don't care as long as they're not faced with the problem, and when they are, that's the only time they'll begin to care. This is the attitude that's problematic for the Yes campaign because they have to try and make people care enough to support them, and for years what you call acceptance, was just indifference.

I think it will always be difficult for anyone to come to terms with being made to feel different, as opposed to people who want to be different (looking at you Paddy Manning, and plenty other people like him!).

I don't like the fact that people are being used as political fodder, but any decision that will have the effect on society that this referendum will have, is always going to bring out the crazy in some people, and the best we can do is just support people who are experiencing difficulty with being subjected to a tug-o-war, because it's not going to get any easier for them in the run up to this referendum, and I think it's important to remind people having difficulty with the level of abuse they're taking for who they are, that this referendum campaign is temporary, it's a political campaign on both sides, and they won't have to deal with this level of exposure in the long term.

PopePalpatine

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Hang on... are you saying that the upset caused to young people by posters telling them that their particular families are less than 'ideal' is ultimately good for them?
A form of tough love? :eek:

Wow. That is some 'protecting the children' spin there...

Shure de children don't matter if there QUAAAAAAAAAARES.

shruikan2553

People seem to think that they are entitled to do something and for nobody to make a comment on it.

I'm entitled to put mayonnaise on my cereal and there's nothing anyone can do about it. People will still look over with disgust and ask why I would do such a thing. "Because I can" isn't much of an answer.

ricero

Have to say I'm disgusted with people taking down the no campaign posters. It spits in the face of democracy. Such bully boy tactics from the yes side which I frown upon. I think I'll abstain from voting over the nastiness of the last several weeks from both sides.

humanji

ricero wrote: »

Have to say I'm disgusted with people taking down the no campaign posters. It spits in the face of democracy. Such bully boy tactics from the yes side which I frown upon. I think I'll abstain from voting over the nastiness of the last several weeks from both sides.

Will you abstain from the other referendum too?

ohnonotgmail

ricero wrote: »

Have to say I'm disgusted with people taking down the no campaign posters. It spits in the face of democracy. Such bully boy tactics from the yes side which I frown upon. I think I'll abstain from voting over the nastiness of the last several weeks from both sides.

so it spits in the face of democracy so you decide to withdraw from democracy? makes sense in an alanis morissette, ironic, kinda way.

Bannasidhe

ricero wrote: »

Have to say I'm disgusted with people taking down the no campaign posters. It spits in the face of democracy. Such bully boy tactics from the yes side which I frown upon. I think I'll abstain from voting over the nastiness of the last several weeks from both sides.

I think I'll abstain because twice before the gubbermint made us re-referendum when they didn't like the result the first time and the last referendum may be over turned by the Supreme Courts and this spits in the face of democracy.

Or I might just look at the issue being voted upon and decide which one I, as an informed adult, agree with having done some research into the actual topic.

WoolyJumper

The yes side get a little "crazy" sometimes because they are the side with something to lose. The main one being the right to marry but much more than that. If the majority vote no, it will feel like a loss of dignity, respect and value in society. Add that to the fact that a lot of what the no side say feel like personal attacks and the often less than honest tactics they use to try and convince people to vote no.

It's to be expected that people on the yes side will get a little vocal, do stupid things like take down offensive posters. People are scared, angry and insulted.

It's easy for the no side to remain calm (not that they do) They are the ones pointing the finger. They are not on trial for who they are, who they fall in love with. No one is questioning their ability to love, have a successful marriage, raise kids. And they have nothing to lose from all of this. I can't help but look on in disbelief when the no side claim they are somehow victims in all of this.

One eyed Jack

ricero wrote: »

Have to say I'm disgusted with people taking down the no campaign posters. It spits in the face of democracy. Such bully boy tactics from the yes side which I frown upon. I think I'll abstain from voting over the nastiness of the last several weeks from both sides.

Notwithstanding the fact that you have no idea where these people align themselves politically (could easily be anarchists - they have no political allegiances, they will tear down both yes and no campaign posters, just for shìts 'n' giggles), you're completely missing the point of why people who are campaigning for marriage equality - because Irish society is not a democracy when all citizens are not represented equally in society.

If people tearing down posters is distasteful to your idea of a democracy, how does continuing discrimination against citizens of that society square with your idea of a democracy?

I'd respectfully suggest you give some thought to the bigger picture and the long term future of society before you allow yourself to be upset or offended by a couple of weeks of offensive behaviour after years of discrimination in a society that you thought was a democracy.

The_Kew_Tour

They're should be no vote at all next month tbh.

People should be allowed to marry whoever and whatever they want.

People should be able to do as they please once they don't hurt or abuse a system.

It would have at least rid us of the stupid everyday pettiness of the whole thing.

Ave Sodalis

Maybe some posters here can clear this up for me but how does taking down posters compare to some of the things the No side are coming out with. Even on this thread alone. I mean, is the things the likes of Fran and Reprise were saying really on the same level as taking down a poster? How many people from the No side were banned due to the stuff they were saying and ignoring mod warnings to stop? Why is taking down posters as bad if not worse than that? There even has to be a mod warning on the first page to tell people to stop calling homosexual paedophiles. I'm really stuggling to see how the dehumanisation techniques the No side is using are more acceptable...

B_Wayne

S.O wrote: »

More yes campaigners taking down no campaign posters,( see attachments ) I can,t recall people taking it upon themselves to take down posters in other referendums or elections.

I had a friend in college who had no blankets to spare when I was staying over one night so he handed me a Micheal Martin campaign poster. It's not new and the yes side are condemning such behaviour.

ricero wrote: »

Have to say I'm disgusted with people taking down the no campaign posters. It spits in the face of democracy. Such bully boy tactics from the yes side which I frown upon. I think I'll abstain from voting over the nastiness of the last several weeks from both sides.

The yes side including the likes of Colm O Gorman have condemned removing posters from day 1. So people behaving like idiots at that point is not their fault. Ironically the no side have made no effort to condemn the nastier behaviour.

If you're deciding whether to vote based on the conduct of a small number of people. You're wasting your democratic right. Weigh up arguments but don't bloody waste it.

suicide_circus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Hang on... are you saying that the upset caused to young people by posters telling them that their particular families are less than 'ideal' is ultimately good for them?
A form of tough love? :eek:

Wow. That is some 'protecting the children' spin there...

I'm saying protecting children from potentially offensive campaign posters is ultimately doing them a disservice

wp_rathead

suicide_circus wrote: »

I'm saying protecting children from potentially offensive campaign posters is ultimately doing them a disservice

How?

Bannasidhe

suicide_circus wrote: »

I'm saying protecting children from potentially offensive campaign posters is ultimately doing them a disservice

I think putting up such posters outside primary schools where very young children - some of whom have same-sex parents, one parent, adoptive parents, no parents, is cynical, vile and shows absolutely no regard for those children.

Ironically, given one of the 'arguments' against same-sex couples 'being allowed' children is those children would (note it's not could) be bullied in school - yet here is ammunition on a lamp post for 'reasons' to bully. 'You have no Mammy... bet you are Surrooogate!!'

Awful.

These people are vile and there is no 'positive'. When my son was small if I had seen those posters I would have made damn sure he never did! :mad:

StewartGriffin

wp_rathead wrote: »

How?

To say to your kid, "We don't like the look of this, lets pull it down," is lazy parenting in my opinion and gives the kid a wrong message for how to behave in the future

Takes a lot more effort to explain who put up the posters, why they put them up, why they are wrong to put them up and also why they have a right to put them up even though you disagree with them.

Bannasidhe

StewartGriffin wrote: »

To say to your kid, "We don't like the look of this, lets pull it down," is lazy parenting in my opinion and gives the kid a wrong message for how to behave in the future

Takes a lot more effort to explain who put up the posters, why they put them up, why they are wrong to put them up and also why they have a right to put them up even though you disagree with them.

Do you have teenage children?

StewartGriffin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you have teenage children?

None of your business.

shruikan2553

StewartGriffin wrote: »

To say to your kid, "We don't like the look of this, lets pull it down," is lazy parenting in my opinion and gives the kid a wrong message for how to behave in the future

Takes a lot more effort to explain who put up the posters, why they put them up, why they are wrong to put them up and also why they have a right to put them up even though you disagree with them.

Whats the child friendly way of saying "People hate us and don't think we're a family?"

kunst nugget

ricero wrote: »

Have to say I'm disgusted with people taking down the no campaign posters. It spits in the face of democracy. Such bully boy tactics from the yes side which I frown upon. I think I'll abstain from voting over the nastiness of the last several weeks from both sides.

This wasn't the collective action of everyone voting yes, just a couple people being assholes. Why tar everyone because of the actions of a few people?

Bannasidhe

StewartGriffin wrote: »

None of your business.

Ok.

Let me rephrase the question.

Do you think these posters are being taken down by adults with their children in tow or do you think they are being taken down by teenagers/young adults who are either acting alone or in a group of their peers?

Are parents responsible for the actions of a 19 year old?
Is every single indiscretion committed by an 18-21 year old the fault of 'bad parenting'?

Were you a paragon of perfect beheavour as a young adult who never ever EVER did anything without parental approval?

I wasn't. I Dyed my hair blue among other things...(like having sex with women)

StewartGriffin

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Whats the child friendly way of saying "People hate us and don't think we're a family?"

I may be wrong, but I think there are very very few people who actually hold that view. And this vote isn't going to change their mind either way.

StewartGriffin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ok.

Let me rephrase the question.

Do you think these posters are being taken down by adults with their children in tow or do you think they are being taken down by teenagers/young adults who are either acting alone or in a group of their peers?

Are parents responsible for the actions of a 19 year old?
Is every single indiscretion committed by an 18-21 year old the fault of 'bad parenting'?

Were you a paragon of perfect beheavour as a young adult who never ever EVER did anything without parental approval?

I wasn't. I Dyed my hair blue among other things...(like having sex with women)

I was talking more in terms of a parent taking them down, but yeah, I could understand a teenager taking them down, fair point.

I didn't have blue hair, or have any sex with women. Wasn't too bothered about the hair, but I really wanted the sex.