should the gaa turn professional?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

iDave

This pops up all the time but the reality is there isn't enough money to make it possible unless you reduced the amount of teams in the GAA dramatically which is a horrendous idea.
Instead of debating this we really should be looking at how to deal with the myriad of more pressing issues such as burnout, scheduling, competition structures, hurling development, infrasturcture etc.

Mackas_view

keane2097 wrote: »

I don't think this is anywhere near proven. Very inclined to call it straight up incorrect.

Have you ever been involved in a county set up in the past 5 years? Do you know more than 5 people who are currently involved in a county set up? My answer is yes to both and I can honestly say that in a lot of cases players are finding it very difficult to balance sport and work.

Take for example you live 60 mins from the training ground and you work 20 mins from home. You work a typical 9-5 and training starts at 1900 that leaves the county player 2 hours to eat and travel to training. 3 times per week (collectively) and the expected to fit in his own personal training on the other nights or mornings. So if for some reason he's required to work late or start training early, how does he balance this? He either misses trainin or can't meet the standards at work.
Now take into consideration he has a wife and two young kids at home!

I've seen cases like this on more than a couple of occasions. It a lot of pressure but that's a fairly typical situation (in my experience).

Nermal

bruschi wrote: »

ok, so the counties that go professional, who are they? And the ones that dont, who are they?

I don't know the financials, I can't tell you.

bruschi wrote: »

What about top class players from the non professional counties, what do they do?

They stay amateur. There's no reason they can't still play against professionals or semi-professionals, if we don't want to change competition structure. Of course they're unlikely to win very often, but that's not a problem in itself.

bruschi

Nermal wrote: »

I don't know the financials, I can't tell you.



They stay amateur.

ok so.

Take a very practical example then. Mattie Forde from Wexford was one of the finest forward in the game in the 00's. He easily would have made any team in the country, and if not starting, at a minimum in the top 20 of any county. He stays amateur? He knows he could make it as a professional then with another county.

He is from north Wexford, but was working out of Dublin. So he could legitimately transfer to Dublin.

So where does that leave Wexford? Every player would be transferring from amateur to professional teams. And you are left with a farce of county teams.

Do you want separate competitions for professional and amateur?

Actually, the whole thing is ridiculous. As I said, if someone can find the money where these players can be paid professionally, then start the debate. Until then, its pie in the sky stuff.

keane2097

ProudDUB wrote: »

Well, you know more about your own county than I do, but I can guarantee you that more lads from my own county are in the second category, than the first one.

If some like Bernard Brogan is coming out and saying that he chose to study accountancy, as it left him with more time to train for GAA, than if he was studying engineering, I seriously doubt if he is the only one to make a choice like that. I wonder how many lads are in teacher training college, as they have a genuine passion for teaching & education. Or are they there because they get two months off every summer and they knock off work every day at 3.30?

Bernard Brogan studied a course that left him conveniently placed to help run a successful company for his father. His comments on this matter during the week were bizarre, and more to do with buttering up those he manages than any genuine feeling that he missed out on anything because he played football. The idea for him in particular is laughable.

Re: the bolded bit - James Horan on Newstalk last week reckoned 13 of his starting 15 against Kerry were in professional employment, so for at least 50% of the All Ireland semi-finalists there doesn't appear to be an issue here.

Maybe it's a Dublin thing, although I strongly suspect you're getting cause and effect backwards here with Dublin players having the best choice by a mile of education and employment opportunities on their doorstep.

If Donnchadh Walsh can be a vet based in Waterford I find it hard not to roll my eyes at the idea that someone living in Glasnevin can't manage to train for football and become an engineer.

Realt Dearg Sec

Nermal wrote: »

I don't know the financials, I can't tell you.



They stay amateur. There's no reason they can't still play against professionals or semi-professionals, if we don't want to change competition structure. Of course they're unlikely to win very often, but that's not a problem in itself.

I don't think you've thought that through very far. So becoming professional just depends on the luck of geography? Why would people from the amateur counties continue to support an association that has relegated them permanently to a lower tier, whereby their voluntary work would be used to pay the wages of people from counties not their own? And when, inevitably, those counties simply pull out of the association, to set up a rival amateur one, how would the professional GAA then fund the remaining professional counties? Presumably they'd have to reduce the number of professional squads. And then, presumably, the recently rendered amateur counties would follow the path of the previous ones into the rival association. And then, how would the professional GAA then fund the remaining professional squads?

You see where I'm going with this...now the question is, even if this two tier GAA came into being, could you honestly say that whatever gains it involved would have been worth the cost? Why, basically, do it?

That is, of course, ignoring the question of county transfers. Do you honestly think that a situation will arise where a top class hurler, say from Carlow, will simply remain amateur while some journeyman who just happens to have been born two miles down the road in Kilkenny is able to make a professional career? Or do you think it's more likely that the pressure will come from every side to get rid of the idea that one plays for where he is from? I would argue your own approach is, and this is being charitable, very unlikely to be sustained.

Mackas_view

Why do people here keep referring to the AI semi finalists. Is there not another 28 counties involved here or am I missing something. Obviously the Gooches and Shefflins get their job and their free car but what about the player on the fringe of the first team in a Div3 side trying to gain promotion to Div2 or contest a provincial final.

Realt Dearg Sec

Mackas_view wrote: »

Why do people here keep referring to the AI semi finalists. Is there not another 28 counties involved here or am I missing something. Obviously the Gooches and Shefflins get their job and their free car but what about the player on the fringe of the first team in a Div3 side trying to gain promotion to Div2 or contest a provincial final.

Their point is that having a job and being at the peak of the game are compatible. They are specifically talking about players in real jobs at that level, rather than people getting jobs on the strength of their GAA career. To me that whole discussion is completely incidental to the question of professionalism though. The idea is simply not workable. The impasse we're at where demands are so high on players wont be resolved by professionalism, it will be resolved by pulling back from the level of pressure currently placed on players.

That said does anyone really think a situation will emerge where players will simply not be available who are willing to do what it takes to play? As a few have said, playing is a choice, if they don't like it they can just play club. That isn't the same as saying they shouldn't be looked after, but professionalism answers so few questions and raises so many, and I've never heard an advocate of it really answer the questions it raises.

Twoman Fullbackline

The only way that professionalism would even be feasible is if the sports took off in other countries. The Sky deal may be the first step on that route, but hurling & gaelic football being viable commercial commodities is still a long way off. Ireland is too small a market to sustain professional players. If there is a move to professionalism, I believe it will be driven by the growth of the sport in another country, probably the US.

Personally I hope it never becomes professional. It is one of the unique things about the GAA that huge crowds turn out to watch the best players who are playing for pride in the jersey, pride for their homeland and not for financial reward. And you, as a lowly club player, can still find yourself coming up against some of these players in competition when you return to the clubs. Does the world need another collection of dull, soulless sporting franchises built on piles of cash?

I understand that the demands in recent years have gone through the roof. Especially with the emphasis on underage teams and development squads etc, you have players who have a lot of miles on the clock even at the start of their senior intercounty careers. I would applaud any player who has the courage to say "Hang on, there is more I want in life than this." We may see reduced length careers in the near future, players retiring long before they hit the 30 mark, as they have given all they feel they can give.

BKWDR

No.

Mehapoy

BKWDR wrote: »

No.

Would never happen, Ireland is not big enough market for 1 sport to go professional never mind 2*32 to be professional, rugby with all it's international outlets etc. can barely sustain 4 professional teams.
In Australia where the afl commands full attention in probably half the country, about catchment of 10 mill people, they can sustain 18 teams, it's unbelievably marketed though and has changed the game to suit television to get some income, and in melbourne is the only game, although soccer is making inroads. Without totally changing the setups and having about 12 football and 6 hurling teams it may be able to be sustained but the sports would be completely different then, too mush of a sacrifice in my opinion...

keane2097

Professionalism itself is obviously a complete non-runner for many reasons, the insurmountable one being the lack of financial viability.

mickmackey1

bruschi wrote: »

ok so.

Take a very practical example then. Mattie Forde from Wexford was one of the finest forward in the game in the 00's. He easily would have made any team in the country, and if not starting, at a minimum in the top 20 of any county. He stays amateur? He knows he could make it as a professional then with another county.

He is from north Wexford, but was working out of Dublin. So he could legitimately transfer to Dublin.

So where does that leave Wexford? Every player would be transferring from amateur to professional teams. And you are left with a farce of county teams.

In about the same place as they are at the moment - the chances of Wexford winning the AI are about as good as Elvis crashing a UFO into the Loch Ness monster.

Whatever else professionalism would bring, it could hardly be more farcical than the present 'championship structure'.

bruschi

mickmackey1 wrote: »

In about the same place as they are at the moment - the chances of Wexford winning the AI are about as good as Elvis crashing a UFO into the Loch Ness monster.

Whatever else professionalism would bring, it could hardly be more farcical than the present 'championship structure'.

You seriously missed the point with your ridiculous dig. You do realise that Wexford played in an all Ireland semi final with Forde in the team?

Boom__Boom

The Kerry Squad from last year and what they were at

Coach Tour Operator
Primary Teacher 
AIB Bank Official
Pharmacist
Bank Official
Ulster Bank Official 
Primary Teacher
Student
Student
Bar Manager
Project Engineer
Student 
Company Rep
Printer
Student
Sports Science Trainee
Student
Student
Automation Engineer
Ulster Bank Official
Liebherr Container Cranes Sales Employee
Teacher CBS Tralee
Garda 
Sales Assistant
Quantity Surveyor
Biomedical Engineer
Physiotherapist
Bank of Ireland Employee
Trainee Accountant
PE Teacher
Technical Supervisor
Transaction Advisory Service with Ernest & Young
Trainee Accountant
Student

This is from a thing published on the Kerry County Board website - for the sake of privacy I haven't linked jobs to people.

7 Students out of 34.
The ages of the students were 25,24,24,23,22,22,21.

I don't know the details of what all the students were studying but of those I know about all of them were pursuing decent degrees or postgraduate studies - one of them was doing a Masters in IT and another one who is listed as a student there is now lecturing.

I'm not knocking the level of sacrifice the lads put in - I know lads who have played for Kerry fairy well and have seen the sacrifices they have had to make - However the thing is they are all doing it by choice - no-one is putting a gun to their heads.

if the game did go professional there are probably a serious number among that group who would end up in a far worse situation by going professional that they are currently

mickmackey1

bruschi wrote: »

You seriously missed the point with your ridiculous dig. You do realise that Wexford played in an all Ireland semi final with Forde in the team?

Had forgotten that admittedly. But the fact remains that 80% of county football teams are wasting their time under the present system & some experiment with professionalism would at least be worth trying.

Boom__Boom wrote: »

However the thing is they are all doing it by choice - no-one is putting a gun to their heads.

That kind of attitude seriously bugs me - "if ye're not prepared to make ridiculous sacrifices then ye can feck off" - we've lost many quality players because of that mentality and it's going to have an increasingly detrimental effect in the future.

Realt Dearg Sec

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Had forgotten that admittedly. But the fact remains that 80% of county football teams are wasting their time under the present system & some experiment with professionalism would at least be worth trying.




That kind of attitude seriously bugs me - "if ye're not prepared to make ridiculous sacrifices then ye can feck off" - we've lost many quality players because of that mentality and it's going to have an increasingly detrimental effect in the future.

Huh. So that mentality will cause us to lose players, yet you regard anyone who doesn't win an All Ireland as wasting their time? How many players would we lose if they all had your attitude?

keane2097

mickmackey1 wrote: »

That kind of attitude seriously bugs me - "if ye're not prepared to make ridiculous sacrifices then ye can feck off" - we've lost many quality players because of that mentality and it's going to have an increasingly detrimental effect in the future.

What sport can you be a national level competitor at without training a lot?

Swimmers, cyclists, golfers, clay pigeon shooters - if you want to be good at sports you have to practise your nuts off no matter what it is you are at.

bruschi

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Had forgotten that admittedly. But the fact remains that 80% of county football teams are wasting their time under the present system & some experiment with professionalism would at least be worth trying.




That kind of attitude seriously bugs me - "if ye're not prepared to make ridiculous sacrifices then ye can feck off" - we've lost many quality players because of that mentality and it's going to have an increasingly detrimental effect in the future.

so you only want 20% of the current set up to remain, and that the good players from weaker counties join the big ones and create a superleague of 6 to 8 teams?

Realt Dearg Sec

bruschi wrote: »

so you only want 20% of the current set up to remain, and that the good players from weaker counties join the big ones and create a superleague of 6 to 8 teams?

And presumably just two hurling teams, on that percentage. Limerick, incidentally, wouldn't be one of them.Would he support the Tipp-Cork PremierRebels, or the Kilkenny Wildcats each year?

bruschi

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

And presumably just two hurling teams, on that percentage. Limerick, incidentally, wouldn't be one of them.Would he support the Tipp-Cork PremierRebels, or the Kilkenny Wildcats each year?

Wexford might finally win an All Ireland again if ye'll let us join ye.

randd1

Its a non-starter completely, simply not a big enough population in the country to support 64 county teams.

Even something as simple as a grant of €3000 to 30 players and 5 managerial staff, that would be €210,000 a year per county over two codes, which is probably well out of reach financially to every county.
And the only way you could even support that would be to overhaul the championship into a league format structure to ensure enough home games per county in both codes to find the finance.

aidan24326

thehouses wrote: »

Sky sports brought a great deal of money to the English Premier League. That would one possible way of funding professionalism.

randd1 wrote: »

Its a non-starter completely, simply not a big enough population in the country to support 64 county teams.

Even something as simple as a grant of €3000 to 30 players and 5 managerial staff, that would be €210,000 a year per county over two codes, which is probably well out of reach financially to every county.
And the only way you could even support that would be to overhaul the championship into a league format structure to ensure enough home games per county in both codes to find the finance.

And even then you'd need to market the hell out of it. One of the reasons Sky were so successful with their branding of the premier league was the way they marketed the whole package, the way they've managed to hype the bejesus out of it. But the key difference is that soccer is a global sport with a huge audience so the potential was obvious and Sky succesfully tapped into that.

GAA is currently too small and too parochial to generate the sort of money that would make it viable as a professional sport. At best and even at a stretch the best you could offer players would be a salary not much better than the industrial average*, so even for the players there would be little motivation to go professional just to earn average money and then have to start again from scratch once your playing career ends.

*and in the smaller counties even that would be totally unrealistic. Many county boards are struggling financially even with the current setup, so the idea of funding professional teams is absolute pie in the sky.

aidan24326

Another point is that with a professional format, it would be an open labour market, players would be free to transfer to whoever is going to pay them the most money. No need to even worry too much about developing underage talent if you're one of the big boys, you can just poach the best players with offers of more money.

deadybai

aidan24326 wrote: »

Another point is that with a professional format, it would be an open labour market, players would be free to transfer to whoever is going to pay them the most money. No need to even worry too much about developing underage talent if you're one of the big boys, you can just poach the best players with offers of more money.

If GAA did become professional then there would have to be a no transfer policy.

Pay for play wouldnt work. Players would still have to built careers for themselves as they would be left with nothing if they didnt after they retired.

However, The Austrailian football league is an indigenous professionally run sport. If that can become professional,why cant GAA?

The Lost Sheep

deadybai wrote: »

If GAA did become professional then there would have to be a no transfer policy.

Pay for play wouldnt work. Players would still have to built careers for themselves as they would be left with nothing if they didnt after they retired.

However, The Austrailian football league is an indigenous professionally run sport. If that can become professional,why cant GAA?

Have would you have a no transfer policy in a professional environment? Restriction of work, employment law etc

deadybai

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Have would you have a no transfer policy in a professional environment? Restriction of work, employment law etc

I dont know how. Im just saying that there would have to be for it to work.

Realt Dearg Sec

deadybai wrote: »

I dont know how. Im just saying that there would have to be for it to work.

Then that's another reason it wouldn't work. It's illegal to restrict free movement of labour like that.

The Lost Sheep

deadybai wrote: »

I dont know how. Im just saying that there would have to be for it to work.

Why would there have to be and you wouldn't be allowed as it would be illegal