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Should France be allowed to ban the Burka?

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135

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    #62
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    gozunda wrote:
    Many Muslim woman don't have that 'choice'.


    Now none of them do.


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    #63
    Sisko
    Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭Sisko


    To answer the OP:

    I think they are probably going a bit too far making an out right ban. I can understand places of work should have a dress code and also for security reasons there are times when it should be removed but an out right ban? No, its a step too far I think a step backwards too, as long as it can be as certain as possible no ones is being 'forced' to wear one when they don't want to, it should not be against the law to wear one.


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    #64
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Sisko wrote: »
    as long as it can be as certain as possible no ones is being 'forced' to wear one when they don't want to, it should not be against the law to wear one.

    How can you be certain they aren't forced? A lot of them would be so fearful of their relations that they would say they are willingly doing when they are not. Then there seems to be a section of female muslims who have a sort of Stockholm syndrome when it comes to the burka, they have been so indocrinated that they think they are willingly wearing it when it's just that the cultural brainwashing has been so effective.


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    #65
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    gozunda wrote: »
    Tell that to Muslim women forced into burkas and other types of clothing under threat of violence and disfigurement.

    In Muslim countries the wearing of 'banned items' will result in very serious punishment and violence.

    Which countries?? This is certainly not true for the majority of countries. The Taliban are not "Muslim countries".
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    No this is a security and cultural issue. Irish teachers said it would be unworkable in the class room and for exams. If you dont like it either change the law or more preferable find another country. More likely ... if you are wearing a burka you are not really Irish. If you have come to Ireland to agitiate and stir get back on the boat from whence you came. The abortion and same sex marriage acts are being reviewed and are both delicate issues. This is something alien and unworkable in this country.

    What utter nonsense...Are you saying that Irish converts to Islam cannot wear a burqa or hijab without being "not really Irish" - dude, get a grip.

    I suggest you both have a crack at this little quiz and find out that you don't know as much as you think you know.

    http://www.judaism-islam.com/can-you-guess-her-religion-from-her-hair-covering/#mlw_top_of_quiz


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    #66
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    gozunda wrote: »
    Missed the point completely? Rather the point is that anyone who wishes to stand up for Muslims to demand the right to have Muslim women to wear Burkas in western countries then should also stand up for the rights of western women to ware what they want in Muslim counties . It's bizarre they never do ...

    This is totally illogical. The burka is a religious garment. Bikinis etc are not.If you are in a country you need to think re respecting its laws and religion. Like churches in eg Venice who ask that you cover bare flesh . The concern re the burka is a security one and needs thinking on. It can be done sensitively


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    #67
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Allowed by who.


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    #68
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Daftendirekt wrote: »
    Now none of them do.


    Free choice or forced choice? There have been verified cases of women have had acid thrown in their faces or who faced beatings for making their 'choice' not to wear restrictive Muslim apparel.

    The current French legislation provides for control of all types of head coverings not just the burka. The legislation is quite clear as to the security issues of such apparel. When in any country it is accepted that national laws are obeyed?


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    #69
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    MadsL wrote: »
    Which countries?? This is certainly not true for the majority of countries. The Taliban are not "Muslim countries".

    Well let me see both Iran and Saudi Arabia employ 'religious' police who employe extreme methods such as use of canes for beating and arrests where women do not follow the strict dress codes. And yes now that you mention the Taliban the Taliban in 'some' Muslim countries such as Afghanistan have violently enforced restrictive dress codes on women.

    Here is an example of religious police in action - it is without doubt that many such incidences are under reported due to fear and intimidation

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/iran-religious-police-at-book-fair-beat-inappropriately-dressed-women


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    #70
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Graces7 wrote: »
    This is totally illogical. The burka is a religious garment. Bikinis etc are not.If you are in a country you need to think re respecting its laws and religion. Like churches in eg Venice who ask that you cover bare flesh . The concern re the burka is a security one and needs thinking on. It can be done sensitively

    The point that you are ignoring is that it appears the thing to do is for the PC brigade to scream for Muslim women's 'right' (sic) to wear specific clothing in western countries but to ignore an equal right for western women to wear specific western clothing anywhere in Muslim countries.

    But really - Illogical according to what sense of warped reality? Many religions request worshippers / visitors to adhere to certain guidelines when in actual places of worship. That is not being debated.

    The burka as a piece of clothing at the end of the day which many Muslim women have no choice in wearing whether they in public or elsewhere. How so do you claim the burka as a 'religious' garment? It is not mentioned in the Quran or other religious text. The women obliged to wear it are not the equivalent of clerics or nuns. They are just regular women. They have no choice. Enforcement in the wearing of such clothing has been largely engendered by interpreted sharia law.

    The comparable issue of regular western clothing such as shorts and tee shirts which are are banned in many Muslim counties and which laws westerners are expected to obey. Does the same expectation of obeying another countries laws not apply to other countries citizens or must there be special exemption made for laws based on archaic practises?


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    #71
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    "Allowed" by who? Psycho medievalist nutters?


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    #72
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Graces7 wrote: »
    This is totally illogical. The burka is a religious garment. Bikinis etc are not.If you are in a country you need to think re respecting its laws and religion. Like churches in eg Venice who ask that you cover bare flesh . The concern re the burka is a security one and needs thinking on. It can be done sensitively
    The first Muslim was a woman. I wonder if she wore one?


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    #73
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,779 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Who are we to say what France should or shouldn't be allowed to do?

    What I think people should do is follow the laws of the country the choose to live in however if they disagree with them then there's a democratic option available to them in western countries that they can use to go about doing this.


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    #74
    ALiasEX
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ALiasEX


    gozunda wrote: »
    Personal again :rolleyes: of interest - house arrest by who? I was not aware that forced domestic house arrest in France was legal either!
    House arrest by fear of acid or beatings.
    gozunda wrote: »
    Free choice or forced choice? There have been verified cases of women have had acid thrown in their faces or who faced beatings for making their 'choice' not to wear restrictive Muslim apparel.


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    #75
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    ALiasEX wrote: »
    House arrest by fear of acid or beatings.

    Such barbaric behaviour or threat of such behaviour does not invalidate the right of France to legislate on such matters. Under the current French legislation such acts are illegal and rightly so.
    More severe penalties are in store for those found guilty of forcing others to cover their faces by means of "threats, violence and constraint, abuse of authority or power for reason of their gender." Clearly aimed at Muslim fathers, husbands or religious leaders, anyone found guilty of forcing a woman to wear an Islamic veil against her will is subject to a fine of €30,000 ($40,000) and one year in jail, or €60,000 ($80,000) and up to two years in jail if the case involves a minor.

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3877/france-muslim-attack-burqa-ban


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    #76
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,496 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    RayM wrote: »
    So western countries should act a bit more like Middle Eastern countries then, when deciding what people can and cannot wear? I'm not sure I like that, to be honest...

    ugh give over


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    #77
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,779 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    RayM wrote: »
    So western countries should act a bit more like Middle Eastern countries then, when deciding what people can and cannot wear? I'm not sure I like that, to be honest...

    In France the law is they can wear anything but the burkha, in many muslim countries they can wear the Burkha and nothing else.

    Understand the difference?


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    #78
    annascott
    Registered Users Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭annascott


    Yes they should be allowed to ban any of the islamic face coverings. It is then up to individuals to either not wear them or avoid France. It works both ways - I would observe the dress code if visiting an islamic country. If I found it too restrictive, then I would not go there.


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    #79
    annascott
    Registered Users Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭annascott


    MadsL wrote: »
    I suggest you both have a crack at this little quiz and find out that you don't know as much as you think you know.

    http://www.judaism-islam.com/can-you-guess-her-religion-from-her-hair-covering/#mlw_top_of_quiz


    potato potahto:rolleyes:


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    #80
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    So, nuns are not banned from wearing the Habit? Priests are not allowed to wear the collar? A random French person is banned from wearing a crucifix with an open necked shirt?
    Bullsh!t.
    Also, the burqa is not so much religious as it is cultural.

    Not sure what your point is here? In many lands yes Nun are barred from wearing the habit eg Mexico ..cannot remember offhand what the current situation re veils worn by Nuns is in the US.. I think that passport photo have to bb bare headed? The burka IS religious and thus appears a cultural


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    #81
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Graces7 wrote: »
    This is totally illogical. The burka is a religious garment. Bikinis etc are not.If you are in a country you need to think re respecting its laws and religion. Like churches in eg Venice who ask that you cover bare flesh . The concern re the burka is a security one and needs thinking on. It can be done sensitively

    The burka is NOT a religous garment. This is something that really needs to be hammered home, there are many muslim dominated countries where the burkha is not worn, it is a garment that comes from places that have heavily patriarchal societies where misogyny is endemic.


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    #82
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    gozunda wrote: »
    Well let me see both Iran and Saudi Arabia employ 'religious' police who employe extreme methods such as use of canes for beating and arrests where women do not follow the strict dress codes. And yes now that you mention the Taliban the Taliban in 'some' Muslim countries such as Afghanistan have violently enforced restrictive dress codes on women.

    Here is an example of religious police in action - it is without doubt that many such incidences are under reported due to fear and intimidation

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/iran-religious-police-at-book-fair-beat-inappropriately-dressed-women
    VinLieger wrote: »
    In France the law is they can wear anything but the burkha, in many muslim countries they can wear the Burkha and nothing else.

    Understand the difference?

    So far posters have identified 2.5 countries. Tht is far from "many". Let's get a grip eh?


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    #83
    eeepaulo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    The burka is NOT a religous garment. This is something that really needs to be hammered home, there are many muslim dominated countries where the burkha is not worn, it is a garment that comes from places that have heavily patriarchal societies where misogyny is endemic.

    This is my understanding as well, i heard shami chakrabarti owning a bunch of imams one night on hardtalk (i think it was)

    From http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/the_burqa_%28P1357%29.html
    What does The Quran say about the burqa?

    First of all it depends upon who you ask. There is disagreement in Islamic circles as to what extent Quran advocates the wearing of the burqa. However, The Quran does not specifically mention the burqa or tell women to wear such extremely confining clothes. Instead, it instructs men and women to dress and behave modestly in society (24:31), which the Ulama or “Scholars” do agree upon. Modern day Muslims base their authority regarding the burqa on the hadith or collected traditions of life in the days of prophet Muhammad. It is important to note here that these “collected traditions” have no place in Islam, (please see relevant articles on this site). Most followers of these traditions know little of their origins or authenticity. For the thousands of traditions attributed to the Prophet only one bears notable credibility:

    “Do not write down anything I say except the Quran. Whoever has written something other than Quran let him destroy it.” (Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, Vol. 1, page 171 also Sahih Muslim, Book 42, Number 7147).

    With contradiction and confused thrown up by the hadith and “scholars of Islam” let us consider what the Quran, the word of God, says on the topic of a dress code.

    For women: Cover your chest (24:31); Lengthen your garments (33:59) and for both sexes; The BEST garment is righteousness and modest conduct (7:26).


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    #84
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,001 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Warper wrote: »
    Should they since they are all about freedom of expression?
    no . as much as i've no time for it, banning it is against such freedom of expression

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #85
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    The burka is NOT a religous garment. This is something that really needs to be hammered home, there are many muslim dominated countries where the burkha is not worn, it is a garment that comes from places that have heavily patriarchal societies where misogyny is endemic.

    Your definition of "religious" is skewed. You are meaning religious as in priests or nun, whereas the real meaning is according to religious tradition governing daily life of ordinary people. What you call mysogyny is a part of those rules although they would not see it a such. So the burka is not like the veil of a nun or the collar of a priest but the expected and enforced everyday dress on ordinary life. and therefore a religious garment in the fullest sense so please do not shout! In the same way as some churches insist on all women covering their heads in Church. For reasons of religion and tradition.


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    #86
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    gozunda wrote: »
    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3877/france-muslim-attack-burqa-ban

    "I don't obey the laws of France"she's reported to have said.
    Right so, feck off somewhere you can freely exercise your right to wear your burka.


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    #87
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    You seem to believe there were few if any countries where such things happened when You asked ...
    MadsL wrote: »
    Which countries?? This is certainly not true for the majority of countries. The Taliban are not "Muslim countries".
    MadsL wrote: »
    So far posters have identified 2.5 countries. Tht is far from "many". Let's get a grip eh?

    Ffs There are many others if you care to find out. I would suggest you go and educate yourself rather than insist others do this for you.


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    #88
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    end of the road wrote: »
    no . as much as i've no time for it, banning it is against such freedom of expression

    Being forced to wear such dress is the negation of all freedom of expression


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    #89
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,001 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    gozunda wrote: »
    Being forced to wear such dress is the negation if all freedom of expression
    "if" "forced" . we can't say that all who wear it are forced to do so. some may well be, but others will do it of their own accord whether we like it agree with it or not

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #90
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    end of the road wrote: »
    "if" "forced" . we can't say that all who wear it are forced to do so. some may well be, but others will do it of their own accord whether we like it agree with it or not

    Unfortunately it would appear to be all too common with woman being disfigured and attacked for not wearing such dress. Is is an advancement for the rights of those who are forced that French legislation now applies significant penalties on those that force others to do so. Imo Whilst there is even a single incidence of such force, every facet of the law should be applied to ensure that no one is ever forced to do so. Importantly in this discussion French legislation covers all types of head covering not just Burkas. I suggest you read the legislation to better understands this.


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    #91
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,001 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    gozunda wrote: »
    Unfortunately it would appear to be all too common with woman being disfigured and attacked for not wearing such dress. Is is an advancement for the rights of those who are forced that French legislation now applies significant penalties on those that force others to do so. Imo Whilst there is even a single incidence of such force, every facet of the law should be applied to ensure that no one is ever forced to do so. Importantly in this discussion French legislation covers all types of head covering not just Burkas. I suggest you read the legislation to better understands this.
    i have read it. frankly dealing with those doing the forcing rather then banning a garment would be a much better use of resources

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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