Should France be allowed to ban the Burka?

Warper

Should they since they are all about freedom of expression?

gozunda

Warper wrote: »

Should they since they are all about freedom of expression?

They can legislate for what they want.
France is not a 'Muslim country. And
such 'freedom of expression' (sic) contradicts basic French principles of equality, fraternity and liberty and notably are a serious security issue in public where they allow individuals to hide their identies. And don't even try and tell me all Muslim women wish to or have any choice in wearing the burka. Even in France Muslim women have had acid thrown on them by fellow Muslims for dressing 'immodestly' ...

Warper

gozunda wrote: »

They can legislate for what they want.
France is not a 'Muslim country. And
such 'freedom of expression' and contradicts basic French principles of equality, fraternity and liberty and notably are a serious security issue in public where they allow individuals to hide their identies. And don't even try and tell me all Muslim women wish to or have any choice in wearing the burka. Even in France Muslim women have had acid thrown on them by fellow Muslims for dressing 'immodestly' ...

That is backed up by what? The numerous incidents of burka wearing people committing evil crimes?

Señor Fancy Pants

No frickin' way! How else can ya boil enough water for 500 cups of tae?! Disgraceful.

Atlantic Dawn

Yes each country should be able to legislate whatever they want, some countries want people to not drink, have women walk behind men like dogs, not let women drive cars etc etc, if you don't like the legislation don't live there.

Intensive Care Bear

Lets give women the freedom to wear what they want by telling them they can't wear a certain thing

gozunda

Warper wrote: »

That is backed up by what? The numerous incidents of burka wearing people committing evil crimes?

Even in some Muslim countries - women are obliged to remove head coverings for security purposes.

But yes indeed

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news/crime/2014/11/19/men_dressed_in_burkas_steal_500000_in_jewelry.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008641/Hunt-burka-raider-Man-dressed-Muslim-woman-caught-CCTV-robbing-travel-agencies.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2601721/Smash-DRAG-Gang-men-dressed-burkas-pretended-rich-Muslim-women-steal-designer-watches-worth-1-4million-Selfridges.html

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/phyllis-chesler/terrorists-in-drag-bombs-beneath-the-burqa/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8694814/Burka-clad-female-suicide-bomber-detonates-in-Pakistan.html

There are many many more examples

Your point is what exactly? That Muslims terrorists are validated in shooting others because France won't enable them to impose restrictions on half the Muslim population?

Gringo180

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes each country should be able to legislate whatever they want, some countries want people to not drink, have women walk behind men like dogs, not let women drive cars etc etc, if you don't like the legislation don't live there.

Mad why the West want rid of the North Korean leader so isnt it.

AboutaWeekAgo

Ban the bra first I say!

bjork

Truffle Pig wrote: »

No frickin' way! How else can ya boil enough water for 500 cups of tae?! Disgraceful.

The local Pioneer annual dinner dance would be chaos

gozunda

1210m5g wrote: »

Lets give women the freedom to wear what they want by telling them they can't wear a certain thing

Many Muslim woman don't have that 'choice'.

Lau2976

The right to safety outweighs the right to wear what you want.


People can call it islamphobic, or racist all they want but being around someone covered completely head to toe, other then their eyes, is a frightening situation. Really anybody could be in a burka. Dangerous or otherwise

We ban hoods and helmets in places. Anything that does not reveal your face should not be allowed.

RayM

gozunda wrote: »

Many Muslim woman don't have that 'choice'.

Should those who choose to wear one be banned from doing so?

ancapailldorcha

A custom which oppresses women? Should have been banned ages ago.

vienne86

France can do what it likes. I'm not even sure why it is banned there.

athtrasna

We all should. When in Rome etc. I have covered up in Muslim /Buddhist countries as a mark of respect and in some cases law. I whole heartedly would support the banning of the Burqa here.

gozunda

RayM wrote: »

Should those who choose to wear one be banned from doing so?

France can choose to legislate in order that no women can be forced to do so. France is not a Muslim country. Women visiting many middle eastern countries are banned from wearing bikinis / shorts / tee shirts I don't see to many protesting about that here ...

RayM

gozunda wrote: »

France can choose to legislate in order that no women can be forced to do so. France is not a Muslim country. Women visiting many middle eastern countries are banned from wearing bikinis / shorts / tee shirts I don't see to many protesting about that here ...

So western countries should act a bit more like Middle Eastern countries then, when deciding what people can and cannot wear? I'm not sure I like that, to be honest...

Lau2976

RayM wrote: »

So western countries should act a bit more like Middle Eastern countries then, when deciding what people can and cannot wear? I'm not sure I like that, to be honest...

But it isn't a case if controlling for any other reason then safety.

gozunda

Lau2976 wrote: »

But it isn't a case if controlling for any

other reason then safety.

^^^ this and

And importantly the reason behind the French legislation comes not from some archaic interpretation of an ancient religous text but rational national legislation

Intensive Care Bear

I actually own a Burka, i bought one last year for a fancy dress party, i enjoyed wearing it so much i have worn it a few times in the last year.

gozunda

1210m5g wrote: »

I actually own a Burka, i bought one last year for a fancy dress party, i enjoyed wearing it so much i have worn it a few times in the last year.

Doing what exactly?

Letree

Its their decision.

athtrasna

1210m5g wrote: »

I actually own a Burka, i bought one last year for a fancy dress party, i enjoyed wearing it so much i have worn it a few times in the last year.

Shoplifting? I've seen it happen more than once. No security guard would do anything about it for fear of being accused of racism

Tin Foil Hat

Warper wrote: »

Should they since they are all about freedom of expression?

They absolutely should not ban them. However, there is absolutely no reason why those who chose to wear them should not have to show their faces where everybody else has to - in banks or airports, for example.
Freedom of religion should only entitle you to equal treatment. Not exceptional treatment. You wanna pass through an airport in a bin bag? Tough sh!t sister. Take it off, or find another way.

jimboblep

The ban is about all face covering in a public and was not specifically aimed at muslims.
I know others will come in now and say it was, but the european court of human rights doesnt agree with them.
This has been done before on another thread and yes France absolutely has the right to legislate how it sees fit in accordance with EU law

BBJBIG

They look loike Bin bags - I'm burnin me Y-fronts in protest ....

gozunda

RayM wrote: »

So western countries should act a bit more like Middle Eastern countries then, when deciding what people can and cannot wear? I'm not sure I like that, to be honest...

As I said Women visiting many middle eastern countries are banned from wearing bikinis / shorts / tee shirts I don't see to many protesting about that here.

Muslim in other countries should not have any expectation that they have special exemptions from the laws and customs of those counries.

A very real case of double standards.

Intensive Care Bear

gozunda wrote: »

Doing what exactly?

I usually get it out when i'm smashed and want to do the shop run in disguise.

Tin Foil Hat

gozunda wrote: »

As I said Women visiting many middle eastern countries are banned from wearing bikinis / shorts / tee shirts I don't see to many protesting about that here.

Muslim in other countries should not have any expectation that they have special exemptions from the laws and customs of those counries.

A very real case of double standards.

I don't think you'll find too many people who won't agree that those countries are backward, oppressive sh1teholes. It's a terrible argument, in fairness.

KungPao

Oui.

gozunda

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

I don't think you'll find too many people who won't agree that those countries are backward, oppressive sh1teholes. It's a terrible argument, in fairness.

A double negative that is immeasurable for all practical purposes. If someone wishes to take a stand for Muslim women to wear burkas them they should also stand up for western women to wear bikinis / teeshirts / shorts in Muslim countries. But that's not seen as an issue for some reason. Btw It's not an argument. - it's an observation. I have already stated the main reasons why I believe France is perfectly entitled to create informed national legislation.

Tin Foil Hat

gozunda wrote: »

No it's not. If someone wishes to take a stand for Muslim women to wear burka them they should also stand up for western women to wear bikinis / teeshirts / shorts in Muslim countries. But that's not seen as an issue for some reason. Btw It's not an argument. - it's an observation. I have already stated the main reasons why I believe France is perfectly entitled to create informed national legislation.

Right then. Those Medieval, Middle-Eastern Sand-Dunes should allow women to wear t-shirts/shorts/bikinis - Just as we, in the West should allow, women to wear burkas. Freedom! Yay!
Thank this post if you agree.

Happy?

RayM

gozunda wrote: »

As I said Women visiting many middle eastern countries are banned from wearing bikinis / shorts / tee shirts I don't see to many protesting about that here.

Muslim in other countries should not have any expectation that they have special exemptions from the laws and customs of those counries.

A very real case of double standards.

People should have the right to wear whatever they choose, whether they're in the Middle East or in Europe. The real double standard is when people think banning items of clothing is opposing oppression.

gozunda

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

Right then. Those Medieval, Middle-Eastern Sand-Dunes should allow women to wear t-shirts/shorts/bikinis - Just as we, in the West should allow, women to wear burkas. Freedom! Yay!
Thank this post if you agree.

Happy?

Missed the point completely? Rather the point is that anyone who wishes to stand up for Muslims to demand the right to have Muslim women to wear Burkas in western countries then should also stand up for the rights of western women to ware what they want in Muslim counties . It's bizarre they never do ...

Smiles35

The French are big into getting into each other, even on the public road. It's a culture thing imo.

The Domonator

1210m5g wrote: »

I actually own a Burka, i bought one last year for a fancy dress party, i enjoyed wearing it so much i have worn it a few times in the last year.

Where did you buy it? I'm looking to get one myself.

gozunda

RayM wrote: »

People should have the right to wear whatever they choose, whether they're in the Middle East or in Europe. The real double standard is when people think banning items of clothing is opposing oppression.

It depends absolutely why such a law has been passed. In the Middle East women's clothing is proscribed by archaic religous text transcribed into sharia law.

In France the law as backed by the EU relates to all head coverings not just burkas - but then facts are always the first casualties of such twisted thinking ...

Tin Foil Hat

gozunda wrote: »

Missed the point completely? Rather the point is that anyone who wishes to stand up for Muslims to demand the right to have Muslim women to wear Burkas in western countries

You don't have to 'stand up for muslims' to argue that governments should not dictate how people are allowed to dress. You are the one missing the point.

gozunda wrote: »

then should also stand up for the rights of western women to ware what they want in Muslim counties. It's bizarre they never do ...

I just did.

RayM

gozunda wrote: »

It depends absolutely why such a law has been passed. In the Middle East women's clothing is proscribed by archaic religous text transcribed into sharia law.

In France the law as backed by the EU relates to all head coverings not just burkas - but then facts are always the first casualties of such twisted thinking ...

In both cases, the wearing of the banned items is a victimless crime.

gozunda

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

You don't have to 'stand up for muslims' to argue that governments should not dictate how people are allowed to dress. You are the one missing the point.

No you are missing the point. This legislation is about all encompassing head coverings and was ratified by the EU. But yes internet warriors attempting to stirr up issues of 'dress' need to present all the facts and not just jump on a very wonky bandwagon.

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

I just did.

Only because I had just made that observation. I have yet to see any threads on Boards advocating for Bikini / Tee shirt /short wearing rights for western women in Muslim countries :rolleyes:

gozunda

RayM wrote: »

In both cases, the wearing of the banned items is a victimless crime.

Tell that to Muslim women forced into burkas and other types of clothing under threat of violence and disfigurement.

In Muslim countries the wearing of 'banned items' will result in very serious punishment and violence.

Lau2976

RayM wrote: »

In both cases, the wearing of the banned items is a victimless crime.

By that logic so is wearing a hood, or mask, or helmet, etc. Yet we don't allow that because of safety

Personal belief means nothing when your out in the street.

Are you comfortable in a line at the bank with someone covering their faces?

RayM

Lau2976 wrote: »

By that logic so is wearing a hood, or mask, or helmet, etc is.

Are you comfortable in a line at the bank with someone covering their faces?

No. I think it's absolutely fair to tell people to remove their hoods, masks, helmets (and their burkas) in buildings. I don't think it's fair to tell people what they can and cannot wear on the streets.

Tin Foil Hat

gozunda wrote: »

No you are missing the point. This legislation is about all encompassing head coverings and was ratified by the EU. But yes internet warriors attempting to stirr up issues of 'dress' need to present all the facts and not just jump on a very wonky bandwagon.

Bandwagon? That bandwagon where people who live in western countries should not have legislation dictate how they are allowed to dress. That's not a wonky bandwagon. It's a non-existent bandwagon.

You are delusional if you think that that law was drawn up with anything other that muslims in mind. Otherwise it would effectively ban Halloween parties, ski-masks in the alps, even wearing a hat and a scarf over your face on a cold winter day. It's a law of oppression, oppression of a poisonous idelogy, granted, but oppression none the less.

You are also delusional if you think that enforcing it would improve the lives of many those who wear them. It could just as easily sentence many of those women to virtual house arrest.

gozunda

RayM wrote: »

No. I think it's absolutely fair to tell people to remove their hoods, masks, helmets (and their burkas) in buildings. I don't think it's fair to tell people what they can and cannot wear on the streets.

The French goverment have ruled differently. As it stands the law of the land. All western countries proscribe various freedoms of citizens and visitors in the national interest. I might believe it's not fair that I have to drive on the left but that's the law.

Bootros Bootros

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

Bandwagon? That bandwagon where people who live in western countries should not have legislation dictate how they are allowed to dress. That's not a wonky bandwagon. It's a non-existent bandwagon.

You are delusional if you think that that law was drawn up with anything other that muslims in mind. Otherwise it would effectively ban Halloween parties, ski-masks in the alps, even wearing a hat and a scarf over your face on a cold winter day. It's a law of oppression, oppression of a poisonous idelogy, granted, but oppression none the less.

You are also delusional if you think that enforcing it would improve the lives of many those who wear them. It could just as easily sentence many of those women to virtual house arrest.

Ah stop talking through your half educated arse. France had been banning religious attire for decades. Christian for the most part. It's not a new law or specifically targeting islam, France bans or prohibits most religious symbolism in the public sphere.

gozunda

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

Bandwagon? That bandwagon where people who live in western countries should not have legislation dictate how they are allowed to dress. That's not a wonky bandwagon. It's a non-existent bandwagon.

Again and again it's not about 'dress' the legislation covers all types of headcovering. Other types of headcovering such as helmets are only worn during specific activities such as driving. The issue with the burka style headdress is that it is worm permanently. Hence it's inclusion in the legislation. Now if someone wishes to wear a long robe or dress - that is not an issue under french legislation.

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

You are delusional if you think that that law was drawn up with anything other that muslims in mind. Otherwise it would effectively ban Halloween parties, ski-masks in the alps, even wearing a hat and a scarf over your face on a cold winter day. It's a law of oppression, oppression of a poisonous idelogy, granted, but oppression none the less.

Getting personal much! Anyway have you actually read the legislation? From that little diatribe I reckon you have not. See the first paragraph as why the burka is included in that legislation.

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

You are also delusional if you think that enforcing it would improve the lives of many those who wear them. It could just as easily sentence many of those women to virtual house arrest.

Personal again :rolleyes: of interest - house arrest by who? I was not aware that forced domestic house arrest in France was legal either!

Tin Foil Hat

Bootros Bootros wrote: »

Ah stop talking through your half educated arse. France had been banning religious attire for decades. Christian for the most part. It's not a new law or specifically targeting islam, France bans or prohibits most religious symbolism in the public sphere.

So, nuns are not banned from wearing the Habit? Priests are not allowed to wear the collar? A random French person is banned from wearing a crucifix with an open necked shirt?
Bullsh!t.
Also, the burqa is not so much religious as it is cultural.

RayM

gozunda wrote: »

The French goverment have ruled differently. As it stands the law of the land. All western countries proscribe various freedoms of citizens and visitors in the national interest. I might believe it's not fair that I have to drive on the left but that's the law.

Not sure how the national interest is served by depriving people of the right to wear whatever they choose.

hfallada

Yes France should be allowed to ban. Like the way they forbid students entering a school with a crucifix around their neck.

The Burka is a new thing for muslims and is a sign of oppression. Look at old pictures of Iran before the revolution and you will see women wearing clothes that would be considered risky in Ireland. But now women have to wear head scarves and cover it. They arent doing it because of their religion, but because they are forced to do it. Even Turkey had bans on head scarves in some Government buildings.