Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Should France be allowed to ban the Burka?

Options
245

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    I don't think you'll find too many people who won't agree that those countries are backward, oppressive sh1teholes. It's a terrible argument, in fairness.

    A double negative that is immeasurable for all practical purposes. If someone wishes to take a stand for Muslim women to wear burkas them they should also stand up for western women to wear bikinis / teeshirts / shorts in Muslim countries. But that's not seen as an issue for some reason. Btw It's not an argument. - it's an observation. I have already stated the main reasons why I believe France is perfectly entitled to create informed national legislation.


  • Options
    #33
    Tin Foil Hat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Tin Foil Hat


    gozunda wrote: »
    No it's not. If someone wishes to take a stand for Muslim women to wear burka them they should also stand up for western women to wear bikinis / teeshirts / shorts in Muslim countries. But that's not seen as an issue for some reason. Btw It's not an argument. - it's an observation. I have already stated the main reasons why I believe France is perfectly entitled to create informed national legislation.

    Right then. Those Medieval, Middle-Eastern Sand-Dunes should allow women to wear t-shirts/shorts/bikinis - Just as we, in the West should allow, women to wear burkas. Freedom! Yay!
    Thank this post if you agree.

    Happy?


  • Options
    #34
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    gozunda wrote: »
    As I said Women visiting many middle eastern countries are banned from wearing bikinis / shorts / tee shirts I don't see to many protesting about that here.

    Muslim in other countries should not have any expectation that they have special exemptions from the laws and customs of those counries.

    A very real case of double standards.

    People should have the right to wear whatever they choose, whether they're in the Middle East or in Europe. The real double standard is when people think banning items of clothing is opposing oppression.


  • Options
    #35
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    Right then. Those Medieval, Middle-Eastern Sand-Dunes should allow women to wear t-shirts/shorts/bikinis - Just as we, in the West should allow, women to wear burkas. Freedom! Yay!
    Thank this post if you agree.

    Happy?

    Missed the point completely? Rather the point is that anyone who wishes to stand up for Muslims to demand the right to have Muslim women to wear Burkas in western countries then should also stand up for the rights of western women to ware what they want in Muslim counties . It's bizarre they never do ...


  • Options
    #36
    Smiles35
    Registered Users Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭Smiles35


    The French are big into getting into each other, even on the public road. It's a culture thing imo.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    The Domonator
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭The Domonator


    1210m5g wrote: »
    I actually own a Burka, i bought one last year for a fancy dress party, i enjoyed wearing it so much i have worn it a few times in the last year.


    Where did you buy it? I'm looking to get one myself.


  • Options
    #38
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    RayM wrote: »
    People should have the right to wear whatever they choose, whether they're in the Middle East or in Europe. The real double standard is when people think banning items of clothing is opposing oppression.


    It depends absolutely why such a law has been passed. In the Middle East women's clothing is proscribed by archaic religous text transcribed into sharia law.

    In France the law as backed by the EU relates to all head coverings not just burkas - but then facts are always the first casualties of such twisted thinking ...


  • Options
    #39
    Tin Foil Hat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Tin Foil Hat


    gozunda wrote: »
    Missed the point completely? Rather the point is that anyone who wishes to stand up for Muslims to demand the right to have Muslim women to wear Burkas in western countries

    You don't have to 'stand up for muslims' to argue that governments should not dictate how people are allowed to dress. You are the one missing the point.
    gozunda wrote: »
    then should also stand up for the rights of western women to ware what they want in Muslim counties. It's bizarre they never do ...

    I just did.


  • Options
    #40
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    gozunda wrote: »
    It depends absolutely why such a law has been passed. In the Middle East women's clothing is proscribed by archaic religous text transcribed into sharia law.

    In France the law as backed by the EU relates to all head coverings not just burkas - but then facts are always the first casualties of such twisted thinking ...

    In both cases, the wearing of the banned items is a victimless crime.


  • Options
    #41
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    You don't have to 'stand up for muslims' to argue that governments should not dictate how people are allowed to dress. You are the one missing the point.

    No you are missing the point. This legislation is about all encompassing head coverings and was ratified by the EU. But yes internet warriors attempting to stirr up issues of 'dress' need to present all the facts and not just jump on a very wonky bandwagon.
    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    I just did.

    Only because I had just made that observation. I have yet to see any threads on Boards advocating for Bikini / Tee shirt /short wearing rights for western women in Muslim countries :rolleyes:


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    RayM wrote: »
    In both cases, the wearing of the banned items is a victimless crime.

    Tell that to Muslim women forced into burkas and other types of clothing under threat of violence and disfigurement.

    In Muslim countries the wearing of 'banned items' will result in very serious punishment and violence.


  • Options
    #43
    Lau2976
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Lau2976


    RayM wrote: »
    In both cases, the wearing of the banned items is a victimless crime.

    By that logic so is wearing a hood, or mask, or helmet, etc. Yet we don't allow that because of safety

    Personal belief means nothing when your out in the street.

    Are you comfortable in a line at the bank with someone covering their faces?


  • Options
    #44
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    Lau2976 wrote: »
    By that logic so is wearing a hood, or mask, or helmet, etc is.

    Are you comfortable in a line at the bank with someone covering their faces?

    No. I think it's absolutely fair to tell people to remove their hoods, masks, helmets (and their burkas) in buildings. I don't think it's fair to tell people what they can and cannot wear on the streets.


  • Options
    #45
    Tin Foil Hat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Tin Foil Hat


    gozunda wrote: »
    No you are missing the point. This legislation is about all encompassing head coverings and was ratified by the EU. But yes internet warriors attempting to stirr up issues of 'dress' need to present all the facts and not just jump on a very wonky bandwagon.

    Bandwagon? That bandwagon where people who live in western countries should not have legislation dictate how they are allowed to dress. That's not a wonky bandwagon. It's a non-existent bandwagon.

    You are delusional if you think that that law was drawn up with anything other that muslims in mind. Otherwise it would effectively ban Halloween parties, ski-masks in the alps, even wearing a hat and a scarf over your face on a cold winter day. It's a law of oppression, oppression of a poisonous idelogy, granted, but oppression none the less.

    You are also delusional if you think that enforcing it would improve the lives of many those who wear them. It could just as easily sentence many of those women to virtual house arrest.


  • Options
    #46
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    RayM wrote: »
    No. I think it's absolutely fair to tell people to remove their hoods, masks, helmets (and their burkas) in buildings. I don't think it's fair to tell people what they can and cannot wear on the streets.

    The French goverment have ruled differently. As it stands the law of the land. All western countries proscribe various freedoms of citizens and visitors in the national interest. I might believe it's not fair that I have to drive on the left but that's the law.


  • Options
    #47
    Bootros Bootros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Bootros Bootros


    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    Bandwagon? That bandwagon where people who live in western countries should not have legislation dictate how they are allowed to dress. That's not a wonky bandwagon. It's a non-existent bandwagon.

    You are delusional if you think that that law was drawn up with anything other that muslims in mind. Otherwise it would effectively ban Halloween parties, ski-masks in the alps, even wearing a hat and a scarf over your face on a cold winter day. It's a law of oppression, oppression of a poisonous idelogy, granted, but oppression none the less.

    You are also delusional if you think that enforcing it would improve the lives of many those who wear them. It could just as easily sentence many of those women to virtual house arrest.

    Ah stop talking through your half educated arse. France had been banning religious attire for decades. Christian for the most part. It's not a new law or specifically targeting islam, France bans or prohibits most religious symbolism in the public sphere.


  • Options
    #48
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    Bandwagon? That bandwagon where people who live in western countries should not have legislation dictate how they are allowed to dress. That's not a wonky bandwagon. It's a non-existent bandwagon.

    Again and again it's not about 'dress' the legislation covers all types of headcovering. Other types of headcovering such as helmets are only worn during specific activities such as driving. The issue with the burka style headdress is that it is worm permanently. Hence it's inclusion in the legislation. Now if someone wishes to wear a long robe or dress - that is not an issue under french legislation.
    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    You are delusional if you think that that law was drawn up with anything other that muslims in mind. Otherwise it would effectively ban Halloween parties, ski-masks in the alps, even wearing a hat and a scarf over your face on a cold winter day. It's a law of oppression, oppression of a poisonous idelogy, granted, but oppression none the less.

    Getting personal much! Anyway have you actually read the legislation? From that little diatribe I reckon you have not. See the first paragraph as why the burka is included in that legislation.
    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    You are also delusional if you think that enforcing it would improve the lives of many those who wear them. It could just as easily sentence many of those women to virtual house arrest.

    Personal again :rolleyes: of interest - house arrest by who? I was not aware that forced domestic house arrest in France was legal either!


  • Options
    #49
    Tin Foil Hat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Tin Foil Hat


    Bootros Bootros wrote: »
    Ah stop talking through your half educated arse. France had been banning religious attire for decades. Christian for the most part. It's not a new law or specifically targeting islam, France bans or prohibits most religious symbolism in the public sphere.

    So, nuns are not banned from wearing the Habit? Priests are not allowed to wear the collar? A random French person is banned from wearing a crucifix with an open necked shirt?
    Bullsh!t.
    Also, the burqa is not so much religious as it is cultural.


  • Options
    #50
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    gozunda wrote: »
    The French goverment have ruled differently. As it stands the law of the land. All western countries proscribe various freedoms of citizens and visitors in the national interest. I might believe it's not fair that I have to drive on the left but that's the law.

    Not sure how the national interest is served by depriving people of the right to wear whatever they choose.


  • Options
    #51
    hfallada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭hfallada


    Yes France should be allowed to ban. Like the way they forbid students entering a school with a crucifix around their neck.

    The Burka is a new thing for muslims and is a sign of oppression. Look at old pictures of Iran before the revolution and you will see women wearing clothes that would be considered risky in Ireland. But now women have to wear head scarves and cover it. They arent doing it because of their religion, but because they are forced to do it. Even Turkey had bans on head scarves in some Government buildings.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    RayM wrote: »
    Not sure how the national interest is served by depriving people of the right to wear whatever they choose.

    You havn't been paying attention have you? It's nothing to do with "depriving people of the right to wear whatever they chose". It is everything to do with prohibiting headcoverings and national legislation. Rant on.


  • Options
    #53
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    gozunda wrote: »
    You havn't been paying attention have you? It's nothing to do with "depriving people of the right to wear whatever they chose". It is everything to do with prohibiting all headcoverings and national legislation. Rant on.

    I have been paying attention. And I find it really interesting that some people get so riled up over what other people wear...


  • Options
    #54
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    RayM wrote: »
    I have been paying attention. And I find it really interesting that some people get so riled up over what other people wear...

    So muslim men should be allowed to force their female relations to wear certain articles of clothing then?


  • Options
    #55
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    RayM wrote: »
    I have been paying attention. And I find it really interesting that some people get so riled up over what other people wear...

    It would appear otherwise. But indeed - as to getting 'riled up' so it would seem. :rolleyes: However I remain entrigued why anyone would argue against the actual facts of the right of a country to enact legislation in the national interest.

    Whatever - It is unfortunate that these type of blinkered arguments actually encourage violence and law breaking and to increased demands for segregation and special treatment by specific religious groups.


  • Options
    #56
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,243 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    This topic was argued to destruction on this thread.

    Just to be clear France didn't specifically ban the Burqa.
    Here is the relevant section of the law.
    section 1
    No one shall, in any public space, wear clothing designed to conceal the face.

    section 2
    I For the purposes of the application of the foregoing section, the public space shall be composed of the public highway and all premises open to the public or used for the provision of a public service.

    II The prohibition set forth in section 1 hereinabove shall not apply if such clothing is prescribed by law or regulations, is justified on medical or professional grounds or is worn in the context of sporting practices, festivities, or artistic or traditional events.

    Here's the ECHR ruling on the matter.
    Conorh91 wrote:
    Instead, the European Court of Human Rights said the ban was a proportionate response to the legitimate aim of "living together", an element of protecting and preserving the rights of others.
    The barrier raised against others by a concealing veil could be seen as breaching the right of others to live in a space of socialisation which made living together easier.


  • Options
    #57
    The Bould Rabbit
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 423 ✭✭The Bould Rabbit


    France should be allowed to do whatever France wants to do.

    In France.


  • Options
    #58
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    I don't think they should have been banned, I do think they should have been allowed to ban it though. Thats because I don't really think France liberal in the true meaning of the word, they have a lot of laws concerning speech, mandatory ID cards, heavy handed police (including gendamerie, who by definition are a semi militarized force ) , a strong emphasis on the centralized state and bureaucracy and a history of brutal colonialism that runs well into the 20th century.
    IMO instead of Liberté, égalité, fraternité being equal this is the order égalité > fraternité > liberté


  • Options
    #59
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    The Bould Rabbit wrote: »
    France should be allowed to do whatever France wants to do.

    In France.

    Hmmmm so basically your saying the state has the right to dictate to its citizens into their personal lives because it can (or because thats what a previous referendum has stated). Can I hold you to that opinion in a Same Sex Marriage or Abortion thread then :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #60
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Hmmmm so basically your saying the state has the right to dictate to its citizens into their personal lives because it can (or because thats what a previous referendum has stated). Can I hold you to that opinion in a Same Sex Marriage or Abortion thread then :rolleyes:

    No this is a security and cultural issue. Irish teachers said it would be unworkable in the class room and for exams. If you dont like it either change the law or more preferable find another country. More likely ... if you are wearing a burka you are not really Irish. If you have come to Ireland to agitiate and stir get back on the boat from whence you came. The abortion and same sex marriage acts are being reviewed and are both delicate issues. This is something alien and unworkable in this country.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    The Bould Rabbit
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 423 ✭✭The Bould Rabbit


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Hmmmm so basically your saying the state has the right to dictate to its citizens into their personal lives because it can (or because thats what a previous referendum has stated). Can I hold you to that opinion in a Same Sex Marriage or Abortion thread then :rolleyes:

    I quoted the thread title above my post under the assumption that it would illustrate my point - Maybe posing a question of it may bring more clarity.

    Who is going to tell France what laws France is 'allowed' to pass for the citizens of France?

    The Irish?


Advertisement