Do you think alcoholism, drug abuse is just downright selfish?

GerB40

rosedream wrote: »

This may seem harsh when I never had to be in that position. People do say that alcoholism is a disease and that people might have had some horrible demons to turn to illegal activity like drugs.

But at what point do you think that the person is just a selfish person, even when you give them all the help in the world?
It's just that I really don't understand how they cannot get through their heads how much the habit affects everyone in the family, and then the family are considered the horrid ones for just eventually cutting that person out. I mean I do think there is only so much you can do for a person and their issues, but if they are not willing to meet you halfway, then what's the point of putting up with that pain?

It's just that I get that people have their demons, but at the same time, no one should have to handle that type of behaviour if the addict cannot see how much it affects everyone.

Edit: I have an alcoholic relative, so I have heard the stories and seen the effects it has on other our family members, including myself. At this stage after all these years, if they want to drink themselves to death, fine by me. Harsh, but in fairness, they had received the best of the best medical treatment 3 times, which some alkies couldn't afford, only to fcuk it up each time after they finished treatment.

I'm an alcoholic. Sober 8 months today actually and I'm very proud of myself, a feeling I haven't had in around 10 years..

Regarding selfishness, you're actually right. Addiction is selfish in it's very nature. But as an addict it's all but impossible to recognise this. When all that's going through your mind is how to get your next drink it's too easy to miss how you're affecting other people.

Usually an addict will hit rock bottom and have a moment of clarity. This is when they decide to either get help or not. Although you might be misinformed about addiction I can assure you, no addict goes out of their way to hurt those around them. It does happen but like I said, when there's only one thing on their mind it's just another tragic symptom of addiction.

As for your alcoholic relative, it sounds like he/she has already hit rock bottom and decided against help. It's tragic but the only person who can truly help an addict is the addict themselves.

If you have any questions about addiction feel free to ask. I mightn't have the answers you're looking for but if you learn even one thing then that'll do in my opinion..

Todd Toddington III

GerB40 wrote: »

I'm an alcoholic. Sober 8 months today actually and I'm very proud of myself, a feeling I haven't had in around 10 years..

Regarding selfishness, you're actually right. Addiction is selfish in it's very nature. But as an addict it's all but impossible to recognise this. When all that's going through your mind is how to get your next drink it's too easy to miss how you're affecting other people.

Usually an addict will hit rock bottom and have a moment of clarity. This is when they decide to either get help or not. Although you might be misinformed about addiction I can assure you, no addict goes out of their way to hurt those around them. It does happen but like I said, when there's only one thing on their mind it's just another tragic symptom of addiction.

As for your alcoholic relative, it sounds like he/she has already hit rock bottom and decided against help. It's tragic but the only person who can truly help an addict is the addict themselves.

If you have any questions about addiction feel free to ask. I mightn't have the answers you're looking for but if you learn even one thing then that'll do in my opinion..

Well done

Todd Toddington III

Boskowski wrote: »

Id love to get stoned/drunk every day and do only stuff I'm in the humour to do. instead of working all week and doing things I'm expected to do.

Do I have an addictive personality?

no, no you dont. You do come across as a fuc¥in smartarse though

Immaculata

While I have a lot of compassion for people who are addicts or alcoholics, I think that there are elements of selfishness to the life of an addict/alcoholic. While active, they do, to some degree, gain enjoyment, or at least numbness to whatever is bothering them, from it and they do prioritize themselves rather than considering themselves equal to, say, their husband or wife or kids in importance.

Addiction/alcoholism is different from purely physical illnesses like diabetes or cancer in that the cure is in the addict or alcoholic's power. No person with cancer can be guaranteed that if he or she sticks to the treatment plan, he or she will definitely survive. It's actually a good thing that addicts and alcoholics are at least partly responsible for their own situation of addiction or alcoholism, as it means he or she has the power to do something about it.

the evasion_kid

From the national history of alcoholism,probably the most in depth look at alcoholism:

"Vaillant argues that an important contribution health professionals can make is to explain alcoholism to patients as a disease,[60] which encourages the patient to take responsibility for their problem without debilitating guilt, in the same way that a diabetic becomes responsible for proper self care when they become aware of their condition"

One eyed Jack

estudent wrote: »

You're speaking as someone with experience of course.

If you're under privileged, the only help you have is yourself.
As a privileged person, you have what ever help you need.

Try being an unemployed addict with no family and look for help, you'll end up dead.
The HSE won't help you. Sure, they'll offer you some counseling and suggest AA/NA and that's about it. The therapy provided by professionals is kept for wealthy people.

You're making some terrible generalisations there, as alcoholism and drug addiction can happen to a person regardless of their circumstances, and because every person's individual circumstances are different, the help they receive is actually more dependent on their own willingness to help themselves and how much they have been affected by their self-afflicted conditions.

Wealthy people can afford private health care, but there's no guarantee it will be any more effective than public healthcare (the only real difference of course is the cost), but there are numerous free resources out there for people who actually want help to change their behaviour and break their addictions.

With regard to the question in the OP as to whether alcohol and drug addicts are selfish, I happen to believe they are, because when they're at the stage when they cannot function without their alcohol or drug of choice, then they disregard the consequences for other people of their actions, which is the very definition of selfish behaviour - satisfying their own needs before others.

Calling addiction a disease is a misnomer in my opinion which doesn't do anything to tackle the underlying causes of the behaviour, but in my opinion carries the risk of allowing the destructive behaviour of an individual to become socially acceptable, it shifts the responsibility for the behaviour onto society which does nothing to address the behaviour in order to tackle the underlying causes of the addictive behaviour.

Venus In Furs

newmug wrote: »

OP, this is Boards, so you will get the PC brigade, tree hugging, bleeding heart view on everything.

God damn those compassionate people who think things through!

Of course addicts are selfish. Nobody forced them to take their first drink / drug etc. There is a reason why drugs are illegal, ie they are addictive, and will cause a lot of hardship to people either trying to feed their habit, or trying to give it up. And before someone says "sure drink causes the most harm of all" - yes, it does! And it is only about as addictive as coffee!

Well the illegal argument is null and void when it comes to alcohol - and it is extremely addictive to those who become dependent on it.
And the argument that nobody forced addicts to take their first drink/drug is very spurious, seeing as most people who do so, don't become addicts/abusers of said substance/can't see into the future. Do you drink?
Drugs aren't addictive for everyone who takes them, same with drink.

WRT alcoholics, there is obviously some other underlying mental issues, alcohol is not that addictive at all. Again, the state should be stepping in here to provide psychiatric help.

On what do you base alcohol not being that addictive? I would say it's more addictive than illegal substances, seeing as it is more readily available and more of an intrinsic part of social life.

Letree

For those that don't like the disease label think of it as a severe mental illness. These people are definitely sick. Calling a severe addiction selfish is unfair. Their mental illness can and does kill them.

Greenmachine

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

Absolute ignorance of knowledge on a subject is no excuse. Look up what an addictive personality is, you might be surprised to discover it is actually something, not a cop out

http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/committee/371/ille/presentation/alexender-e.htm

One eyed Jack

Letree wrote: »

For those that don't like the disease label think of it as a severe mental illness. These people are definitely sick. Calling a severe addiction selfish is unfair. Their mental illness can and does kill them.

No, I don't think it's appropriate to think of addictive behaviour as a mental illness either. By that standard, everyone could be considered to be mentally ill as most people are prone to repeditive behaviour which is the very essence of addictive behaviour.

It might not be fair to you to refer to addictive behaviour that causes the person or other persons harm as selfish, but it is what it is, and suggesting that it's unfair to label it as such is in effect excusing the behaviour, when in order to tackle the behaviour effectively and to tackle the underlying causes of the behaviour, we as a society have to hold individuals responsible for their behaviour, so that they understand that their behaviour isn't appropriate, and is not tolerated and accepted by society as it causes harm to themselves and others.

Is it "fair" that their behaviour causes harm to themselves and other people? Their behaviour is what kills them, not the underlying cause of their behaviour, which is what we should be tackling rather than just how it manifests itself.

Todd Toddington III

Greenmachine wrote: »

http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/committee/371/ille/presentation/alexender-e.htm

Did you read that or did you pick the first officially looking doc you found off google? Because that talks about drug induced addiction, I said go look up addictive personality.

Edit: and wtf does linking one paper mean exactly? Argument over ive bloody one? The fact that the medical profession are still debating this issue must have been lost on you when you hit the "jackpot" with that find

Greenmachine

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

Did you read that or did you pick the first officially looking doc you found off google? Because that talks about drug induced addiction, I said go look up addictive personality.

Edit: and wtf does linking one paper mean exactly? Argument over ive bloody one? The fact that the medical profession are still debating this issue must have been lost on you when you hit the "jackpot" with that find

What do you want my to write a PHD thesis? So the fact the medical profession are still debating the issue support your position? Really, and you think this debate is lost on me. Oh the irony.

estudent

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're making some terrible generalisations there, as alcoholism and drug addiction can happen to a person regardless of their circumstances, and because every person's individual circumstances are different, the help they receive is actually more dependent on their own willingness to help themselves and how much they have been affected by their self-afflicted conditions.

I'm not generalizing at all.
Wealthy people receive a far superior level of health care than someone on welfare.
I myself was able to see a psychologist within weeks privately but while on medical card it took months.

If you go to your GP as a private patient and request a psychologist, you get seen within 2 weeks. As a welfare recipient, you get sent to a community mental health team and because of waiting lists, sent to a mental health nurse who tries to put you on drugs.

That's the reality. PM me and I'll gladly show you how bad HSE are dealing with addictions and people with mental health problems.

A psychologist for welfare recipient takes 6+ months.
CBT takes 8+ months. In fact, they will not even accept you unless drugged.

If you go private for either service, you'll be seen in weeks irrespective your drug abuse.
Go as welfare recipient, you'll wait months and potentially end up dead which is what happens to many.

Calling addiction a disease is a misnomer in my opinion which doesn't do anything to tackle the underlying causes of the behaviour, but in my opinion carries the risk of allowing the destructive behaviour of an individual to become socially acceptable, it shifts the responsibility for the behaviour onto society which does nothing to address the behaviour in order to tackle the underlying causes of the addictive behaviour.

Precisely. It's the HSE that considers Addiction to be a disease so they offer pharmaceutical drugs like anti-psychotics and anti-depressants and hope the person seeking help will just go away.

You might think this is all BS but I've talked to many consultants and nurses in HSE and they all say the same thing. If you're welfare recipient with addictions, you either stop your addiction voluntarily without any help or you'll end up dead.

Got money? No problem, we have lots of services for you...that's the way is.

estudent

Another thing addiction counselors in HSE like to do apart from get you on some anti-psychotic or anti-depressant is have you voluntarily admit yourself to psychiatric unit.

Just like the 50s, 60s..nothing has changed.

Boskowski

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

no, no you dont. You do come across as a fuc¥in smartarse though

I realize I (sometimes) do. I can't help it though. I have a smartarsy personality.

All messing aside I do realise I don't know a thing about personality disorders and my opinion is probably a bit ignorant. I promise I will read up on those things. Its quite interesting, too.

Bobeagleburger

Is addiction a disease though?

Or a symptom of an illness? Eg, depression

pragmatic1

If you have kids and dependents to look after, then yeah it is pretty selfish. Having said that, people in the depths of addiction aren't always thinking rationally.

For people that don't have their own families, I don't think it's selfish. You only get one life and it's up to you how you spend it.

Todd Toddington III

Greenmachine wrote: »

What do you want my to write a PHD thesis? So the fact the medical profession are still debating the issue support your position? Really, and you think this debate is lost on me. Oh the irony.

No I want you to read up on it and stop responding to me with your nonsense. Why would I want a thesis, from you even, wtf are you trying to prove by saying that exactly? An ongoing debate on the issue lends credence to there actually being such a condition. Oh the stupidity

bb1234567

I don't think you have a right to say what it is unless you've suffered from it yourself. Its like asking if cancer is really as awful as sufferers say it is.

sheesh

Selfishness comes with addiction as the addict will only think of getting their fix. Everything else is secondary.

the selfishness is a result of addiction not the cause.

Soft Falling Rain

estudent wrote: »

You're speaking as someone with experience of course.

If you're under privileged, the only help you have is yourself.
As a privileged person, you have what ever help you need.

Try being an unemployed addict with no family and look for help, you'll end up dead.
The HSE won't help you. Sure, they'll offer you some counseling and suggest AA/NA and that's about it. The therapy provided by professionals is kept for wealthy people.

Whatever background one is from will not help them if they fall deep enough into alcoholism.

Family.

Money.

Health.

Addiction will take it all, and that's irrelevant to whether you're the guy who had all the breaks or the chap who didn't. Someone can throw all the money they want at private health care for therapy but if they're in deep enough it won't make much of a difference.

It's just one of those rare things that makes you realise that when you strip everything away, that we're all the same at the end of the day, all susceptible to go off course in our lives.

I don't like using the term disease but I certainly feel that addiction is a serious mental health problem. Look at the junkie on the street shuffling around aimlessly. No-one chooses a life like that, and it's not a simple case of flicking a switch and saying "you know what, I'm done with this, no more crack for me!"

Addiction is simply too complicated to dismiss as selfishness.

Greenmachine

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

No I want you to read up on it and stop responding to me with your nonsense. Why would I want a thesis, from you even, wtf are you trying to prove by saying that exactly? An ongoing debate on the issue lends credence to there actually being such a condition. Oh the stupidity

It does nothing of the sort. I have read plenty on it from both side, and I am not convinced of your position. You are welcome to try and prove your point. Simply scoffing and calling me ignorant is a ridiculous defense. There would be no need for debate if there was enough evidence to conclusively prove your position.

Here is something for you to look up, "Confirmation bias"

GerB40

sheesh wrote: »

Selfishness comes with addiction as the addict will only think of getting their fix. Everything else is secondary.

the selfishness is a result of addiction not the cause.

Perfectly put..

ghogie91

I think your view of addiction is small minded and ignorant

The human brain is so highly complex that a vice such as alcoholism or drug addiction is truly complex when it has the ability to over power rational thinking. To simplify this to 'selfishness' is absolutely ridiculous.

GerB40

ghogie91 wrote: »

I think your view of addiction is small minded and ignorant

The human brain is so highly complex that a vice such as alcoholism or drug addiction is truly complex when it has the ability to over power rational thinking. To simplify this to 'selfishness' is absolutely ridiculous.

To be fair, I had similar views on addiction until I became an addict myself. Some people just don't understand it, simple as that. I think the OP might be a bit more enlightened since starting the thread, some of the comments explain addiction pretty well..