Do you think alcoholism, drug abuse is just downright selfish?

Todd Toddington III

yipeeeee wrote: »

No sorry you're taking me up wrong.

Im saying people's state of mind can't be helped, i agree with you.

Depression is a horrible illness, wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Ya ok, I get u now. Tnx 4 the clarification

yipeeeee

zanador wrote: »

I think we draw the line at people's actions. So, if someone is a paedophile and born that way it's not a problem. If they act on their urges then it becomes a problem.

Same with addicts.

estudent

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Indeed. It really brings up the whole "free will is an illusion" idea.

Do humans actually have control over their own actions, or do they just think they do? It's not completely clear.

Scientists always look at the symptoms. They're not stupid but they are somewhat ignorant of reality perhaps because they lived a sheltered life.

I'm not a scientist but I don't believe it's a disease at all, I believe it's a choice but there are underlying reasons why someone might abuse a drug.

I've attended AA and NA and even though a lot of members will argue "it's a disease" ..that's just a way to avoid dealing with the real reason they abuse drugs (incl. alcohol)

Treating drug addiction as a "disease" is actually leading to many suicides in this country because the HSE refuse to acknowledge why a person abuses drugs in the first place.

Boskowski

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Tell that to my OCD, I know exactly what I'm doing yet can't stop it.

But you didn't buy your ocd in a shop and gradually increased it to a point where you couldn't stop buying it.

Sorry people are being educated about the dangers of drugs including alcohol.

So if you insist on building yourself up to daily abuse anyway you can hardly call it something that 'was in you' and you never had a chance to do something about.

It's a cop out

Macavity.

rosedream wrote: »

What about partners, families, extended families, friends, and workmates? Heck, even the junkies and alkies who seem to roam the streets alone still affect others by pestering people for money and making them uncomfortable in case a mugging was about to happen.

A functioning alcoholic who is not in a relationship and with limited family may not necessarily be hurting anyone (other than themselves). People seem to have the idea that alcoholics are degenerates that are abusive and loiter the streets looking for spare change. Not everything is black and white.

darkpagandeath

Boskowski wrote: »

But you didn't buy your ocd in a shop and gradually increased it to a point where you couldn't stop buying it.

Sorry people are being educated about the dangers of drugs including alcohol.

So if you insist on building yourself up to daily abuse anyway you can hardly call it something that 'was in you' and you never had a chance to do something about.

It's a cop out

So I guess you have no idea what an addictive personality is then ?

Kiwi in IE

rosedream wrote: »

What about partners, families, extended families, friends, and workmates? Heck, even the junkies and alkies who seem to roam the streets alone still affect others by pestering people for money and making them uncomfortable in case a mugging was about to happen.

Yeah homeless people with addiction problems are the most selfish of all. They don't give any thought to the poor people who might feel uncomfortable having to see them in public places. Selfish bastards!

estudent

Boskowski wrote: »

But you didn't buy your ocd in a shop and gradually increased it to a point where you couldn't stop buying it.

Sorry people are being educated about the dangers of drugs including alcohol.

So if you insist on building yourself up to daily abuse anyway you can hardly call it something that 'was in you' and you never had a chance to do something about.

It's a cop out

I agree but what isn't being addressed is WHY those people are compelled to abuse substances.

Many people abuse substances to escape reality. They can be sexual, physical, mental abuse victims that can't function.

Who am I to say someone who abuses substances has a "disease"?
What is the cure for this "disease"? More drugs? Like pharmaceutical drugs?

SMJSF

I'm a daughter of an alcoholic, went into care, etc. It is not a disease, it's definitely selfish. In the past years I loved my mum, but now I blame her for choosing drink over me. That might sound childish, but it's my feelings. And yes this will sound bad, but personally I think her dying would be better for her, and everyone else.
I don't see her as my mum, just more of a nuisance... I seem to always feel angry ando upset after talking to her (phone), and is emotionally draining.

that's just how I feel and my experiences.

Pwindedd

I can imagine that to those affected by the actions or behaviour of an addict it can appear very selfish and uncaring. I also though can imagine it from the addicts view and I know I wouldn't like to ever have to go through it myself. I would imagine there's a fair bit of self-loathing and misery involved.

It's shît for everyone involved.

estudent

SMJSF wrote: »

I'm a daughter of an alcoholic, went into care, etc. It is not a disease, it's definitely selfish. In the past years I loved my mum, but now I blame her for choosing drink over me. That might sound childish, but it's my feelings. And yes this will sound bad, but personally I think her dying would be better for her, and everyone else.
I don't see her as my mum, just more of a nuisance... I seem to always feel angry ando upset after talking to her (phone), and is emotionally draining.

that's just how I feel and my experiences.

Did you ever discover WHY your mother abused alcohol?

Boskowski

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So I guess you have no idea what an addictive personality is then ?

I guess not no. I think it's a cop out.

I also believe that calling addiction a disease is enabling addicts.

But I concede that I'm not educated on the matter and that my opinion may be a bit ignorant.

Greenmachine

Boskowski wrote: »

I guess not no. I think it's a cop out.

I also believe that calling addiction a disease is enabling addicts.

But I concede that I'm not educated on the matter and that my opinion may be a bit ignorant.

Absolutely it is a cop out.

SMJSF

estudent wrote:

Did you ever discover WHY your mother abused alcohol?

nobody really knows - it started when she was a teen, so it could have something to do with her mother dying possibly (she died when she was around 11).... she denies having a drink problem.
but I didn't come along until she was 40, so (thankfully) I'm not the reason!

Todd Toddington III

estudent wrote: »

I agree but what isn't being addressed is WHY those people are compelled to abuse substances.

Many people abuse substances to escape reality. They can be sexual, physical, mental abuse victims that can't function.

Who am I to say someone who abuses substances has a "disease"?
What is the cure for this "disease"? More drugs? Like pharmaceutical drugs?

I used to love drinking before i stopped and it had nothing to do with anything you mention. Same with cigarettes before that and my vaping pipe now. I just cannot put it down. Its my personality type. I stopped the booze cos it got to a stage where I was getting blackout drunk when I went out and as I work shift, on weekdays I was off and the missus was in bed, a bottle of wine a night was no problem to me. Dunno if everyone can make this choice. Having an addictive personality means anything can hook you. Had similar problems with online gaming (mw2) and online poker too, it just takes over your life. I have to be careful, not everyone has been so lucky

Wabbit Ears

estudent wrote: »

Did you ever discover WHY your mother abused alcohol?

Knowing WHY would change absolutely nothing so why seek to know the answer to that question. It would'nt change what she did to her family and what if the answer to the WHY was she was just a really ****ty person and they all went through it for nothing?

Todd Toddington III

estudent wrote: »

Did you ever discover WHY your mother abused alcohol?

Maybe they did, its probably none of your business though

estudent

Greenmachine wrote: »

Absolutely it is a cop out.

Calling it an outright "cop out" is a bit ignorant.

I'll give you a simple example.

I knew a man who was physically abused and neglected by his parents, both alcoholics.
He developed a self-loathing because of how he was treated and as he grew became very self-destructive.

Always in trouble with the law, in jail, abusing drugs/alcohol, attempted suicide number of occasions (which he eventually succeeded)

This wasn't someone with a disease but it wasn't a cop out either because when he looked for help, he was told he had a chemical imbalance

He hanged himself in the end but not because of a chemical imbalance, it was because nobody would listen to him.

Anyone can find themselves in that situation. Don't be quick to judge.

rosedream

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Yeah homeless people with addiction problems are the most selfish of all. They don't give any thought to the poor people who might feel uncomfortable having to see them in public places. Selfish bastards!

I am not talking about people who look at the homeless and the addicts on the street as a "eye sore".
I am talking about people who have the addicts hassling them and becoming aggressive. Seen one drunken guy at the station following a man through the station to his lift, hurling abuse at him.

Anyway I am talking about addicts, not the homeless. I have dealt with homeless people, and they have never asked anything from me, just a simple hi and a chat if you had the time. Also they never come across as having an addiction issues.

Wabbit Ears

estudent wrote: »

Calling it an outright "cop out" is a bit ignorant.

I'll give you a simple example.

I knew a man who was physically abused and neglected by his parents, both alcoholics.
He developed a self-loathing for himself because of how he was treated and as he grew became very self-destructive.

Always in trouble with the law, in jail, abusing drugs/alcohol, attempted suicide number of occasions (which he eventually succeeded)

This wasn't someone with a disease but it wasn't a cop out either because when he looked for help, he was told he had a chemical imbalance

He hanged himself in the end but not because of a chemical imbalance, it was because nobody would listen to him.

Anyone can find themselves in that situation. Don't be quick to judge.

I have no idea what the moral of that story is supposed to be?

Todd Toddington III

Greenmachine wrote: »

Absolutely it is a cop out.

Absolute ignorance of knowledge on a subject is no excuse. Look up what an addictive personality is, you might be surprised to discover it is actually something, not a cop out

estudent

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

I have no idea what the moral of that story is supposed to be?

Moral of the story? ..what did you glean from that story? I have dozens more.
Don't be ****ing stupid, is that close enough for you?

piperh

If I have that extra donut I know it's no good for me, if I smoke a joint I know it's no good for me the same as the 4th can of lager. If I know the consequences and still choose to do it of course it's selfish.

Nobody in this day and age are naive to the dangers or the addictiveness of these things. The only people who say dope is not addictive are the users, the same people who say it's better or no worse than alcohol. They are deluding themselves and treating others like fools.

I have an addictive personality myself and I lived with an alcoholic but when I decided I wanted children realised things had to change. Yes I believe addicts are selfish but rarely do they see it and even rarer can they be made to see it or change.

Wabbit Ears

estudent wrote: »

Moral of the story? ..what did you glean from that story? I have dozens more.
Don't be ****ing stupid, is that close enough for you?

I gleaned that, rather then learn how his parents being alcoholics ruined his life he chose to follow in his parents footsteps rather then follow his own path, which eventually killed him.

Boskowski

estudent wrote: »

I agree but what isn't being addressed is WHY those people are compelled to abuse substances.

Many people abuse substances to escape reality. They can be sexual, physical, mental abuse victims that can't function.

Who am I to say someone who abuses substances has a "disease"?
What is the cure for this "disease"? More drugs? Like pharmaceutical drugs?

Id love to get stoned/drunk every day and do only stuff I'm in the humour to do. instead of working all week and doing things I'm expected to do.

Do I have an addictive personality?

HalloweenJack

I come from a family of several alcoholics so I'm speaking from second-hand experience.

I don't think it's selfishness, though I think selfishness is a manifestation of it in some way. Honestly, I feel that alcoholics need sympathy and help. I can understand people getting fed up with alcoholics who don't improve (I've done this myself to one family member) but I think it's more of a case of genuinely not wanting or just not having the strength to change. Not all alcoholics are like this but there are a fair few.

estudent

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Knowing WHY would change absolutely nothing so why seek to know the answer to that question. It would'nt change what she did to her family and what if the answer to the WHY was she was just a really ****ty person and they all went through it for nothing?

Simply dismissing drug addiction as a "disease" is one of the most retarded things I observe in modern day society.

Drug addiction is not a disease and the symptoms of drug addiction should not be treated as diseases either.

Years ago, people suffering from alcoholism were locked up in mental hospitals only to be abused by the people that worked there and yet you want to perpetuate the same policy?

estudent

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

I gleaned that, rather then learn how his parents being alcoholics ruined his life he chose to follow in his parents footsteps rather then follow his own path, which eventually killed him.

He was treated as someone with a "chemical imbalance" when it was purely psychological.
Had he been privileged enough, he'd probably still be alive.

Unfortunately he was poor and couldn't afford good healthcare, depending instead on public services which is why he's dead.

Wabbit Ears

estudent wrote: »

He was treated as someone with a "chemical imbalance" when it was purely psychological.
Had he been privileged enough, he'd probably still be alive.

Unfortunately he was poor and couldn't afford good healthcare, depending instead on public services which is why he's dead.

He killed himself for a lot more complex reason than that. Thats probably on billionth of his reasoning for killing himself, being generous with numeric guestimates.


Alcoholism doesn' distinguish between social classes..

estudent

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

He killed himself for a lot more complex reason than that. Thats probably on billionth of his reasoning for killing himself, being generous with numeric guestimates.


Alcoholism doesn' distinguish between social classes..

You're speaking as someone with experience of course.

If you're under privileged, the only help you have is yourself.
As a privileged person, you have what ever help you need.

Try being an unemployed addict with no family and look for help, you'll end up dead.
The HSE won't help you. Sure, they'll offer you some counseling and suggest AA/NA and that's about it. The therapy provided by professionals is kept for wealthy people.