Do you think alcoholism, drug abuse is just downright selfish?

rosedream

This may seem harsh when I never had to be in that position. People do say that alcoholism is a disease and that people might have had some horrible demons to turn to illegal activity like drugs.

But at what point do you think that the person is just a selfish person, even when you give them all the help in the world?
It's just that I really don't understand how they cannot get through their heads how much the habit affects everyone in the family, and then the family are considered the horrid ones for just eventually cutting that person out. I mean I do think there is only so much you can do for a person and their issues, but if they are not willing to meet you halfway, then what's the point of putting up with that pain?

It's just that I get that people have their demons, but at the same time, no one should have to handle that type of behaviour if the addict cannot see how much it affects everyone.

Edit: I have an alcoholic relative, so I have heard the stories and seen the effects it has on other our family members, including myself. At this stage after all these years, if they want to drink themselves to death, fine by me, but I just don't want to know about it anymore. Harsh, but in fairness, they had received the best of the best medical treatment 3 times, which some alkies couldn't afford, only to fcuk it up each time after they finished treatment.

Kiwi in IE

People who suffer from addiction are very, very selfish! Just like people with diabetes and heart disease.

Sheep Lover

Course it's not, I always give the kids the dregs of me cans. How's that selfish?

rosedream

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

People who suffer from addiction are very, very selfish! Just like people with diabetes and heart disease.

In fairness that is completely different, in terms of how they affect other people. I mean a diabetic injecting themselves with insulin is not in the same league as someone who steals money from their family to keep shooting heroin.

milltown

Any addicts or alcoholics I have met know exactly how destructive it is and bear no ill will against the friends and family who ran out of patience with them. They know exactly what they should and shouldn't be doing but they literally can't help themselves. It's like an inbuilt self destruct instinct.

I struggle with the "disease" definition a bit too, but the problem is a lot deeper than selfishness.

Highflyer13

As someone who has seen the effects of alcohol closely I would say yes it is selfish. The people I am talking about refuse to acknowledge or accept they have a problem despite warnings and interventions. They don't give a s**t about the destruction they caused.

Kiwi in IE

rosedream wrote: »

In fairness that is completely different, in terms of how they affect other people. I mean a diabetic injecting themselves with insulin is not in the same league as someone who steals money from their family to keep shooting heroin.

I was being facetious! No people with addiction issues are not selfish and they are not doing it intentionally to piss other people off. They are not able to control their addiction.

ireland.man

Alcoholism, drug abuse, suicide, cutting, etc, are far, far too complex to be reduced down to 'selfishness'. The consequences for those around the person are often horrific and so it's 100% understandable why loved ones get frustrated, angry and sometimes lash out at the person but, no, you can't start a thread to finally decide if drug abusers, etc, are selfish in some objective sense.

Maybe a thread asking if people have suffered at the hands of a substance abuser and how they dealt with that might be more sensitive and helpful for people.

Boskowski

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

People who suffer from addiction are very, very selfish! Just like people with diabetes and heart disease.

We continue to absolve ourselves from any responsibility for our actions. Everything is a condition, a disease these days. its a cop out.

Jawgap

rosedream wrote: »

In fairness that is completely different, in terms of how they affect other people. I mean a diabetic injecting themselves with insulin is not in the same league as someone who steals money from their family to keep shooting heroin.

Both are suffering from a disease - the only difference is the State recognises diabetes as such and has treatment programmes / facilities in place.

In a significant number of cases addicts are denied proper treatment for their disease (methadone is more about maintenance than treatment) and that leads to consequential problems for society.

Annasopra

Boskowski wrote: »

We continue to absolve ourselves from any responsibility for our actions. Everything is a condition, a disease these days. its a cop out.

Its not a cop out if they genuinely cant help themselves which many cant.

darkpagandeath

Boskowski wrote: »

We continue to absolve ourselves from any responsibility for our actions. Everything is a condition, a disease these days. its a cop out.

Tell that to my OCD, I know exactly what I'm doing yet can't stop it.

Henlars67

Depends on the addict's circumstances.

If they have a family who are suffering as a result then ya, they are selfish.

But if they're a single person living alone, then no, they aren't

Noobascious

I'm an alcohol but I'm not selfish I give money and stuff to the poor :-p

I've never trusted the majority of my friends and anyway they always had other friends to hang out with. So alcohol is my only friend now. Happy out

Family are always trying to construe my addiction as some sort major problem but they create the problems. Ie ran out of money don't get paid monthly - give us a loan of twenty euro for drink - duck off - q me going ape**** cos I'm already a bit drunk- they fuking well have the money and know the reaction they'll get from me. Recording me on their iPhones to show when I'm sober what an asshole I'd been. Niggas please

SEPT 23 1989

Noobascious wrote: »

I'm an alcohol but I'm not selfish I give money and stuff to the poor :-p

I've never trusted the majority of my friends and anyway they always had other friends to hang out with. So alcohol is my only friend now. Happy out

Family are always trying to construe my addiction as some sort major problem but they create the problems. Ie ran out of money don't get paid monthly - give us a loan of twenty euro for drink - duck off - q me going ape**** cos I'm already a bit drunk- they fuking well have the money and know the reaction they'll get from me. Recording me on their iPhones to show when I'm sober what an asshole I'd been. Niggas please

Thats the spirit dont let them drag you down

Todd Toddington III

Boskowski wrote: »

We continue to absolve ourselves from any responsibility for our actions. Everything is a condition, a disease these days. its a cop out.

Whats your opinion on depression then? Are they being selfish too with all their negative thoughts and being sad? Sure theyre probably making it up the selfish ba$taRds

yipeeeee

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its not a cop out if they genuinely cant help themselves which many cant.

Well you could apply that to paedophiles murderers rapists etc.

It's not their fault, they can't help themselves.

Where do we draw the line.

yipeeeee

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

Whats your opinion on depression then? Are they being selfish too with all their negative thoughts and being sad? Sure theyre probably making it up the selfish ba$taRds

See above.

Galway K9

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Thats the spirit dont let them drag you down

Pun intended?

SEPT 23 1989

Noobascious wrote: »

I'm an alcohol but I'm not selfish I give money and stuff to the poor :-p

I've never trusted the majority of my friends and anyway they always had other friends to hang out with. So alcohol is my only friend now. Happy out

Family are always trying to construe my addiction as some sort major problem but they create the problems. Ie ran out of money don't get paid monthly - give us a loan of twenty euro for drink - duck off - q me going ape**** cos I'm already a bit drunk- they fuking well have the money and know the reaction they'll get from me. Recording me on their iPhones to show when I'm sober what an asshole I'd been. Niggas please

Thats the spirit dont let them drag you down

estudent

It's very dependent upon the person.

Why does anyone consume drugs?

A person can drink a bottle of Whisky in few hours while another person might take weeks or months. Same goes for any drug.

You have to ask WHY the person is taking the drug in the first place.

Don't look at the symptoms, look at the cause.

Macavity.

I don't see how it's selfish if it does not affect anyone else, which in some cases it doesn't.

Amirani

yipeeeee wrote: »

Well you could apply that to paedophiles murderers rapists etc.

It's not their fault, they can't help themselves.

Where do we draw the line.

Indeed. It really brings up the whole "free will is an illusion" idea.

Do humans actually have control over their own actions, or do they just think they do? It's not completely clear. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-free-will-an-illusion/

My name is URL

Boskowski wrote: »

We continue to absolve ourselves from any responsibility for our actions. Everything is a condition, a disease these days. its a cop out.

How is it absolving people of their responsibilities by saying it's a disease? Lots of diseases are caused and exacerbated by reckless and irresponsible behaviors.

Look at the definitions of the word 'disease' and then ask yourself how alcoholism or other forms of addiction shouldn't be considered to be diseases.

Todd Toddington III

yipeeeee wrote: »

See above.

I dont understand what youre saying. As someone whos seen there partner being treated like a pariah by their family due to their unwillingness to deal with her depression, not even talk to her about it, I was attempting to point out to the op that he's full of $hit and doesnt know what he's talking about. Perhaps ill be more obvious next time. Whats your view on these "made up" illnesses then?

yipeeeee

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Indeed. It really brings up the whole "free will is an illusion" idea.

Do humans actually have control over their own actions, or do they just think they do? It's not completely clear. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-free-will-an-illusion/

I have started threads on this topic.

It freaks people out so much it's best not to go there:)

Wabbit Ears

I used to try make excuses for alcoholics and say its a disease and they cant help themselves but Ive grown up and see no reason to have empathy for people who spend their entire lives destroying their own lives and the lives of people around them. Most people DONT do that because most people arent fcuking a$sholes. Dipsos aren't selfish, they're just serious fcuking a$sholes. end of.

Todd Toddington III

yipeeeee wrote: »

See above.

But the line has been drawn by society on these people, they get put away for there crimes. Should we starting locking up these addicts?

Edit...maybe im being extreme here. A proper treatment programme would help, like with old style asylums, a family should be able to commit someone to get them clean. Never happen, not sexy enough for politicos

rosedream

Macavity. wrote: »

I don't see how it's selfish if it does not affect anyone else, which in some cases it doesn't.

What about partners, families, extended families, friends, and workmates? Heck, even the junkies and alkies who seem to roam the streets alone still affect others by pestering people for money and making them uncomfortable in case a mugging was about to happen.

yipeeeee

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

I dont understand what youre saying. As someone whos seen there partner being treated like a pariah by their family due to their unwillingness to deal with her depression, not even talk to her about it, I was attempting to point out to the op that he's full of $hit and doesnt know what he's talking about. Perhaps ill be more obvious next time. Whats your view on these "made up" illnesses then?

No sorry you're taking me up wrong.

Im saying people's state of mind can't be helped, i agree with you.

Depression is a horrible illness, wouldn't wish it on anyone.

zanador

yipeeeee wrote: »

Well you could apply that to paedophiles murderers rapists etc.

It's not their fault, they can't help themselves.

Where do we draw the line.

I think we draw the line at people's actions. So, if someone is a paedophile and born that way it's not a problem. If they act on their urges then it becomes a problem.

Todd Toddington III

yipeeeee wrote: »

No sorry you're taking me up wrong.

Im saying people's state of mind can't be helped, i agree with you.

Depression is a horrible illness, wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Ya ok, I get u now. Tnx 4 the clarification

yipeeeee

zanador wrote: »

I think we draw the line at people's actions. So, if someone is a paedophile and born that way it's not a problem. If they act on their urges then it becomes a problem.

Same with addicts.

estudent

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Indeed. It really brings up the whole "free will is an illusion" idea.

Do humans actually have control over their own actions, or do they just think they do? It's not completely clear.

Scientists always look at the symptoms. They're not stupid but they are somewhat ignorant of reality perhaps because they lived a sheltered life.

I'm not a scientist but I don't believe it's a disease at all, I believe it's a choice but there are underlying reasons why someone might abuse a drug.

I've attended AA and NA and even though a lot of members will argue "it's a disease" ..that's just a way to avoid dealing with the real reason they abuse drugs (incl. alcohol)

Treating drug addiction as a "disease" is actually leading to many suicides in this country because the HSE refuse to acknowledge why a person abuses drugs in the first place.

Boskowski

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Tell that to my OCD, I know exactly what I'm doing yet can't stop it.

But you didn't buy your ocd in a shop and gradually increased it to a point where you couldn't stop buying it.

Sorry people are being educated about the dangers of drugs including alcohol.

So if you insist on building yourself up to daily abuse anyway you can hardly call it something that 'was in you' and you never had a chance to do something about.

It's a cop out

Macavity.

rosedream wrote: »

What about partners, families, extended families, friends, and workmates? Heck, even the junkies and alkies who seem to roam the streets alone still affect others by pestering people for money and making them uncomfortable in case a mugging was about to happen.

A functioning alcoholic who is not in a relationship and with limited family may not necessarily be hurting anyone (other than themselves). People seem to have the idea that alcoholics are degenerates that are abusive and loiter the streets looking for spare change. Not everything is black and white.

darkpagandeath

Boskowski wrote: »

But you didn't buy your ocd in a shop and gradually increased it to a point where you couldn't stop buying it.

Sorry people are being educated about the dangers of drugs including alcohol.

So if you insist on building yourself up to daily abuse anyway you can hardly call it something that 'was in you' and you never had a chance to do something about.

It's a cop out

So I guess you have no idea what an addictive personality is then ?

Kiwi in IE

rosedream wrote: »

What about partners, families, extended families, friends, and workmates? Heck, even the junkies and alkies who seem to roam the streets alone still affect others by pestering people for money and making them uncomfortable in case a mugging was about to happen.

Yeah homeless people with addiction problems are the most selfish of all. They don't give any thought to the poor people who might feel uncomfortable having to see them in public places. Selfish bastards!

estudent

Boskowski wrote: »

But you didn't buy your ocd in a shop and gradually increased it to a point where you couldn't stop buying it.

Sorry people are being educated about the dangers of drugs including alcohol.

So if you insist on building yourself up to daily abuse anyway you can hardly call it something that 'was in you' and you never had a chance to do something about.

It's a cop out

I agree but what isn't being addressed is WHY those people are compelled to abuse substances.

Many people abuse substances to escape reality. They can be sexual, physical, mental abuse victims that can't function.

Who am I to say someone who abuses substances has a "disease"?
What is the cure for this "disease"? More drugs? Like pharmaceutical drugs?

SMJSF

I'm a daughter of an alcoholic, went into care, etc. It is not a disease, it's definitely selfish. In the past years I loved my mum, but now I blame her for choosing drink over me. That might sound childish, but it's my feelings. And yes this will sound bad, but personally I think her dying would be better for her, and everyone else.
I don't see her as my mum, just more of a nuisance... I seem to always feel angry ando upset after talking to her (phone), and is emotionally draining.

that's just how I feel and my experiences.

Pwindedd

I can imagine that to those affected by the actions or behaviour of an addict it can appear very selfish and uncaring. I also though can imagine it from the addicts view and I know I wouldn't like to ever have to go through it myself. I would imagine there's a fair bit of self-loathing and misery involved.

It's shît for everyone involved.

estudent

SMJSF wrote: »

I'm a daughter of an alcoholic, went into care, etc. It is not a disease, it's definitely selfish. In the past years I loved my mum, but now I blame her for choosing drink over me. That might sound childish, but it's my feelings. And yes this will sound bad, but personally I think her dying would be better for her, and everyone else.
I don't see her as my mum, just more of a nuisance... I seem to always feel angry ando upset after talking to her (phone), and is emotionally draining.

that's just how I feel and my experiences.

Did you ever discover WHY your mother abused alcohol?

Boskowski

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So I guess you have no idea what an addictive personality is then ?

I guess not no. I think it's a cop out.

I also believe that calling addiction a disease is enabling addicts.

But I concede that I'm not educated on the matter and that my opinion may be a bit ignorant.

Greenmachine

Boskowski wrote: »

I guess not no. I think it's a cop out.

I also believe that calling addiction a disease is enabling addicts.

But I concede that I'm not educated on the matter and that my opinion may be a bit ignorant.

Absolutely it is a cop out.

SMJSF

estudent wrote:

Did you ever discover WHY your mother abused alcohol?

nobody really knows - it started when she was a teen, so it could have something to do with her mother dying possibly (she died when she was around 11).... she denies having a drink problem.
but I didn't come along until she was 40, so (thankfully) I'm not the reason!

Todd Toddington III

estudent wrote: »

I agree but what isn't being addressed is WHY those people are compelled to abuse substances.

Many people abuse substances to escape reality. They can be sexual, physical, mental abuse victims that can't function.

Who am I to say someone who abuses substances has a "disease"?
What is the cure for this "disease"? More drugs? Like pharmaceutical drugs?

I used to love drinking before i stopped and it had nothing to do with anything you mention. Same with cigarettes before that and my vaping pipe now. I just cannot put it down. Its my personality type. I stopped the booze cos it got to a stage where I was getting blackout drunk when I went out and as I work shift, on weekdays I was off and the missus was in bed, a bottle of wine a night was no problem to me. Dunno if everyone can make this choice. Having an addictive personality means anything can hook you. Had similar problems with online gaming (mw2) and online poker too, it just takes over your life. I have to be careful, not everyone has been so lucky

Wabbit Ears

estudent wrote: »

Did you ever discover WHY your mother abused alcohol?

Knowing WHY would change absolutely nothing so why seek to know the answer to that question. It would'nt change what she did to her family and what if the answer to the WHY was she was just a really ****ty person and they all went through it for nothing?

Todd Toddington III

estudent wrote: »

Did you ever discover WHY your mother abused alcohol?

Maybe they did, its probably none of your business though

estudent

Greenmachine wrote: »

Absolutely it is a cop out.

Calling it an outright "cop out" is a bit ignorant.

I'll give you a simple example.

I knew a man who was physically abused and neglected by his parents, both alcoholics.
He developed a self-loathing because of how he was treated and as he grew became very self-destructive.

Always in trouble with the law, in jail, abusing drugs/alcohol, attempted suicide number of occasions (which he eventually succeeded)

This wasn't someone with a disease but it wasn't a cop out either because when he looked for help, he was told he had a chemical imbalance

He hanged himself in the end but not because of a chemical imbalance, it was because nobody would listen to him.

Anyone can find themselves in that situation. Don't be quick to judge.

rosedream

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Yeah homeless people with addiction problems are the most selfish of all. They don't give any thought to the poor people who might feel uncomfortable having to see them in public places. Selfish bastards!

I am not talking about people who look at the homeless and the addicts on the street as a "eye sore".
I am talking about people who have the addicts hassling them and becoming aggressive. Seen one drunken guy at the station following a man through the station to his lift, hurling abuse at him.

Anyway I am talking about addicts, not the homeless. I have dealt with homeless people, and they have never asked anything from me, just a simple hi and a chat if you had the time. Also they never come across as having an addiction issues.

Wabbit Ears

estudent wrote: »

Calling it an outright "cop out" is a bit ignorant.

I'll give you a simple example.

I knew a man who was physically abused and neglected by his parents, both alcoholics.
He developed a self-loathing for himself because of how he was treated and as he grew became very self-destructive.

Always in trouble with the law, in jail, abusing drugs/alcohol, attempted suicide number of occasions (which he eventually succeeded)

This wasn't someone with a disease but it wasn't a cop out either because when he looked for help, he was told he had a chemical imbalance

He hanged himself in the end but not because of a chemical imbalance, it was because nobody would listen to him.

Anyone can find themselves in that situation. Don't be quick to judge.

I have no idea what the moral of that story is supposed to be?