Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Read Mod Warning in OP 7/1/15

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

who says welbeck is a striker? he is clearly not, he is a winger/forward

A lot of people proclaim he is and that he was played out if position and then point to a handful of games to prove their point he is a striker.

Few people around the forum put money on him to be too scorer this year.

Mitch Connor

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

A lot of people proclaim he is and that he was played out if position and then point to a handful of games to prove their point he is a striker.

Few people around the forum put money on him to be too scorer this year.

He is a foward and a lot of the time at United he was played out of position.

He was being played as a left sided midfielder with all the defensive responsibility that entails - it doesn't excuse the poor finishing on chances he did get, but he was played out of position quite a bit. At United it was rare enough to see him played as a wing forward (similar to Neymar/Suarez positions) or as a central forward. Most of the time he was used defensively because of his workrate.

TheDoc

Wellbeck is being greatly over exaggerated in the English media as they tie him with both club and country performances, which is ridiculous. Listen to any pundit, commentator or journalist speak about Wellbeck's league form and a mention about England isn't normally a sentence away.

Considering the majority of Manchester United fans don't give a **** about England, the only concern is his league and club form, which was pretty garbage. And he hasn't exactly lit the league on fire this season.

Last I checked Rooney, Falcao and RVP have more league goals then him. Might have changed now, but he had something abysmal like 4 when I checked a few weeks ago.

Was good business selling him. If he turns into a great striker a few years down the line great, but he's nothing special. Pacey strikers come in spades, good finishers don't.

Blatter

Describing Welbeck's performances for United as 'garbage' is grossly unfair.

Winston Payne

I'd be regretting letting Welbeck go a lot more if we didn't have Wilson coming through. Mightn't press as well as him but at least it's a bit of pace up front. Welbeck might have given us a bit more in terms of tactical utility but ultimately he was never going to start up front for us and he asked out. We move on.

TheDoc

Blatter wrote: »

Describing Welbeck's performances for United as 'garbage' is grossly unfair.

I just don't get the fawning over him. I've never felt any "love" or "desired hope" that he would suceed. I don't have any attachment to him.

I don't buy the argument that "ow he was played out of position". He was played out of position because clearly he wasn't good enough to lead the line. the opportunities he got were mostly squandered in my view.

And that just was all summed up against Bayern, when with all the nice general play in the world, when it came down to his actual requirement in the team, stick away a one on one with a keeper, he made a retarded choice and squandered the chance.

Throw a stone into a youth acadamy and you will find a pacey player who is neat with the ball at his feet. It's pretty hard finding a striker who can actually finish.

Pro. F

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

I did not, you are either lying or being willfullly obtuse, either way I've enough of it.

Yes, you did assert all of those points, here you go:

Pro. F wrote: »

I argued against your points:
1 success breeds success
2 signing RVP didn't impact future potential signings
3 that Madrid don't concern themselves with buying big names

You did assert all of those points.

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

To answer your points in order.

Not short term at all, its about the legacy, the aura of the club. 1 Success breeds success. Twenty million was cheap at the price.

2 It had no impact on future or possible signings. The past two yrs have proved that. The fact is Fergie and club seniors such as Gill felt we had an adequate squad at the time so signings were not being made.

3 Its not about big name, its about buying better quality than you have. Madrid never baulk at that, neither should we.

Spazdarn

Wilson has as much pace as Welbeck and doesn't have those dangly legs... they both add a directness much needed.

Bit early to be judging both in their new posts though..

The squad Fergie had wasn't great, the fact he won the league really compounds how amazing he was as a manager and as a motivator.

bullvine

TheDoc wrote: »

I just don't get the fawning over him. I've never felt any "love" or "desired hope" that he would suceed. I don't have any attachment to him.

I don't buy the argument that "ow he was played out of position". He was played out of position because clearly he wasn't good enough to lead the line. the opportunities he got were mostly squandered in my view.

And that just was all summed up against Bayern, when with all the nice general play in the world, when it came down to his actual requirement in the team, stick away a one on one with a keeper, he made a retarded choice and squandered the chance.

Throw a stone into a youth acadamy and you will find a pacey player who is neat with the ball at his feet. It's pretty hard finding a striker who can actually finish.

I remember the game against Liverpool in January 2013, he got MOM on Sky after his great work effort and link up but they never mentioned the fact he missed 2 unbelievably chances in the game. In the end United held on for a 2-1.

RobertKK

For tonight:

First of all a win, but I would love a 5-0 type win, we haven't been great in front of goal.
Watching the Ronaldo's goals at United yesterday on MUTV, and the talk of 5-0 wins...I miss those days.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

I just don't get the fawning over him. I've never felt any "love" or "desired hope" that he would suceed. I don't have any attachment to him.

I don't buy the argument that "ow he was played out of position". He was played out of position because clearly he wasn't good enough to lead the line. the opportunities he got were mostly squandered in my view.

And that just was all summed up against Bayern, when with all the nice general play in the world, when it came down to his actual requirement in the team, stick away a one on one with a keeper, he made a retarded choice and squandered the chance.

Throw a stone into a youth acadamy and you will find a pacey player who is neat with the ball at his feet. It's pretty hard finding a striker who can actually finish.

6 starts up front under moyes 6 goals.

he plays on the left because he never let the manager down while playing that position. against real Madrid he man marked Alonso and never gave him a sniff. If fergie was still manager welbeck would never have been sold

Against Bayern, he was outstanding apart from the missed chance. Not a word about the unreal goal he scored earlier in the game when the ref said he raised his foot too high either I see

adox

Spazdarn wrote: »

Wilson has as much pace as Welbeck and doesn't have those dangly legs... they both add a directness much needed.

Bit early to be judging both in their new posts though..

The squad Fergie had wasn't great, the fact he won the league really compounds how amazing he was as a manager and as a motivator.

Welbeck is an incredibly skillful player.

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

6 starts up front under moyes 6 goals.

he plays on the left because he never let the manager down while playing that position. against real Madrid he man marked Alonso and never gave him a sniff. If fergie was still manager welbeck would never have been sold

Against Bayern, he was outstanding apart from the missed chance. Not a word about the unreal goal he scored earlier in the game when the ref said he raised his foot too high either I see

Just because he got 6 goals in 6 dosent really equate to him getting 20 odd goals over a season though.

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

6 starts up front under moyes 6 goals.

he plays on the left because he never let the manager down while playing that position. against real Madrid he man marked Alonso and never gave him a sniff. If fergie was still manager welbeck would never have been sold

Against Bayern, he was outstanding apart from the missed chance. Not a word about the unreal goal he scored earlier in the game when the ref said he raised his foot too high either I see

Six goals in six, brilliant. Against whom? What was the situation?

The point of the above is there is an unhealthy obsession with stats and stats and stats in modern discussion on football. As someone who works with stats heavily, stats form PART of a narrative, not THE narrative.

Now I know you have one mentioned " six in six" but just to preface what I could safely assume will be an onslaught of statistical bafoonery further in the thread.

I don't need ANY stats to tell me that I had little to no confidence in Wellbeck when he played up front. I don't need stats to tell me how probably opponents weren't petrified of him.

Yeah he did well on Alonso, yeah he did well on the left every so often. That's great. Phil Jones was excellent marking Ronaldo, yet plenty would be happy to see him sold. One or two instances of doing a job well, doesn't mean that the individual is indispensable.

And I really can't understand why people see that as some form of benefit, or plaudit. If he really was a top quality striker, or as good as some people make out, he wouldn't be bundled around the field. He'd play in his position and that's that.

Exact same pattern developing at Arsenal already. Poor goal return, squandered chances, Giroud comes back to fitness and Wellbeck is either on the bench of playing of the left.

16m for him was good business, simple as. I'm not going to make some outrageous and quiet frankly silly assumption he will never be a 20+ goal striker, he very well could. But in three seasons in the first team he was unable to cement himself as a first choice striker and never established himself.

bangkok

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Just because he got 6 goals in 6 dosent really equate to him getting 20 odd goals over a season though.

my point was when he got the run up front he wanted, when rvp was injured, he delivered, when rvp came back danny was put back on the left

bangkok

danny welbeck is not a striker, not was, never will be, he is a forward/winger


andy cole was a striker, van nistelrooy was a striker, inzagi was a striker

ElChe32

Watching us play lately..




Lets hope for something a little up lifting tonight.

adox

A forward player can be a very good player without scoring lots of goals.
Sure Welbeck didnt/doent have a great scoring record but its being incredibly selective and willingly ignoring other aspects of his game that contributed greatly to Utd when called upon.

Sure I get the argument that he doesnt score enough goals but people are putting forward a narrative as if hes a fox in the box, a goal poacher who isnt Doing the job and contributing nothing else.

Also not agreeing with him being sold doesnt automatically mean you think he should be in the team every game, a presumption a few seem to be making on here.

bmcc10

bangkok wrote: »

danny welbeck is not a striker, not was, never will be, he is a forward/winger


andy cole was a striker, van nistelrooy was a striker, inzagi was a striker

That's a stupid argument now,

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

danny welbeck is not a striker, not was, never will be, he is a forward/winger


andy cole was a striker, van nistelrooy was a striker, inzagi was a striker

You are contradicting yourself.


The run he wanted up top? That means he was a striker?


Make up your mind on what he was. I don't know what you are arguing anymore

bullvine

Is there a difference between a Forward and a Striker?

bangkok

bullvine wrote: »

Is there a difference between a Forward and a Striker?

you serious?!

bullvine

bangkok wrote: »

you serious?!

Yea! :cool:

The Moldy Gowl

bullvine wrote: »

Is there a difference between a Forward and a Striker?

I'm pretty sure it's an excuse you use when you have a striker capable of olayibg on the left but is still not good enough to score a few goals.

Could be wrong.

Over to Bangkok for the full definition.

bangkok

bullvine wrote: »

Yea! :cool:

dennis bergkamp, eric cantona were forwards, dropping off the front man, playing the space behind the striker.

Inzaghi, van nistelrooy were strikers, do nothing in the build up play, play on the last defenders shoulder and score loads of tap ins

bullvine

Seriously, are we not all tired of the Welbeck debate, as the saying goes, "the proof of the pudding will be in the eating."

Leroy42

Jebus, whatever about your opinions on the style of play, the formation, impact of injuries.

Surely the biggest indictment of LVG is that even though it is January we are still debating Welbeck. Christ on a bike. We have Falcao, RVP, Rooney, Mata and Di Maria and you guys think that Welbeck would make a difference?

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

dennis bergkamp, eric cantona were forwards, dropping off the front man, playing the space behind the striker.

Inzaghi, van nistelrooy were strikers, do nothing in the build up play, play on the last defenders shoulder and score loads of tap ins

Describing van nistelrooy and inzaghi as just scoring tap ins is just nonsense.

keane2097

Leroy42 wrote: »

Jebus, whatever about your opinions on the style of play, the formation, impact of injuries.

Surely the biggest indictment of LVG is that even though it is January we are still debating Welbeck. Christ on a bike. We have Falcao, RVP, Rooney, Mata and Di Maria and you guys think that Welbeck would make a difference?

LVG is hardly the person that's an indictment of.

bangkok

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Describing van nistelrooy and inzaghi as just scoring tap ins is just nonsense.

read again, I said score loads of tap ins, which they did do

just to add, van nistelrooy never scored a goal from outside the box for united in 150 goals!!