Belvedere Students Criticised for Sleepout

Rough Sleeper

tricky D wrote: »

That Boland one should educate herself on the other acts Belvederians partake in like the excellent V de P work done during and out of term by providing companionship to the lonely and elderly in particular and others in hardship (some heart-breaking stuff you wouldn't believe), and also the Christmas dinner they hold in the school. I might have lost touch with my alma mater but would assume these are still done.

"Belvederians" dude, seriously? Close to half of the lads I hang around with went to Belvedere and they'd be absolutely appalled to hear someone use that term. Please tell me that no one actually uses it?

Andrewf20

As long as it raises awareness and / or funds for a good cause, I couldnt give 2 hoots about the methods used. Fair play to all on the sleep out.

Steve_Carella

Anybody who sees nothing wrong with picking faults with people who are doing whatever they can to make a genuine effort to help others really needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

evolving_doors

Steve_Carella wrote: »

Anybody who sees nothing wrong with picking faults with people who are doing whatever they can to make a genuine effort to help others really needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

I wonder if she would be so critical it it weren't a fee paying school initiative.

Yup Irish Times have decended into click-bait journalism. Just from following their on line headlines on education for the last year.... if its a slow day just stick up anything that has FEE PAYING SCHOOLS in the title.. the articles never have anything new in them, or add zero to an already tired debate.. might as well be talking about school uniforms again.. yawn.

Well done Jawgap, youve got to the nub of the article... which has nothing to do with anything btw.

tricky D

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

"Belvederians" dude, seriously? Close to half of the lads I hang around with went to Belvedere and they'd be absolutely appalled to hear someone use that term. Please tell me that no one actually uses it?

I'm very sorry that your friends seem to feel the need to take a dose of offense at the term, but that is the correct term which is used liberally and is widespread across publications including the school's annual. Go figure.

Personally I've never heard any Belvederian vex themselves over such a trite matter, let alone feel appalled; there are much better things to worry about.

Anyhoo, it seems that for some with little better to do than moan and point fingers at those who quietly get on with doing good deeds, there's the attitude that every silver cloud has a grey lining.

One eyed Jack

Jawgap wrote: »

Sometimes you find those who volunteer rarely look at their watches, and quite often the one hour becomes four.

And I'm not getting into what I do or who I do it - beyond saying I am involved in advocacy and admin work (on a voluntary basis) for an organisation that deals with housing and, to a lesser degree, people coming out of homelessness. My time commitment is about 2 to 4 hours a month with them and another couple of hours each week dealing with issues remote from them. I do about 2 home visits per month, as required.

Fair play to them for raising the money, but lets not pretend it's more than that.

The only people who seem to want to make more of anything these boys are doing is yourself and that journalist. They're doing something really worthwhile to raise awareness for homeless charities and raise money for them so that they can help more homeless people, and you're trying to say they're "not doing enough". You're coming off as woefully bitter and spiteful simply because of these boys backgrounds, when you should know, as you claim to work in homeless services, that ANYONE can become homeless, regardless of their background.

Most people I know who work in homeless services charities are grateful for every cent they get, no matter where it comes from, and are grateful to anyone who gets involved, in any capacity, and for you to suggest that these boys "aren't doing enough" shows how much you truly know about what it is to be homeless - you're grateful for any bit of help you receive, no matter who or where it comes from, and I say that as a person who was homeless 20 years ago, and I've done what I can since for other people who were in my situation, and I think these boys ought to be commended and given credit for what they're doing, not picked apart by some finger wagging journalist or some anonymous person on the internet who isn't out there with them!

AndonHandon

I think Rosita Boland demonstrates why the arts budget has been slaughtered over the past few years and also puts a case to abolish tax exemptions too.

Steve_Carella

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The only people who seem to want to make more of anything these boys are doing is yourself and that journalist. They're doing something really worthwhile to raise awareness for homeless charities and raise money for them so that they can help more homeless people, and you're trying to say they're "not doing enough". You're coming off as woefully bitter and spiteful simply because of these boys backgrounds, when you should know, as you claim to work in homeless services, that ANYONE can become homeless, regardless of their background.

Most people I know who work in homeless services charities are grateful for every cent they get, no matter where it comes from, and are grateful to anyone who gets involved, in any capacity, and for you to suggest that these boys "aren't doing enough" shows how much you truly know about what it is to be homeless - you're grateful for any bit of help you receive, no matter who or where it comes from, and I say that as a person who was homeless 20 years ago, and I've done what I can since for other people who were in my situation, and I think these boys ought to be commended and given credit for what they're doing, not picked apart by some finger wagging journalist or some anonymous person on the internet who isn't out there with them!

This X 1,000.

The Diabolical Monocle

One eyed Jack wrote: »

(responding to jawgap)


The only people who seem to want to make more of anything these boys are doing is yourself and that journalist. They're doing something really worthwhile to raise awareness for homeless charities and raise money for them so that they can help more homeless people, and you're trying to say they're "not doing enough". You're coming off as woefully bitter and spiteful simply because of these boys backgrounds, when you should know, as you claim to work in homeless services, that ANYONE can become homeless, regardless of their background.

Most people I know who work in homeless services charities are grateful for every cent they get, no matter where it comes from, and are grateful to anyone who gets involved, in any capacity, and for you to suggest that these boys "aren't doing enough" shows how much you truly know about what it is to be homeless - you're grateful for any bit of help you receive, no matter who or where it comes from, and I say that as a person who was homeless 20 years ago, and I've done what I can since for other people who were in my situation, and I think these boys ought to be commended and given credit for what they're doing, not picked apart by some finger wagging journalist or some anonymous person on the internet who isn't out there with them!

+1. Bravo sir.

Littlekittylou

Jawgap wrote: »

We're in to real ethics / philosophy territory here. Volunteering is not self-less - it is it's own reward. If you want to be spiritual about it, you could say it nourishes the soul.

No it doesn't always. I know a friend from Uni who went abroad to volunteer with children in Africa. They were street kids and some were trafficked into prostitution. It took a toll on him rather than nurtured him. He needed counselling.

Consider Fr Mc Verry listening to the prisoners stories some of which I am sure are awful. But the fact that they are where they are now. And he is there too. In that grim place. I have visited in there. I did some work with Fr Mc Verry. It is frightening. I realized how much strength it would take.

There is no pay back. It's just giving.

But some people are born with a heart a certain type of heart for a reason. It just gives without thinking.

I realized that time with Mr Mc Verry what a toll such work with those people in that place would take on myself ( I was only doing one project from the outset and that in itself is a weird tale but it made me think about what if I was there longer). They are not 'nice ' people always. Some of the male prisoners in mountjoy came up to me and asked me to write to them. I said no. I wanted to guard my self interest. That was a selfish act. Writing to them would have caused me great emotional perturbation and upset perhaps. And that would have been a selfless act. But they were prisoners. Was it moral at all?

Don't think that helping people is always going to nourish your soul. You will never be able to truly help if you think that. It's tiring.

It is not the work that nourishes the soul it is you and your choice to still go on no matter how bad it gets.

Fr Mc Verry has a huge heart. But bigger than that is his stoicism. The work did not give him that he worked on it himself.

If you think everything good act has it's own reward you will be left hungry for it when it doesn't come.

Most of the time it feels good to help people , the most beautiful thing in the world. But sometimes I think it takes a lot. People sacrifice a lot of themselves and you can tell. They need to take a break from it. Particularly in very awful situations.

I agree with one eyed jack. People in need are grateful for the help. And it's beautiful when it comes from the heart and it's wrong to say otherwise.

The boys doing it are doing a kindness.

Jawgap

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The only people who seem to want to make more of anything these boys are doing is yourself and that journalist. They're doing something really worthwhile to raise awareness for homeless charities and raise money for them so that they can help more homeless people, and you're trying to say they're "not doing enough". You're coming off as woefully bitter and spiteful simply because of these boys backgrounds, when you should know, as you claim to work in homeless services, that ANYONE can become homeless, regardless of their background.

Most people I know who work in homeless services charities are grateful for every cent they get, no matter where it comes from, and are grateful to anyone who gets involved, in any capacity, and for you to suggest that these boys "aren't doing enough" shows how much you truly know about what it is to be homeless - you're grateful for any bit of help you receive, no matter who or where it comes from, and I say that as a person who was homeless 20 years ago, and I've done what I can since for other people who were in my situation, and I think these boys ought to be commended and given credit for what they're doing, not picked apart by some finger wagging journalist or some anonymous person on the internet who isn't out there with them!

I've absolutely no problem with funds they raise - they are to be welcomed, and full kudos to them for those efforts.

The point, which I seem to be doing rather poorly at getting across, is that as a bunch of confident, articulate young lads they could do homeless people a more valuable service by actually engaging with homeless people (beyond food and soup runs) to understand and help solve those myriad 'little' problems that seem small to us but can trip up someone who has suffered the life-shattering blow of losing their home.

The problem is to do that needs a longer term engagement with the people concerned over months.

No doubt they've created a very successful annual event (and long may it continue to go from strength to strength) - but, again, there's no need to amplify beyond what it is. Lots of fund raisers work harder and raise less, and get a lot less recognition.

Rough Sleeper

tricky D wrote: »

I'm very sorry that your friends seem to feel the need to take a dose of offense at the term, but that is the correct term which is used liberally and is widespread across publications including the school's annual. Go figure.

Personally I've never heard any Belvederian vex themselves over such a trite matter, let alone feel appalled; there are much better things to worry about.

Anyhoo, it seems that for some with little better to do than moan and point fingers at those who quietly get on with doing good deeds, there's the attitude that every silver cloud has a grey lining.

If you can't see how hilariously twee the term is then I guess I can't help you. If you want to propagate the (misguided, in the case of Belvedere) notion that private schools are weird elitist Hogwarts-type institutions that are self-important enough to require their own demonyms then I'd recommend using it as often as you can.

BasedHobbes

Jawgap wrote: »

I've absolutely no problem with funds they raise - they are to be welcomed, and full kudos to them for those efforts.

The point, which I seem to be doing rather poorly at getting across, is that as a bunch of confident, articulate young lads they could do homeless people a more valuable service by actually engaging with homeless people (beyond food and soup runs) to understand and help solve those myriad 'little' problems that seem small to us but can trip up someone who has suffered the life-shattering blow of losing their home.

The problem is to do that needs a longer term engagement with the people concerned over months.

No doubt they've created a very successful annual event (and long may it continue to go from strength to strength) - but, again, there's no need to amplify beyond what it is. Lots of fund raisers work harder and raise less, and get a lot less recognition.

The issue most people have is that you ignore the other work the students do. I'll list a few that I can remember.

VdeP - weekly visits, regular fundraising.
Soup Run - evenings and mornings in the week.
Old folks Computer lessons - weekly.
Placement in charities - monthly placements during TY.
Fundraising for charities such as Oaseophagial Cancer etc - throughout the year.
Calcutta charitable trip - Annual, construction of houses.
South Africa trip - ditto.
TEFL for Asylum seekers - weekly.
Kids club for local area - weekly.

And those are just the ones I remember. There's probably a lot more tbh.

You don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever actually been in to the school to ask about their charitable actions? Because you're giving uninformed opinion.

Edit - forgot the Block Pull, which raises money for Irish Guide Dogs. Annual.

Jawgap

Finlay wrote: »

The issue most people have is that you ignore the other work the students do. I'll list a few that I can remember.

VdeP - weekly visits, regular fundraising.
Soup Run - evenings and mornings in the week.
Old folks Computer lessons - weekly.
Placement in charities - monthly placements during TY.
Fundraising for charities such as Oaseophagial Cancer etc - throughout the year.
Calcutta charitable trip - Annual, construction of houses.
South Africa trip - ditto.
TEFL for Asylum seekers - weekly.
Kids club for local area - weekly.

And those are just the ones I remember. There's probably a lot more tbh.

You don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever actually been in to the school to ask about their charitable actions? Because you're giving uninformed opinion.

It's nice people are defending the school because I'm not attacking the school. People seem to be interpreting my offering of some alternative ideas as to what my prove to be a better use of the lads' time as an attack on the school, the participants and the event itself. Not really a whole lot I can do to prevent people imposing a subjective interpretation on what I write.

And, no, I've only ever been into Belv to play 4-a-side. Beyond that my only 'contact' with the school was through rugby.

BasedHobbes

Jawgap wrote: »

Fair play to them for raising the money, but lets not pretend it's more than that.

You said this. You're wrong. Simple as.

Jawgap

Finlay wrote: »

You said this. You're wrong. Simple as.

Thank you. But because other people think differently, it doesn't mean an alternative view is wrong.......unless Loyola was right

Never contradict anybody, with cause or without; but always accept what others approve.

tricky D

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

If you can't see how hilariously twee the term is then I guess I can't help you. If you want to propagate the (misguided, in the case of Belvedere) notion that private schools are weird elitist Hogwarts-type institutions that are self-important enough to require their own demonyms then I'd recommend using it as often as you can.

Huh?? Ok, whatever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

Steve_Carella

Jawgap wrote: »

Thank you. But because other people think differently, it doesn't mean an alternative view is wrong.......unless Loyola was right

No. But it does mean that YOU'RE wrong in this instance because you consistently ignore the ever growing list of additional charitable and fundraising activities that are done throughout the school throughout the year. You don't need to have been in the school to be aware of them, they've been pointed out a number of times on this thread.

Your point was 'They could be doing a lot more'; the replies pointed out how much more they do. You haven't even acknowledged these replies, you just keep replying to the now redundant point that people were under the impression that you were attacking the school. You've now made it crystal clear that you weren't.

Now would you care to reply to the other points that have been made to your original post demonstrating that you were offering uninformed amd, yes, 'wrong' opinions?

AndonHandon

tricky D wrote: »

Huh?? Ok, whatever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

I didn't really 'get' the reference but byGod I ROFLled!

Jawgap

Steve_Carella wrote: »

No. But it does mean that YOU'RE wrong in this instance because you consistently ignore the ever growing list of additional charitable and fundraising activities that are done throughout the school throughout the year. You don't need to have been in the school to be aware of them, they've been pointed out a number of times on this thread.

Your point was 'They could be doing a lot more'; the replies pointed out how much more they do. You haven't even acknowledged these replies, you just keep replying to the now redundant point that people were under the impression that you were attacking the school. You've now made it crystal clear that you weren't.

Now would you care to reply to the other points that have been made to your original post demonstrating that you were offering uninformed amd, yes, 'wrong' opinions?

My God, how dare someone have an opinion that runs counter to the vocal majority.

I know what my point was, and it wasn't that they could be doing more, it was they could do things different beyond fund raising.

There's no point in answering individual replies because it seems criticism is being interpreted as objection. There's an argument that suggests because of Irish society's long association with Catholicism, it never developed a proper concept of a loyal opposition - nothing in this thread has convinced that this is untrue.

I believe I've responded to all points made, except to the point about whether volunteering is always selfless. I passed on this point as I thought it would've dragged the thread off topic into an area more suitable for the Philosophy forum.

Merry Christmas.

cournioni

They were having chocolate while sleeping outside to raise awareness for the homeless? Shameful. They should have been shooting up or drinking alcohol like some of the real homeless.

Moronic article.

AndonHandon

Is it possible that Belvo lads do their sleep out as many of them, being northsiders, will end up homeless?

Montroseee

AndonHandon wrote: »

Is it possible that Belvo lads do their sleep out as many of them, being northsiders, will end up homeless?

Most of the lads in Belvo would live in the nicest areas of the Northside such as Castleknock, Sutton, Howth etc., wouldn't imagine they're on the breadline.

ebbsy

Just a reminder of why I read English newspapers, so I d'ont pollute my eyes.

Bridge93

Jawgap wrote: »

My God, how dare someone have an opinion that runs counter to the vocal majority.

I know what my point was, and it wasn't that they could be doing more, it was they could do things different beyond fund raising.

There's no point in answering individual replies because it seems criticism is being interpreted as objection. There's an argument that suggests because of Irish society's long association with Catholicism, it never developed a proper concept of a loyal opposition - nothing in this thread has convinced that this is untrue.

I believe I've responded to all points made, except to the point about whether volunteering is always selfless. I passed on this point as I thought it would've dragged the thread off topic into an area more suitable for the Philosophy forum.

Merry Christmas.

They do do different things besides fundraising... If you'd done your research you would know this.

This just happens to be one of their fundraisers.

OceanSixteen

Final figure raised was €178,191.

enough said.

Littlekittylou

OceanSixteen wrote: »

Final figure raised was €178,191.

enough said.

Surely no one can be displeased with that. Fair play to them.

steddyeddy

Belevdere don't just raise money they actually offer places to students from disadvantaged areas free of charge. Some of them with no parents and some from extremely rough backgrounds. These students wouldn't have had a chance in their local school and in this environment the often excel.

eisenberg1

AndonHandon wrote: »

Is it possible that Belvo lads do their sleep out as many of them, being northsiders, will end up homeless?

I think you need a bigger spoon...

Steve_Carella

Jawgap wrote: »

My God, how dare someone have an opinion that runs counter to the vocal majority.

You're perfectly entitled to have whatever opinion you want. But if you're going to offer an opinion that runs counter to the majority, you need to be prepared to stand your ground and argue your corner. You haven't done that in an effective manner and now you're simply trying to play the injured victim as yet another way of avoiding admitting you were wrong. It's pretty obtuse to imply that you feel victimised when everybody that has disagreed with you has done so articulately and respectfully, making perfectly valid points. Just as you're entitled to express your opinion, so are others entitled to disagree and express that.

Jawgap wrote: »

I know what my point was, and it wasn't that they could be doing more, it was they could do things different beyond fund raising.

They could be doing 'things different beyond fundraising'? So in other words, they could be doing more. That's EXACTLY what that means.

Jawgap wrote: »

There's no point in answering individual replies because it seems criticism is being interpreted as objection.

So you ARE criticising them. Are you criticising them for just the sleep out - which btw, on top of the amount raised this year raised nearly €150,000 last year and comparable in previous years, generating literally millions since it began? Or do your criticisms of them and saying they could be doing 'things different beyond fundraising' extend to all of the activities that are done year round by the school, activities which have been clearly outlined in this thread?

Jawgap wrote: »

There's no point in answering individual replies...

Although if, as you've stated, you have an opinion that runs counter to the vocal majority, you can hardly be surprised that people make points in reply and are then annoyed when you don't have the courtesy to reply to them.

Jawgap wrote: »

I believe I've responded to all points made, except to the point about whether volunteering is always selfless. I passed on this point as I thought it would've dragged the thread off topic into an area more suitable for the Philosophy forum.

You believe wrongly. You have consistently refused to respond to replies to your initial point that the students could be doing more (or 'things different beyond fundraising', as you prefer to phrase it), replies pointing out the huge amount of additional charitable acts carried out year round. Your refusal to reply simply indicates that you stand by your original point that all of the charitable activities detailed through the thread STILL aren't enough and that more could be done by the students involved in the sleepout and throughout the school.

In which case it would be most interesting and worthwhile - and additionally, it would really strengthen your own position - if you could detail some more things that the students could be doing?