Sullivan's Quay development

Kermit.de.frog

Hi all,

Came across this proposed project in Cork and apparently it got full planning permission along with Albert Quay.

Looks like could be interesting for the city.

Appears to be being advertised

http://www.property.ie/commercial-property/Sullivans-Quay-Cork-City-Centre-Co-Cork/95156/





Looks good compared to what is there. Anyway anyone know is this going ahead or anything about it?

calnand

That got planning permission years ago, ascon developments was behind it. I doubt much will happen with it in the near future. It's also not the nicest looking for what will be a very prominent building location in Cork.

the beer revolu

I like the building that's there now. Sure, it needs a clean up but I like the structure and lines of the building.
It is also, currently, the home of Sample Studios, 4th Floor Studios and Crawford College of Art and Design (amongst others, I believe). Literally hundreds of artists and art students use the building daily, bringing some life into the city. I'd hate to see all that go.
Currently BAM own the building so hopefully they will be too busy with the events centre to bother developing the Sullivan's quay building for a while.

opus

BAM have it at the moment I believe. Know one of the people who's working in one of the groups in the building & they have it on a month-to-month lease so imagine BAM will do something with it eventually. Maybe the new events centre down the road will help it along.

AugustusMinimus

the beer revolu wrote: »

I like the building that's there now. Sure, it needs a clean up but I like the structure and lines of the building.
It is also, currently, the home of Sample Studios, 4th Floor Studios and Crawford College of Art and Design (amongst others, I believe). Literally hundreds of artists and art students use the building daily, bringing some life into the city. I'd hate to see all that go.
Currently BAM own the building so hopefully they will be too busy with the events centre to bother developing the Sullivan's quay building for a while.

You'd think that the Brewery Quarter development would be the perfect place for these artists to be resettled.

Lambofdave

http://www.bamcontractors.ie/public/userfiles/Files/TheQuayCorkBrochure.pdf

Looking the the plan and if i have read it right the hotel will be at the back of the site.

Just another site in the bamafaction of Ireland

Rhys Essien

This job was also mentioned by Bam at the business leaders meeting last night.

Mr Cullinane said the firm also has planning permission for an 11,150 sq m office block and a 180-bed hotel on the site of the former Revenue building on Sullivans Quay.

Going Strong

I'd heard that the Reveue building had been deemed "A building of architectural interest" or words to that effect so must remain (mostly) as is.

the beer revolu

Going Strong wrote: »

I'd heard that the Reveue building had been deemed "A building of architectural interest" or words to that effect so must remain (mostly) as is.

I really hope this is true and it gets a face lift.
Fantastic piece of architecture with strong, bold lines.

byronbay2

the beer revolu wrote: »

I really hope this is true and it gets a face lift.
Fantastic piece of architecture with strong, bold lines.

Have to disagree with you there. It's an absolute eyesore, similar to the Boole library in UCC. The proposed new building looks like a huge improvement.

the beer revolu

byronbay2 wrote: »

Have to disagree with you there. It's an absolute eyesore, similar to the Boole library in UCC. The proposed new building looks like a huge improvement.

Thankfully these things aren't decided by popular vote.

CHealy

Each to their own but the current building looks like something out of soviet Russia, anything would be an improvement as long as its razed.

the beer revolu

If popular opinion had it's way, the future would hold no examples of architecture built between around 1950 and 1980 (except for private houses). It's crazy that buildings less than 50 years old are routinely demolished because they are seen as "out of fashion" and neither "classical" or "modern".

mire

byronbay2 wrote: »

Have to disagree with you there. It's an absolute eyesore, similar to the Boole library in UCC. The proposed new building looks like a huge improvement.

The Boole library in UCC is one of the most important pieces of architecture in the city - it's an excellent example of a modern building and a very good case study of how modernism can contribute to a good architectural landscape.

Outkast_IRE

the beer revolu wrote: »

If popular opinion had it's way, the future would hold no examples of architecture built between around 1950 and 1980 (except for private houses). It's crazy that buildings less than 50 years old are routinely demolished because they are seen as "out of fashion" and neither "classical" or "modern".

There is more to it than that. They were also built during the era of cheap oil/energy. Alot of these buildings builit between the 50s and 80s would actually be more energy intensive than some of the older buildings. They have very high heating and lighting costs compared to some a new building built using best practice guidelines. They can be prone to mould and damp .

KCAccidental

just nothing with glass frontage... for the love of god.

the beer revolu

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

There is more to it than that. They were also built during the era of cheap oil/energy. Alot of these buildings builit between the 50s and 80s would actually be more energy intensive than some of the older buildings. They have very high heating and lighting costs compared to some a new building built using best practice guidelines. They can be prone to mould and damp .

So we should just destroy all of them?
I've been in some pretty damp and cold castles.
Shall we knock them too?

Surely buildings can be retro-insulated and heating and lighting systems upgraded.

Outkast_IRE

the beer revolu wrote: »

So we should just destroy all of them?
I've been in some pretty damp and cold castles.
Shall we knock them too?

Surely buildings can be retro-insulated and heating and lighting systems upgraded.

Unless they are of very particular architectural/historical merit, then yes it usually does make sense to knock them.

Castles quite obviously are of considerable architectural/historical merit so no we dont knock them. But a funny thing is that some castles would actually be easier to heat than some of these buildings built in the 50s to 80s. The incredibly thick walls of the castles can actually act as a buffer between the outside air temperature and the inside all you need to do is reduce the air infiltration.

Yes buildings can be retro fitted with insulations and fancy new lighting systems but these solutions are usually expensive and are difficult to achieve an acceptable improvement to warrant the cost.

For example the glass facades on many new modern buildings isnt just for looks, it can be to help more daylight reach the internal spaces and ensure that artificial lighting is rarely needed. You cant retrofit that. Simply put the most energy efficient buildings are designed from scratch with regards to orientation, form and layout to minimise energy usage, you cant retrofit that.

the beer revolu

The argument being made, though, is that the old Revenue building is of architectural importance.
I'm not suggesting that every building of that era should be preserved - just that they aren't all destroyed because popular opinion deems them "ugly" or dated.

Outkast_IRE

the beer revolu wrote: »

The argument being made, though, is that the old Revenue building is of architectural importance.
I'm not suggesting that every building of that era should be preserved - just that they aren't all destroyed because popular opinion deems them "ugly" or dated.

Its not a bad looking building, but unfortunately they have let the exterior get incredibly poor on it. I suppose its up to the council to decide on whats building is classed as having architectural importance and subsequently giving them protected listed status, you would need to fight your battle there if you feel strongly that the building should be retained.

Personally, i wouldnt be sad to see it go.

54kroc

the beer revolu wrote: »

The argument being made, though, is that the old Revenue building is of architectural importance.
I'm not suggesting that every building of that era should be preserved - just that they aren't all destroyed because popular opinion deems them "ugly" or dated.

Who else is making the argument that the revenue building is of architectural importance? Besides yourself obviously.

the beer revolu

54kroc wrote: »

Who else is making the argument that the revenue building is of architectural importance? Besides yourself obviously.

I can't verify what is said below but....

Going Strong wrote: »

I'd heard that the Reveue building had been deemed "A building of architectural interest" or words to that effect so must remain (mostly) as is.

and clearly, I am not alone in my love of this building

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94882535&postcount=17

I also personally know people who have an appreciation for it, along with the R&H Hall building, the Boole library and the bus station. The Turner's cross church was extremely unpopular when it was built and is now an internationally recognised architectural classic. What people now consider ugly, may well be much lamented if it's gone in the future - "The Fools, how could they not have appreciated that!!"

evilivor

the beer revolu wrote: »

The argument being made, though, is that the old Revenue building is of architectural importance.
I'm not suggesting that every building of that era should be preserved - just that they aren't all destroyed because popular opinion deems them "ugly" or dated.

It of architectural importance, it's a fine example of Brutalism (French béton brut, or "raw concrete).

Jonathan Meades had a terrific documentary about the movement on BBC last year.

https://vimeo.com/93963469

Concrete was the wonder material - The Church of Christ the King in Turner's Cross is another building from the style.

SomeFool

54kroc wrote: »

Who else is making the argument that the revenue building is of architectural importance? Besides yourself obviously.

I actually like it too, a little bit of Le Corbusier in Cork! All our architectural heritage is important, not just the postcard stuff, it would be a shame to completely wipe it out.

Going Strong

54kroc wrote: »

Who else is making the argument that the revenue building is of architectural importance? Besides yourself obviously.

I heard it from my brother, who's in the construction business. However, looking at the list of protected buildings in Cork doesn't show the Revenue Building at all.

http://www.corkcity.ie/newdevelopmentplan/VOLUME%203%20INTERACTIVE/VOL%203%20PART%202.pdf

moyners

the beer revolu wrote: »

I also personally know people who have an appreciation for it, along with the R&H Hall building, the Boole library and the bus station. The Turner's cross church was extremely unpopular when it was built and is now an internationally recognised architectural classic. What people now consider ugly, may well be much lamented if it's gone in the future - "The Fools, how could they not have appreciated that!!"

I like the R&H Hall building, the Boole library and the bus station, even Turner's cross church.
The problem with the revenue building IMHO is it completely dominates its surroundings and not in a good way. It's like a massive concrete gorilla hunched down, glowering over Grand Parade and up towards St. Finbarr's. I won't be sorry to see it go if it does go, though I'm not a huge fan of the new design either.

CB19Kevo

Surely the building could be gutted inside and windows replaced/spruced up on the outside.
I find the pavements and streets surrounding the building as a big problem as well,It all needs to be resurfaced/re lined and pavements widened.
Cant say i like the new design at all.

WoolyJumper

I really don't like the design of the new building. I'm am getting sick of these rectangle buildings with a small tower next to them. Like the Elysian it already looks out of date to me. If rumours are true and this is going ahead I hope the plans have been revised somewhat.

Pablo Escobar

WoolyJumper wrote: »

I really don't like the design of the new building. I'm am getting sick of these rectangle buildings with a small tower next to them. Like the Elysian it already looks out of date to me. If rumours are true and this is going ahead I hope the plans have been revised somewhat.

As opposed to the KGB style one that's there at the moment? That thing genuinely looks depressing.

Lyaiera

**** photo but pretty building.


Benches-4 by Niamh O'Donovan, on Flickr

AwaitYourReply

the beer revolu wrote: »

If popular opinion had it's way, the future would hold no examples of architecture built between around 1950 and 1980 (except for private houses). It's crazy that buildings less than 50 years old are routinely demolished because they are seen as "out of fashion" and neither "classical" or "modern".

I think it was around 1984/1985 that the building in question which was then known locally as Government Buildings first opened with the Revenue Commissioners and FÁS being among the state agencies taking up residency there. FÁS was still relatively new as a training agency at the time having been rebranded after ANCO. I still recall the black+white painted timber walls erected around the whole square site and I think it was a ground surface car park off Sullivan's Quay for a number of years prior to the construction of Government Buildings.

I knew someone in the mid 80's who was converting the top attic floor of a building on Grand Parade (a building close to Deep South) and they had to ensure that the attic/roof windows should have a traditional appearance in keeping with the streetscape while at the same time, the completely ugly out of character Government Buildings was allowed to pollute the view of Sullivan's Quay when looking from Grand Parade. Nothing about Government Buildings ever fitted in with the old Cork City Fire Station now part of the Quay Co-Op (formerly Instinct/Elroy's/Westimers ) or former Sullivan's Quay CBS National School. The former Government Buildings on Sullivan's Quay has always looked disgusting even when it was new and fresh. Some say the site would be perfect for a major hotel/apartments/offices especially if the entire Cork Convention Centre/Brewery Quarter site is developed to it's full potential including conference centre, cinema, offices, bars etc;

The same nonsense with planning would happen when the South County Pub in Douglas West Village would go to extend their premises a few years ago - you can't do this or that as it would NOT be in keeping with the traditional look of the street/area while the revamp of the TESCO-Douglas Village Shopping Centre would be allowed destroy the character but it seems to be one rule for the smaller business while another rule or special exception for bigger interests. The big fish like Local Authorities/Councils/Big Developments can call it the modern contemporary fitting in nicely with the traditional character but the smaller business owner is never allowed advance such a concept or so it would seem going by previous experiences down through the years.

Lyaiera

The same nonsense. Destroy the character. Big fish. Ugly. One rule for the smaller business. Pollute the view. Always looked disgusting. Major hotel/apartments/offices.

I think it looks lovely housing a load of artists, and art students.

AwaitYourReply

Lyaiera wrote: »

The same nonsense. Destroy the character. Big fish. Ugly. One rule for the smaller business. Pollute the view. Always looked disgusting. Major hotel/apartments/offices.

I think it looks lovely housing a load of artists, and art students.

Well if BAM already secured the building the artists & students who only currently have temporary use of it on a month by month basis would not want to get too comfortable as they will only end up bitterly disappointed as it was only ever a temporary facility for a limited amount of time at the discretion of the building's owners.

Remember also those artists from the Community Arts Centre who have been using the Camden Palace Hotel's premises over on Camden Quay since 2009. They have been urgently looking for new premises as I understand they have been told they need to move elsewhere as there are other plans for this building.

That said, it would be great to see the voluntary efforts continued elsewhere but it is not the responsibility of existing building owners who may now need to move and get new developments off the ground especially if any new housing accommodation in the form of homes/apartments AND/OR any New Jobs in any business sector such as hotel etc; are the result of these new developments.

AwaitYourReply

the beer revolu wrote: »

The argument being made, though, is that the old Revenue building is of architectural importance.
I'm not suggesting that every building of that era should be preserved - just that they aren't all destroyed because popular opinion deems them "ugly" or dated.

I can never ever recall anyone saying it was a gorgeous/attractive/lovely building from Day One! - I honestly believe it was regarded as uninspiring and clinically functional in it's heyday back in the mid 1980's at most - otherwise; I suspect it was disliked or hated by a majority of Cork people.

How did this monstrosity ever get planning permission? It never fitted-in nicely with the old historical area of the city that it was placed. Notable buildings in the area would include the former St. Nicholas Church including it's spires behind, old red-bricked Cork City Fire Station, old Sullivan's Quay CBS School, The Red Abbey, former Beamish+Crawford Brewery due shortly for redevelopment, South Gate Bridge, Elizabeth Fort, Barrack Street, St. Finbarr's Cathedral.

Nothing about this building has ever complemented the surrounding area not back in the 1980s - and definitely not now in 2016!
The site would look a lot better with no building at all and a surface carpark in the interim before something a lot more tasteful is erected on this particular site in such a historical area of Cork City.

flo8s967qjh0nd

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

How did this monstrosity ever get planning permission?

To be fair, the same questions could be asked of a number of buildings through the years. Merchant's Quay, 'New' Opera House, Bachelor's Quay.

AwaitYourReply

Tenley Gray Gemstone wrote: »

To be fair, the same questions could be asked of a number of buildings through the years. Merchant's Quay, 'New' Opera House, Bachelor's Quay.

Very True - not to mention the out of character and unsightly public street lighting apparently inspired by a certain individual named: Beth Gali based on a similar design of work previously done in Tenerife. They started with Patrick Street and then went on to the Grand Parade and so on but Cork would probably have done better with a design and style that was more in keeping with our city streetscapes.

Of the buildings that were modernised and improved I would point to the School of Commerce (now Cork College of Commerce and Further Education) on Morrison's Island when they added a new floor on top of the building. The former CIE Albert Quay Railway Station/ex-Cork City Council Parking Fines Office) looks well in it's current more enhanced form. Quay Co-Op have the old Cork Fire Station building looking a lot better now again. Cork Opera house as it was first rebuilt and re-opened in the 1960's was a disaster to look at from the outside but thankfully they have managed to improve it's exterior appearance both on Lavitt's Quay and at the front on Emmet Place in subsequent years and it's not before time either! Merchant's Quay is about to undergo a major revamp very shortly with front main entrance and mall moving down closer to Mark's & Spencers department store. I would be very surprised if Dunnes Stores remains in Merchants Quay after the revamp is completed as it looks quiet and irrelevant since the Patrick Street Store was completely updated and significantly increased in size.

I also wonder how Penney's Department Store (The Munster Arcade) in Patrick Street will look in years to come given that they have apparently bought out the entire block of buildings - Next block the former Victoria Hotel was sold in 2015 to the landlord of the ground floor retail units underneath the hotel. Add to that the new extensive development starting on the old Capitol Cinema site on both Grand Parade & Lower Patrick Street in addition to new Cork Convention Centre in the Brewery Quarter on South Main Street and the Cork City Central Library are also planning a revamp so it's all going on in the city. The former warehouses at No. 1 Albert Quay building has just opened with Tyco as one of the main anchor tenants is also a very welcome addition and will bring much needed business into the city centre. And more apartments are about to be fitted out very soon as part of the existing Elysian complex so all good news as the city tries to recover after a very tough and long economic recession.

mire

The FAS building was never subject to a planning permission. It was a government project that did not go through the usual planning process - as far as I am aware.

Separately, I don't think new buildings should have to 'fit in' with the existing historic buildings. I think they should be required sometimes not to mimic, imitate and replicate older structures. And in fact, perhaps be brave enough to stand out from their historic context. It all depends on location and context I guess.

mire

The FAS building was never subject to a planning permission. It was a government project that did not go through the usual planning process - as far as I am aware.

Separately, I don't think new buildings should have to 'fit in' with the existing historic buildings. I think they should be required sometimes not to mimic, imitate and replicate older structures. And in fact, perhaps be brave enough to stand out from their historic context. It all depends on location and context I guess.

flo8s967qjh0nd

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

Very True - not to mention the out of character and unsightly public street lighting apparently inspired by a certain individual named: Beth Gali based on a similar design of work previously done in Tenerife. They started with Patrick Street and then went on to the Grand Parade and so on but Cork would probably have done better with a design and style that was more in keeping with our city streetscapes.

I totally disagree with this. Those lamps are about the only thing making Patrick Street/Grand Parade unique anymore. I'm really delighted with them.

moyners

Tenley Gray Gemstone wrote: »

I totally disagree with this. Those lamps are about the only thing making Patrick Street/Grand Parade unique anymore. I'm really delighted with them.

I have to say I love the lights too, they're really interesting and help make the broadest parts of Patricks Street and Grand Parade less barren looking

DylanGLC

Is this ever going ahead?

Rhinohippo

DylanGLC wrote: »

Is this ever going ahead?

I hope so as I was just remarking this weekend how awful the building looks. It appears to have been left to go into semi dereliction.

KCAccidental

The artists have moved out of the building, so I imagine something will happen soon.

DylanGLC

I was reading over the thread and surprised at people not liking the design. I actually don't mind the building which is there now. It is definitely not something I would choose if asked what should go in there, but there is something about it that seems.. nice? I guess? I don't know, but the new building I think looks really nice, I like the brown colour of it and the glass*. I also really like the height. I love high rise but I don't think high rise would work in that area of Cork (save it for the docklands), but it is still bigger than most buildings in the area.

*I especially like it from this angle, it looks much better than the current all grey building http://corkcitycentre.ie/sullivans-quay/ It might look a little out of place at first, but with The Capitol not far away, the eventual Events Centre, whatever else is supposed to happen in the Brewery Quarter, One Albert Quay, the new Merchant's Quay, Trinity Quarter (?), Navigation Square, Anderson's Quay and whatever else people have planned for the docklands and the rest of the city, it will eventually fit in very nicely

Rhinohippo

Hopefully they will rejuvenate it in some way as it's so incredibly shabby now and it's in such a prominent position.

KCAccidental

Rhinohippo wrote: »

Hopefully they will rejuvenate it in some way as it's so incredibly shabby now and it's in such a prominent position.

The present building will be demolished. Needs to be done soon though.

Rhinohippo

KCAccidental wrote: »

The present building will be demolished. Needs to be done soon though.

Totally agree.

DylanGLC

I hope by the new school year (I feel that is a realistic amount of time for them to start demolishing and building - of course with announcements before then - but this thread is quite old so you never know). Maybe they'll announce it this week along with hopefully the government giving the extra money to the Event Centre, as they decided to have the Boland's Quay development announcement last week. Exciting times

JupiterKid

So it was built in the mid 1980s? Really? It looks like it came straight out of the early 1970s. Very dated even for its time. But Cork city centre doesn't have all that many large modernist buildings.

opus

As far as I've heard nothing can happen there 'til the term finishes for the Crawford College of Art so guess sometime in late May/early June.

the beer revolu

JupiterKid wrote: »

So it was built in the mid 1980s? Really? It looks like it came straight out of the early 1970s. Very dated even for its time. But Cork city centre doesn't have all that many large modernist buildings.

That would be about right.
Look at pictures of Irish people in the 90s - they look pure 80s.

I'm one of the few people I know who really likes the building that is there now. Needs some tlc but it has wonderful lines imo