Gardai with guns!

BattleCorp

kerry4sam wrote: »

I've always been anti-gun ownership, but just cannot help but think this may be the way to go,

I'm kind of curious. Why are you anti-gun ownership?

Many of us use our guns safely. Some use guns for hunting, some use them for target shooting, and some for vermin control.

If they are being used by sensible, responsible people who store them securely when not in use, and only use them for lawful purposes, then what's the problem with people owning guns?

Piliger

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm kind of curious. Why are you anti-gun ownership?

Many of us use our guns safely. Some use guns for hunting, some use them for target shooting, and some for vermin control.

If they are being used by sensible, responsible people who store them securely when not in use, and only use them for lawful purposes, then what's the problem with people owning guns?

America.

mynamejeff

i have two legally held fire arms that i use mostly for target shooting , i would love to have the option of a option of owning a handgun as well,
the fact that a couple of hundred million retards in america can not be trusted shouldn't restrict my ability in that way.


as for the police having guns specifically revolvers , well the likelihood of needing to use a gun is slim and if they have to use it im sure they would rather be certain its gona work.

when was the last time the gardai shot some one who really didn't need shooting ?

BattleCorp

Piliger wrote: »

America.

This isn't America. You can't compare us with them.

It isn't easy to get a firearm in Ireland. There's a huge amount of hoops that you have to jump through.

We have to prove that we are of good character, no intemperate habits, won't be a danger to public safety etc etc.

We have to give permission for the authorities to speak to our doctor (in case we are mentally unstable, alcohol or drug dependent, suffer from severe depression etc etc.

We have to give character references.

We have to prove that we need the firearm and not that we just want the firearm. If it's target shooting, we need to provide evidence of being a member of an authorised range. If it's hunting, we need to provide evidence of where we are allowed to shoot, land permissions etc.

We have to prove that we are proficient with firearms (that means that we need some sort of formal training to prove we are safe with the firearm).

We can't put our firearms under our pillow or up on the wall. We have secure storage laws that dictate my firearms have to be kept in a BS 7558 standard safe when not in use. I must also have a monitored alarm on my house.

It isn't a right to have a firearm like in America. We are allowed firearms if we have need of them and if An Garda Siochana or the courts allow us to have them.

And another difference is that we aren't allowed a gun for self defence.

There are about 200,000 legally held firearms here in Ireland and there isn't a problem with them.

It's the illegal firearms in the hands of scumbags that you need to worry about.

BattleCorp

mynamejeff wrote: »

i have two legally held fire arms that i use mostly for target shooting , i would love to have the option of a option of owning a handgun as well,

You can apply for a handgun. As long as it is a .22 for target shooting, then there's no problem.

MadsL

mynamejeff wrote: »

the fact that a couple of hundred million retards in america can not be trusted

There are millions of responsible gun owners in the US.

Dont call me Shirley

Given what we know about the activities of the Gardai in the last 20 years or so I don't think it's an exaggeration of any sort to describe them as the largest criminal organisation in the state.

The more of them carrying guns there are the more worrying it is for the decent law abiding citizens of this country.

Pataman

Dont call me Shirley wrote: »

Given what we know about the activities of the Gardai in the last 20 years or so I don't think it's an exaggeration of any sort to describe them as the largest criminal organisation in the state.

The more of them carrying guns there are the more worrying it is for the decent law abiding citizens of this country.

Really??
A tiny minority of bad 'uns. Just like everywhere else in society.

Do you need a bigger tar brush?

MadsL

Dont call me Shirley wrote: »

Given what we know about the activities of the Gardai in the last 20 years or so I don't think it's an exaggeration of any sort to describe them as the largest criminal organisation in the state.

Shirley, you can't be serious.

mynamejeff

BattleCorp wrote: »

You can apply for a handgun. As long as it is a .22 for target shooting, then there's no problem.

this i know , however , its even more difficult and expensive to get a licence for one,

having fired a few on ranges it really isnt worth it , i ll stick to me rifle and shottie thanks.

Piliger

Dont call me Shirley wrote: »

Given what we know about the activities of the Gardai in the last 20 years or so I don't think it's an exaggeration of any sort to describe them as the largest criminal organisation in the state.

The more of them carrying guns there are the more worrying it is for the decent law abiding citizens of this country.

Wow I didn't realise we were doing comedy in After Hours

Kirby

I went to school with people who are now Gardaí and the thought of them carrying guns around fills me with dread.

Regular police have absolutely no need for a gun. Special response units and taskforces yes, regular cops no.

Witcher

Kirby wrote: »

Regular police have absolutely no need for a gun. Special response units and taskforces yes, regular cops no.

Your many years of service in AGS helped you come to this conclusion I'm sure.

Canyon86

Dont call me Shirley wrote: »

Given what we know about the activities of the Gardai in the last 20 years or so I don't think it's an exaggeration of any sort to describe them as the largest criminal organisation in the state.

The more of them carrying guns there are the more worrying it is for the decent law abiding citizens of this country.

Wow! That's some statement!

Kirby

Strider wrote: »

Your many years of service in AGS helped you come to this conclusion I'm sure.

And your own passion for guns in no way shapes your opinion on the matter I'm sure.

I mean, a person who owns and fires guns thinking the Gardaí should be armed is such a surprise. I was shocked. You are not one bit biased when it comes to gun law. No siree!

Witcher

Kirby wrote: »

And your own passion for guns in no way shapes your opinion on the matter I'm sure.

I mean, a person who owns and fires guns thinking the Gardaí should be armed is such a surprise. I was shocked. You are not one bit biased when it comes to gun law. No siree!

'passion for guns'...christ. I don't make decisions for the Gardai like you seem to want to. Operational need should determine what equipment is available to the force.

Search this thread, I haven't stated once that I think the Gardai should be armed. I just don't think someone who has never been in AGS should speak with such certainty about what the force needs or does not need.

That was a nice strawman though.

harry Bailey esq

MadsL wrote: »

Ah the famous myth of the "unarmed" Gardai




Would you prefer six shots or 17 shots if your life depended on it?

[

one shot would do :cool:

Manic Moran

Kirby wrote: »

Regular police have absolutely no need for a gun. Special response units and taskforces yes, regular cops no.

No, they don't, until they do. Having a special response unit only a radio call away doesn't do you much good for the two minutes (or whatever) until they get there. Even if it's an unlikely event, that's small consolation to the statistical exception when it happens to them.

Fukuyama

Manic Moran wrote: »

No, they don't, until they do. Having a special response unit only a radio call away doesn't do you much good for the two minutes (or whatever) until they get there. Even if it's an unlikely event, that's small consolation to the statistical exception when it happens to them.

It's hard to see an Irish criminal, scum that they are, kill an unarmed guard. Most know damn well that it'd be life in prison with feck all chance of parole. If the garda doesn't have a gun they can just point theirs at them to make a getaway. Highly unlikely they'd fire at an unarmed guard.

If the garda had a gun then suddenly the "getaway" scenario has turned into a potential shootout scenario. One, if not both of them, will wind up shot. Hypothetically, Adrian Donohoe might have lived if he didn't try to take on the robbers in Dundalk (which was a brave and commendable thing to do). If possible, a follow up raid or tactical arrest by the ERU would have been better, stacking the odds in the favour of the gardaí who have bigger, better weapons and top notch training.

I was robbed at gunpoint when I worked in a petrol station three years ago now. In the heat of the moment I'd of loved every armed guard and soldier in the country to zipline/paraglide/jetpack down from nowhere and riddle your man. Put with a calm head I'm glad the only gun was in the hand of the robber (who wound up getting nothing anyways - counter was behind glass and just leaped into the office). He ran away and the detectives (who arrived within a few minutes) took a guess at who it was based on our info, put his door in that night, arrested him and retrieved the gun and I assume your man was put in jail. Not a single shot fired.

There was also the incident at the RIRA funeral in North Dublin a few years back when handguns were fired over the coffin or something. Many people were shocked that the garda didn't wade into a huge crowed with live ammo just to stop a few lads with handguns. Instead the detectives and whatever other secretive units were monitoring the funeral made follow up arrests and retrieved the weapons.

This is how I want armed policing conducted in Ireland.

Piliger

Manic Moran wrote: »

No, they don't, until they do. Having a special response unit only a radio call away doesn't do you much good for the two minutes (or whatever) until they get there. Even if it's an unlikely event, that's small consolation to the statistical exception when it happens to them.

That may be so, but the function of the Gardai is to society as a whole. It is a truly wonderful thing that we in Ireland have managed to almost eradicate guns among the population here and long may it continue.

Fukuyama

Piliger wrote: »

That may be so, but the function of the Gardai is to society as a whole. It is a truly wonderful thing that we in Ireland have managed to almost eradicate guns among the population here and long may it continue.

Exactly. And I'm pretty sure it was a founding principal of the guards to not have guns so that they could be, at their heart, a community police force.

That way, they weren't a direct target for the anti-treaty IRA and could police the country. And if some group wants a fight they had to deal with the Army who have big guns, more of them and the support of the population.

Obviously tactical units are needed, but I think this principal applies in modern Ireland as it did in 1922.

Santa Cruz

Dean0088 wrote: »

Exactly. And I'm pretty sure it was a founding principal of the guards to not have guns so that they could be, at their heart, a community police force.

That way, they weren't a direct target for the anti-treaty IRA and could police the country. And if some group wants a fight they had to deal with the Army who have big guns, more of them and the support of the population.

Obviously tactical units are needed, but I think this principal applies in modern Ireland as it did in 1922.

Not having guns didn't stop the Anti Treaty IRA from murdering some of them anyway but that was the price paid for having an unarmed police force that became acceptable to the people

fran17

Everybody knows that the Gardaí use small calibre guns because the barrels are a good size to clean there ears with.

Manic Moran

Dean0088 wrote: »

It's hard to see an Irish criminal, scum that they are, kill an unarmed guard. Most know damn well that it'd be life in prison with feck all chance of parole. If the garda doesn't have a gun they can just point theirs at them to make a getaway. Highly unlikely they'd fire at an unarmed guard.

"Highly unlikely"?

Wasn't it only two weeks ago a chap in Kinsale took a couple of potsots at Gardai? Fortunately for them, he missed, and they fell back to await the arrival of the RSU. Relying on the other guy to miss, and then for your friends with guns to show up before he rectifies that situation is not a particularly reassuring plan of action.

It is not hard to find instances of people taking pot shots at unarmed Gardai. It may be rare that one is actually killed (less rare that they're hit), but, again, that's not much consolation to Gardai who find themselves unable to react to a lethal threat.

UCDVet

I can respect both sides of gun debates....those who are for guns and those who are against. But what kills me is when people think it's okay for cops to carry guns, but not 'regular' folk like myself.

We have a special forces unit with guns....why do regular cops need guns? Because criminals have guns and sometimes a radio call/phone call isn't enough. They need a gun to respond immediately.

So, why don't *I* need a gun? Because cops will protect me?

Then why couldn't the special forces Gardai protect the regular Gardai?

Fukuyama

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Not having guns didn't stop the Anti Treaty IRA from murdering some of them anyway but that was the price paid for having an unarmed police force that became acceptable to the people

A risky tactic but I'd argue that it has served the country well by indeed making AGS acceptable to the Irish people, and alienating armed groups such as the anti-treaty IRA, PIRA and now whatever new concoction of IRA groups have formed over the last decade.

AFAIK, the PIRA leadership forbid direct attacks against Gardaí and Irish soldiers because they knew it'd kill any support they had in the Republic. Obviously incidents happened when they collided but overall the gardaí have mostly been left alone during all conflicts on this Island - particularly post 1930s.

Kirby

Strider wrote: »

'passion for guns'...christ. I don't make decisions for the Gardai like you seem to want to. Operational need should determine what equipment is available to the force.

Search this thread, I haven't stated once that I think the Gardai should be armed. I just don't think someone who has never been in AGS should speak with such certainty about what the force needs or does not need.

That was a nice strawman though.

It's not a strawman. You attacked my opinion because you feel because I'm not a Guard, my view is invalid. Fine.

But the same should also apply to you. It's a two way street. As an owner and proponent of guns, your own views on guns are clouded and biased and I'm going to dismiss them the same way you have mine.

BattleCorp

Piliger wrote: »

That may be so, but the function of the Gardai is to society as a whole. It is a truly wonderful thing that we in Ireland have managed to almost eradicate guns among the population here and long may it continue.

You're sort of right.

The Gardai are doing their best to remove guns from law abiding target shooters and people like that but they are having fcukall success removing the problem guns from scumbag criminals who get them smuggled in with drug shipments.

Witcher

Kirby wrote: »

It's not a strawman. You attacked my opinion because you feel because I'm not a Guard, my view is invalid. Fine.

But the same should also apply to you. It's a two way street. As an owner and proponent of guns, your own views on guns are clouded and biased and I'm going to dismiss them the same way you have mine.

I haven't posted any opinions for or against the Gardai being armed on this thread so therefore my opinion cannot be biased.

My status as a firearms owner is none of your business frankly, it has no bearing on anything I've said on this thread. If you'd said the Gardai 'absolutely don't need' new stabs vests etc. I'd have called you on it the same way.

Kirby

Strider wrote: »

I haven't posted any opinions for or against the Gardai being armed on this thread so therefore my opinion cannot be biased.

You own and fire guns. Your opinion on the use of guns is clearly biased because of this. So if you are going to discount my opinion because I am not a police officer, I'm going to discount yours for being a gun nut.

See how this works? I'm betting you wished you hadn't made that comment now. Instead of debating the issue, you made a ridiculous statement that only Gardaí should have an opinion on Gardaí gun usage.