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Most Americans believe torture can be justified - poll

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    #242
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,434 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    So?

    Oil is a vital resource and its better to have western powers watching over it than some of the more untrustworthy locals.

    It's also a resource that belongs to the locals, should Ireland get invaded for the Corrib gas fields or if oil is found offshore?


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    #243
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    It's also a resource that belongs to the locals, should Ireland get invaded for the Corrib gas fields or if oil is found offshore?

    I would not trust the people in the Middle East to wash up right before dinner never mind look after one of the most current vital minerals on the planet.

    The Irish government was smart and sold the gas fields off for a good price which is good business for a country like ours which is less than 100 years old.


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    #244
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,434 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    I would not trust the people in the Middle East to wash up right before dinner never mind look after one of the most current vital minerals on the planet.

    The Irish government was smart and sold the gas fields off for a good price which is good business for a country like ours which is less than 100 years old.

    The countries of the middle east seemed to manage fine for the last few decades before the west went in and ****ed things up. The Irish government in all.of their stupidity literally GAVE the oil rights away so don't even try pretend they have done a great deal there.


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    #245
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    So?

    Oil is a vital resource and its better to have western powers watching over it than some of the more untrustworthy locals.
    even if it means mass rape and slaughter, and rivers of blood running wild in these countries, all so the US arms industry can be kept in business?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #246
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    I would not trust the people in the Middle East to wash up right before dinner never mind look after one of the most current vital minerals on the planet.

    The Irish government was smart and sold the gas fields off for a good price which is good business for a country like ours which is less than 100 years old.
    sold them off for a pittence more like. hardly good business considering what we could get. but never mind as long as the leaches get their cut

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #247
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    end of the road wrote: »
    even if it means mass rape and slaughter, and rivers of blood running wild in these countries, all so the US arms industry can be kept in business?

    When things are good in the USA they are good on this side of the world.


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    #248
    wylie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 462 ✭✭wylie


    end of the road wrote: »
    even if it means mass rape and slaughter, and rivers of blood running wild in these countries, all so the US arms industry can be kept in business?

    What mass rape and slaughter? Source please


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    #249
    raze_them_all_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,744 ✭✭✭raze_them_all_


    wylie wrote: »
    What mass rape and slaughter? Source please

    check out vietnam


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    #250
    wylie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 462 ✭✭wylie


    raze_them_all_ wrote: »
    check out vietnam

    No thanks, different war.


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    #251
    raze_them_all_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,744 ✭✭✭raze_them_all_


    wylie wrote: »
    No thanks, different war.

    Same country involved.


    And at present america currently has a presence in 4 different wars, or are we only allowed to talk about 1?


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    #252
    wylie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 462 ✭✭wylie


    It would seem you are right, there is evidence of mass rape during war. ww2, bosnia, yugoslavia and the gulf war. thats shocking. Afghanistan had 160 reported cases in 2013, although they expect this figure to be much higher, but people are afraid of the taliban. So don't complain.


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    #253
    raze_them_all_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,744 ✭✭✭raze_them_all_


    wylie wrote: »
    It would seem you are right, there is evidence of mass rape during war. ww2, bosnia, yugoslavia and the gulf war. thats shocking. Afghanistan had 160 reported cases in 2013, although they expect this figure to be much higher, but people are afraid of the taliban. So don't complain.

    lol I am not afraid of the taliban in the slightest.

    So don't complain about rape because some people are afraid of a couple of lads in a cave.



    Good logic


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    #254
    wylie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 462 ✭✭wylie


    raze_them_all_ wrote: »
    lol I am not afraid of the taliban in the slightest.

    So don't complain about rape because some people are afraid of a couple of lads in a cave.



    Good logic

    Do you think i am saying "don't complain about rape because of the taliban"


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    #255
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    So by that reckoning you have just justified suicide bombing.

    You're truly abysmal at this.

    In the context of torture, everyone has a line they will cross to try and obtain information, to claim otherwise is hypocrisy and naive.

    In my case, while generally against torture, should there be a serious threat to my children, and a person in front of me has information, however little, that might obviate that risk, may his gods help him.

    No where have I justified suicide bombing, although I am sure they justify it to themselves.


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    #256
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    wylie wrote: »
    The IRA went after military targets and army personal, plus they gave 30 min warnings in most cases so as to limit casualties, i understand this didn't always work, but they never went directly after children or cutting the heads off innocent people on TV to make a political statement.

    Torturing someone can only work if the information can be verified. Locations of terrorist cells,weapon caches and financier's. Torturing someone about a previous terror act is pointless as everyone would have a breaking point and admit to anything.

    If the IRA was cutting the heads of people and suicide bombings etc then hell yeah. Torture the s**t out of them.
    You really would want to read about the no warning bombings of Birmingham and Enniskillen, the murder of a six month old baby of a British soldier and countless executions of innocent people carried out by the Provos.


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    #257
    wylie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 462 ✭✭wylie


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    You really would want to read about the no warning bombings of Birmingham and Enniskillen, the murder of a six month old baby of a British soldier and countless executions of innocent people carried out by the Provos.

    As i said in my post "I understand it didn't always work and in most cases warnings were giving", but tbh we could sit here and point fingers about atrocity's carried out by both sides during the troubles.


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    #258
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I have a rock here that keeps terrorists away, if it can save lives what's the harm in keeping the rock close by? What if the question the torturer is asking is "are you a terrorist?"

    The other problem with torturing extremist terrorists is they tend to be isolated into their own cells so they don't have any information about the rest of the network.

    Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock.


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    #259
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,434 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    You're truly abysmal at this.

    In the context of torture, everyone has a line they will cross to try and obtain information, to claim otherwise is hypocrisy and naive.

    In my case, while generally against torture, should there be a serious threat to my children, and a person in front of me has information, however little, that might obviate that risk, may his gods help him.

    No where have I justified suicide bombing, although I am sure they justify it to themselves.

    But what if you only THINK that person has information? Do you torture and jail an innocent person on the off chance that maybe they hold some information? If i show up.with Mohammed xxxxxx tomorrow and claim he is Taliban and has info on training camps and possible suicide bombers how long will YOU be willing to hold and torture this man without any other shred of evidence?


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    #260
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    But what if you only THINK that person has information? Do you torture and jail an innocent person on the off chance that maybe they hold some information? If i show up.with Mohammed xxxxxx tomorrow and claim he is Taliban and has info on training camps and possible suicide bombers how long will YOU be willing to hold and torture this man without any other shred of evidence?
    As I said I'm.generally anti torture, or indeed inflicting pain on others unless my kids were threatened.
    In the above, the first thing I'd ask you is "what's your evidence"?


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    #261
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,434 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    As I said I'm.generally anti torture, or indeed inflicting pain on others unless my kids were threatened.
    In the above, the first thing I'd ask you is "what's your evidence"?

    But America has not needed evidence, what if i claim telling you would compromise other operations i have going?


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    #262
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    Torture is disgusting.


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    #263
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    wylie wrote: »
    Asking someone whom you suspect is a terrorist "are you are terrorist" is a pretty redundant question, but asking questions like were did you get the RPG might help, Who should you how to make the bomb.

    American torturers wouldn't need to ask such questions. They'll know the answer already...America.

    :pac:


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    #264
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    But America has not needed evidence, what if i claim telling you would compromise other operations i have going?

    What if indeed.


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    #265
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,434 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    What if indeed.

    What if indeed
    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    As I said I'm.generally anti torture, or indeed inflicting pain on others unless my kids were threatened.
    In the above, the first thing I'd ask you is "what's your evidence"?


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    #266
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    What if indeed

    & if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle

    we both appear to be anti torture, but in my case I will readily admit there is a line I would cross in certain circumstances. you have yet to indicate if such a line exists for yourself.

    not sure what point you're making really, consistently trotting out anti US, antiIsrael, anti-capitalism, anti-imperialism left wing cliches, replete with whataboutery and other false dilemmas. There seem to be few genuine opinions of your own offered.
    Is 2nd Soc&Pol this limited these days?


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    #267
    Tin Foil Hat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Tin Foil Hat


    Tzardine wrote: »
    Absolutely it is justifiable.

    It's the reality of the world we live in. If the torture of a person leads to the prevention of killing of innocent people then what is the problem.

    Nice, law obiding people rarely get tortured.

    Go back a few hundred year and you'll find plenty of examples of people who will admit to being witches under torture. People who will give up their mothers and sisters as being witches under torture. People who will literally confess to possessing supernatural gifts, such as the gift of flight, under torture.
    People who consider information obtained under torture as reliable information should be stripped of their vote, barred from public office and barred from any job with more responsibility than assembling fast food burgers.


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    #268
    NotASheeple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 424 ✭✭NotASheeple


    Tzardine wrote: »
    It's the reality of the world we live in.

    Yes but only if your either a fanatical Neocon fruitcake or an ISIS supporting nut job.


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    #269
    Streetwalker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭Streetwalker


    MRnotlob606 wrote: »
    Torture is disgusting.

    Agreed. It can never be justified.


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    #270
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,434 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    & if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle

    we both appear to be anti torture, but in my case I will readily admit there is a line I would cross in certain circumstances. you have yet to indicate if such a line exists for yourself.

    Is there a point where i would be willing to let someone be tortured in the off chance that the methods used will force that person to tell the truth? No, simply because (as has been pointed out several times already) confessions that have been extracted using torture means nothing.

    I could strap you to a chair today and by midnight have you confessing to being the mastermind behind 9-11, JFK assassination and global warming. The confession will be worthless simply because it was forced from you but some seem to think this is a viable method of "stopping terrorism"
    not sure what point you're making really, consistently trotting out anti US, antiIsrael, anti-capitalism, anti-imperialism left wing cliches, replete with whataboutery and other false dilemmas. There seem to be few genuine opinions of your own offered.
    Is 2nd Soc&Pol this limited these days?

    I'm not anti American i am anti American foreign policy

    I'm not anti Israeli i am anti Israeli government policy of murdering kids.

    Not anti capitalism i am against the theft of resources and the starting of wars/the murder of innocent people and the removal of governments and leaders to suit agendas.


    Anti imperialism for sure, do you agree with Russia's take over of Ukraine? Would you be ok if China decided to just move in and take Taiwan? North Korea to move south? How about Britain decides it wants Ireland back? Or does imperialism only make sense when there is oil and other natural resources at hand?


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    #271
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Is there a point where i would be willing to let someone be tortured in the off chance that the methods used will force that person to tell the truth? No, simply because (as has been pointed out several times already) confessions that have been extracted using torture means nothing.

    I could strap you to a chair today and by midnight have you confessing to being the mastermind behind 9-11, JFK assassination and global warming. The confession will be worthless simply because it was forced from you but some seem to think this is a viable method of "stopping terrorism"



    I'm not anti American i am anti American foreign policy

    I'm not anti Israeli i am anti Israeli government policy of murdering kids.

    Not anti capitalism i am against the theft of resources and the starting of wars/the murder of innocent people and the removal of governments and leaders to suit agendas.


    Anti imperialism for sure, do you agree with Russia's take over of Ukraine? Would you be ok if China decided to just move in and take Taiwan? North Korea to move south? How about Britain decides it wants Ireland back? Or does imperialism only make sense when there is oil and other natural resources at hand?

    noted.
    I'm not going to engage in whatifery with you, but everyone has a line they would cross, despite any moral assertions to the contrary from the comfort of their bedrooms in nice safe Ireland, safe because of the likes of the Americans and British foreign policies.

    BTW, Israel doesn't have a policy of murdering kids; just think about it, and how its not in their interests. That said, kids do get killed in the conflict, and its terrible.


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