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Most Americans believe torture can be justified - poll

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    #332
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    What treaty are you talking about?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_against_Torture
    Almost very country in the world has signed some treaty against torture.

    Interestingly - a fairly significant number of them seem to break the treaty when it suites them:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_torture_since_1948

    From what I understand, the treaty is worded fairly vaguely so that leaves a lot of governments room to lawyer and claim that what THEY did wasn't really torture. I'm not sure, but I think that's what the US was doing, at least at one point in time.

    I remember a big debate over whether or not waterboarding was torture.


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    #333
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Who signed that?

    156 states at the last count.

    Including Ireland, but we didn't ratify until 2002.


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    #334
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    UCDVet wrote: »
    Well, you asked me if I supported torturing people suspected of a crime.


    It seems pretty relevant. Someone could certainly support the torture of a CONVICTED criminal, but not of a suspected criminal. And of course, plenty of people are against both.

    I asked you if you supported someone SUSPECTED of a crime in order to extract a confession. Why would anyone torture someone CONVICTED of a crime? Are you talking about the employment of torture as part of their punishment? Convicted criminals are not stripped of their right to be free from torture or cruel, degrading and inhumane treatment.


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    #335
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    I quoted wrong post sorry i meant to ask pro torture people
    fair enough

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #336
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Who signed that?

    It's been signed and ratified but almost every nation on earth. You could read up on it.


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    #337
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,964 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    Egginacup wrote: »
    I asked you if you supported someone SUSPECTED of a crime in order to extract a confession. Why would anyone torture someone CONVICTED of a crime? Are you talking about the employment of torture as part of their punishment? Convicted criminals are not stripped of their right to be free from torture or cruel, degrading and inhumane treatment.


    An obvious example would be a convicted serial killer to disclose other incidents or location of bodies.

    Lets take Larry Murphy for example. Some people strongly believe he killed before and is still dangerous so if you are an advocate for torture this is a no-brainer. Torturing him may save lives and if not well who cares?


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    #338
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    An obvious example would be a convicted serial killer to disclose other incidents or location of bodies.

    Lets take Larry Murphy for example. Some people strongly believe he killed before and is still dangerous so if you are an advocate for torture this is a no-brainer. Torturing him may save lives and if not well who cares?
    because it won't save lives, lead to false information, and is as bad as the crime he is suspected of commiting. only savages therefore would support torturing the likes of him

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #339
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    end of the road wrote: »
    because it won't save lives, lead to false information, and is as bad as the crime he is suspected of comiting. only savages therefore would support torturing the likes of him

    Normally I would agree with you but the case against Larry "the lamb" Murphy was a bit damning. What with the girl being trussed up in a boot of a car in the middle of the night up the Dublin mountains... is sort of a bad example to make a case.

    But hey Larry probably had a good excuse for it. Normally using torture to extract information is counter productive. Most professional interrogators will tell you they have gotten better results with a smile and a can of coke. However in a certain Wicklow mans case ... there were a lot of girls with very old fathers that need answers and closure.


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    #340
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Egginacup wrote: »
    It's been signed and ratified but almost every nation on earth. You could read up on it.

    Signed and practicing it is a very different matter. Every country in the world says "oh we want to get rid of mines (land mines)", but how many armies of legitimate governments are buying them at £3 a pop.

    Here is a better statistic the biggest producers of Landmines are permanent members on the UN Security council.


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    #341
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Normally I would agree with you but the case against Larry "the lamb" Murphy was a bit damning. What with the girl being trussed up in a boot of a car in the middle of the night up the Dublin mountains... is sort of a bad example to make a case.

    But hey Larry probably had a good excuse for it. Normally using torture to extract information is counter productive. Most professional interrogators will tell you they have gotten better results with a smile and a can of coke. However in a certain Wicklow mans case ... there were a lot of girls with very old fathers that need answers and closure.
    and torturing him won't get those answers, as chances are he had nothing to do with them. if he did there would be some evidence, there isn't. torture is counter productive

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #342
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,964 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    I'm not certain that torture would fail to get some information from him if indeed he did anything else which we don't know. Equally of course the police could spend months in various locations on pointless digs.

    Btw I'm not an advocate for torture in any circumstance but if you are in the end justifies the means camp I don't know why you'd only use torture for terrorism.


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    #343
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    end of the road wrote: »
    and torturing him won't get those answers, as chances are he had nothing to do with them. if he did there would be some evidence, there isn't. torture is counter productive

    Did you ever hear about the case of the dog who only bit once? ... didnt think so.

    The Guards denied before he was ever caught that there was a serial killer in the South Leinster Area. We have seen recently Irish police (while I think are miles better than their international counterparts) are not always the quickest of cats. I have no doubt the sparsely populated area of the Dublin mountains are filled with innocent and not so innocent alike. Larry Murphy was no choir boy. And there are many more Larry Murphys out there. Innocents have a priority and not so innocent like over due drug debts and loose ends maybe less so.


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    #344
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    the police could spend months in various locations on pointless digs.

    Digs cost money... they cost Garda time, expertise, outside contracted expertise, coroners office..... every bit of information should be treated like gold. Every recovered body is priceless to some family.


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    #345
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    I'm not certain that torture would fail to get some information from him if indeed he did anything else which we don't know. Equally of course the police could spend months in various locations on pointless digs.

    Btw I'm not an advocate for torture in any circumstance but if you are in the end justifies the means camp I don't know why you'd only use torture for terrorism.
    i don't condone torture in any situation. you will get nothing from him. digging is the best bet

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #346
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Digs cost money... they cost Garda time, expertise, outside contracted expertise, coroners office..... every bit of information should be treated like gold. Every recovered body is priceless to some family.
    all worth every penny

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #347
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,964 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    I mean more that under torture he would give fake locations to stop it which the police would then have to check.


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    #348
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Did you ever hear about the case of the dog who only bit once? ... didnt think so.

    whats that got to do with anything. if no evidence exists to say larry murphy did more then what we know then nothing can be done until such evidence comes to light. torturing his sort leads to no results.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    The Guards denied before he was ever caught that there was a serial killer in the South Leinster Area. We have seen recently Irish police (while I think are miles better than their international counterparts) are not always the quickest of cats.

    maybe they denied it because it isn't the case? i'm sure if there was they would have said.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I have no doubt the sparsely populated area of the Dublin mountains are filled with innocent and not so innocent alike. Larry Murphy was no choir boy. And there are many more Larry Murphys out there.

    who said he was a quire boy? yeah, of course they're are people like him out there whats your point?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #349
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    end of the road wrote: »
    i don't condone torture in any situation. you will get nothing from him. digging is the best bet

    area of Wicklow mountains is 3000km square?

    area of a Shallow grave 3m square ........

    That a lot of digging in an unspecified area.

    Wouldnt mind if Larry would give us a general hint to lest say 40 m sq.? Make a lot of people happy


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    #350
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    area of Wicklow mountains is 3000km square?

    area of a Shallow grave 3m square ........

    That a lot of digging in an unspecified area.

    Wouldnt mind if Larry would give us a general hint to lest say 40 m sq.? Make a lot of people happy
    or maybe, it wasn't him and he hasn't a clue. therefore torturing him is not an option.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #351
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Signed and practicing it is a very different matter. Every country in the world says "oh we want to get rid of mines (land mines)", but how many armies of legitimate governments are buying them at £3 a pop.

    Here is a better statistic the biggest producers of Landmines are permanent members on the UN Security council.

    We're talking about Americans here and their depressingly predictable penchant for hypocrisy and double standards. It's no secret that other countries routinely torture people just like the US does. But these nations don't have the gall to lecture the world about human rights and the rule of law like the US does. And before anyone tries to stick their oar in with the "you anti-America wanker", I say "no thanks. Not playing that game. That dog won't hunt."

    I can't say how I feel about landmines. Children to this day are still being killed and maimed by them. They are horrific weapons that kill and wound indiscriminately but without the use of landmines many resistance movements would never have defeated their occupiers.


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    #352
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    end of the road wrote: »
    whats that got to do with anything. if no evidence exists to say larry murphy did more then what we know then nothing can be done until such evidence comes to light. torturing his sort leads to no results.

    maybe they denied it because it isn't the case? i'm sure if there was they would have said.

    who said he was a quire boy? yeah, of course they're are people like him out there whats your point?

    if he does know anything .. then he will talk.

    Garda said there was organised crime importing drugs. they had a handle on the drugs problem.

    The point is Larry knows a lot more than he says and is hiding behind the right to not say anything. What do you think that girl was doing tied up in a car up the Dublin Mountains, late at night in the back of auld Mad larry boot? would you be panicked in that situation? I would be sugaring bricks and praying to god for a quick death.


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    #353
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    end of the road wrote: »
    or maybe, it wasn't him and he hasn't a clue.

    Maybe you should ask woman.... "Do you think Larry Murphy is a safe and reputable character, fit to walk among the people of Ireland freely?" .... go try sell that one to a woman and see where it gets you.

    I would say if you had a gathering of "Vindicate Larry Murphy and give him a citizens award" group , you would have a very empty house possibly less than the "We really need water charges and clean air tariffs "


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    #354
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    An obvious example would be a convicted serial killer to disclose other incidents or location of bodies.

    Lets take Larry Murphy for example. Some people strongly believe he killed before and is still dangerous so if you are an advocate for torture this is a no-brainer. Torturing him may save lives and if not well who cares?

    Wait a minute......the justification for torture has now gone from saving lives to finding the remains of those who are already dead? You know....unsaveable.


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    #355
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    if he does know anything .. then he will talk.

    yet he hasn't. so he probably doesn't know any more then that in relation to the girl in his boot which we all know about.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Garda said there was organised crime importing drugs. they had a handle on the drugs problem.

    they had to say, and have to continue to say, they had a handle on the problem to keep the general public happy. could you imagine what would have happened if they said or even now say the drugs problem can't and never will be defeated or kept under control?
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    The point is Larry knows a lot more than he says and is hiding behind the right to not say anything.

    no evidence of that claim exists.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    What do you think that girl was doing tied up in a car up the Dublin Mountains, late at night in the back of auld Mad larry boot?

    we all ready know why she was up there, because she told us herself and the evidence proves it. torturing him wouldn't change any of that or get us any more information about that case.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #356
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Maybe you should ask woman.... "Do you think Larry Murphy is a safe and reputable character, fit to walk among the people of Ireland freely?" .... go try sell that one to a woman and see where it gets you.
    I would say if you had a gathering of "Vindicate Larry Murphy and give him a citizens award" group , you would have a very empty house possibly less than the "We really need water charges and clean air tariffs "

    what has that got to do with the fact no evidence exists to prove larry murphy was involved in any other case then the one we know for sure? who said he was a safe and reputable character who is fit to walk among the people of Ireland freely? nobody. suggesting little to no evidence exists to prove his involvement in other cases does not mean he is a nice man loved by the people.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #357
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Regarding the title of this thread and how the majority of American are in favour of torture I would wonder that if that majority are in favour of this charming practice then the nation needs to seriously reassess all that they think:

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/classified-evidence-us-soldiers-raped-boys-in-front-of-their-mothers/200160/


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    #358
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    http://www.acting-man.com/blog/media/2014/12/dick-cheney-cartoon.jpg

    See everyone likes a bit of discipline. People pay good money for that sort of thing...


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    #359
    daUbiq
    Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭daUbiq


    Egginacup wrote: »
    Regarding the title of this thread and how the majority of American are in favour of torture I would wonder that if that majority are in favour of this charming practice then the nation needs to seriously reassess all that they think:

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/classified-evidence-us-soldiers-raped-boys-in-front-of-their-mothers/200160/

    Greedy scumbag bullies... raping boys in front of their mothers... It's disgusting... Any of our resident patriots like to defend this?


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    #360
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    end of the road wrote: »
    what has that got to do with the fact no evidence exists to prove larry murphy was involved in any other case then the one we know for sure? who said he was a safe and reputable character who is fit to walk among the people of Ireland freely? nobody. suggesting little to no evidence exists to prove his involvement in other cases does not mean he is a nice man loved by the people.

    Well for a guy claiming you have no alligence to him ... you spend a lot of time defending Larry there and his right to walk freely in our streets. Nice man loved by the people? They tried to evict his wife from Wicklow town a few years abck when he was getting out of Prison. She had to make a public appeal that he was not comiing back within an asses roar of the domestic house....... I think that defines public opinion and pressure.


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    #361
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Well for a guy claiming you have no alligence to him ... you spend a lot of time defending Larry there and his right to walk freely in our streets.

    bollox. i'm just telling it how it is, if you see that as defending, i couldn't care a less. i know i'm not defending him so thats all that matters.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Nice man loved by the people? They tried to evict his wife from Wicklow town a few years abck when he was getting out of Prison. She had to make a public appeal that he was not comiing back within an asses roar of the domestic house....... I think that defines public opinion and pressure.

    no, it defines the opinions of filthy low rent vermin who think they can do what they like and behave how they like. they exist up and down the country looking for an excuse to cause trouble and behave like the wild animals they are. larry murphies wife owes nobody anything.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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