Month and Week Decided this is getting Real

rochey84

Hey Guys,

Thought you might be interested in the below article. We're looking at the first week in May, anyone else nervous that voter apathy could work against us despite the huge numbers in the latest IPSOS/MRIB poll?

http://www.thejournal.ie/same-sex-marriage-referendum-3-1837922-Dec2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

Daith

rochey84 wrote: »

Hey Guys,

Thought you might be interested in the below article. We're looking at the first week in May, anyone else nervous that voter apathy could work against us despite the huge numbers in the latest IPSOS/MRIB poll?

Yes, the polls are meaningless.

Annasopra

Daith wrote: »

Yes, the polls are meaningless.

Absolutely and utterly useless.

Complacency and a false belief in polls will lose this referendum.

The thing is
1 if people assume it will be a landslide yes then those in favour of a yes will be less motivated to go out and vote. We cannot let any yes voter be complacent and make assumptions.
2 A large majority of voters in previous referenda decided how they would vote either in the week before or day before. The campaign is really early days so there could be something unexpected from the no side against us at the last minute.

hotmail.com

It's really annoying that they won't just hold the referendum tomorrow or next week, we have to wait another 6 months. Sigh, but suppose better is late than never.

I do think the poll lead is vulnerable at best and the final outcome will be very tight. I hope those in favour of equal marriage for gay people will actually come out and vote!

I also hope that no one uses the referendum as a way to damage the government.

Annasopra

hotmail.com wrote: »

It's really annoying that they won't just hold the referendum tomorrow or next week, we have to wait another 6 months. Sigh, but suppose better is late than never.

I do think the poll lead is vulnerable at best and the final outcome will be very tight. I hope those in favour of equal marriage for gay people will actually come out and vote!

I also hope that no one uses the referendum as a way to damage the government.

It needs to be in 6 months.

The family and children relationships needs to be law first.

Aard

If the Children and Family Relationships Bill is enacted, then one of the big selling points of civil marriage (adoption/children's matters) is largely dealt with right? So even if the referendum result is a 'no' it mightn't be the end of the world..


Regarding the polls figures.... I laugh when the Times reports something like 71% of people in favour of civil marriage. I don't know if the polls are done face-to-face or over the phone, but let's be honest -- it's kind of "in" right now to support gay rights so people will be more inclined to lie and say yes to any question on gay marriage etc. While if they were asked more anonymously they'd be more likely to say no.


Tbh I think the longer this is dragged out the better. If there was a referendum today, I'd be surprised if it wasn't 50-50 and a close call either way. 71-29 or similar would shock me. Once people stop worrying about their finances, pensions, negative equity, unemployment etc, they'll be more likely to vote yes on gay marriage. Seeing as the referendum route seems to be inevitable, I'd prefer if they'd wait until next summer at the earliest. People would be in a better mood with a better economy, and all the students would be at home to vote.

anonyanony

rochey84 wrote: »

Hey Guys,

Thought you might be interested in the below article. We're looking at the first week in May, anyone else nervous that voter apathy could work against us despite the huge numbers in the latest IPSOS/MRIB poll?

http://www.thejournal.ie/same-sex-marriage-referendum-3-1837922-Dec2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

Ok does gay marriage mean civil marriage not forcing the church to marry men in it? I will vote yes for the first but no if they are going to make the church do something don't want to. What do you get extra from it that's not in civil partnership?

Annasopra

anonyanony wrote: »

Ok does gay marriage mean civil marriage not forcing the church to marry men in it? I will vote yes for the first but no if they are going to make the church do something don't want to. What do you get extra from it that's not in civil partnership?

This is about equal civil marriage. It is nothing to do with the church and the church will not be forced to marry a gay couple.

The list of differences are here


http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

anonyanony

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

This is about equal civil marriage. It is nothing to do with the church and the church will not be forced to marry a gay couple.

The list of differences are here


http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

Ok that's fine I see marriage as the church thing and thought the civil partnership ment you had all the same but just kept the church out, the only other reason I would vote no is adaption does this mean you have to considered for adoption now?

Annasopra

Adoption will be bought in separately under the children/family relations bill so it doesnt matter whether you vote yes or no the government is going to bring adoption in before the referendum. So a yes or no vote wont affect adoption.

lyinghere

Can I suggest a productive excercise right here in the thread?

I'm imagining conversations with family and friends over the next few months where they ask my opinions on marriage equality. I don't want to give them just a "because I might want to get married " response. I know they would vote yes anyhow but I think we need to aim to ensure that these conversations ensure friends and family are not just voting yes out of obligation and loyalty to you - they need to fully understand why this is important so that they are ready to effectively pass on this message in their conversations

Suggestions?

I plan to sit down and gather my thoughts by writing it all down soon but this could be good to get the ball rolling for us all!

Why is Marriage Equality important to you? I know it sounds like such a duh question but I want my answer to be convincing !

anonyanony

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Adoption will be bought in separately under the children/family relations bill so it doesnt matter whether you vote yes or no the government is going to bring adoption in before the referendum. So a yes or no vote wont affect adoption.

Ok, I am leaning to a yes vote as it does not effect the church, will ask for reasons vote no on another board or site just encase there is something I am not thinking of.

eviltwin

anonyanony wrote: »

Ok that's fine I see marriage as the church thing and thought the civil partnership ment you had all the same but just kept the church out, the only other reason I would vote no is adaption does this mean you have to considered for adoption now?

Marriage has nothing to do with the church. Many straight couples have their weddings in a registry office or other approved location. Even if you do marry in a church you still have to have the state legitimise your union. A priest can't do that.

eviltwin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Adoption will be bought in separately under the children/family relations bill so it doesnt matter whether you vote yes or no the government is going to bring adoption in before the referendum. So a yes or no vote wont affect adoption.

Is that expected to happen before May ? I can see a lot of anti ssm groups manipulating voters by bringing in the adoption issue.

anonyanony

eviltwin wrote: »

Marriage has nothing to do with the church. Many straight couples have their weddings in a registry office or other approved location. Even if you do marry in a church you still have to have the state legitimise your union. A priest can't do that.

I know I just don't want them to be forced to do something they don't want to do, like that cake shop up the north that did not want to make the cake, they should not be forced to do something they disagree with.

anonyanony

eviltwin wrote: »

Is that expected to happen before May ? I can see a lot of anti ssm groups manipulating voters by bringing in the adoption issue.

Well I am on the fence and adoption is a big no for me but civil marriage is ok atm, but if the yes to marriage makes adoption easier it might make me vote no, so they are kinda linked and the questions should be brought up.

eviltwin

anonyanony wrote: »

Well I am on the fence and adoption is a big no for me but civil marriage is ok atm, but if the yes to marriage makes adoption easier it might make me vote no, so they are kinda linked and the questions should be brought up.

This is a red herring. Gay people can already adopt. Marriage will just give their family more security. They will still be subject to the same checks as straight people. Very few adoptions happen in Ireland, most are inter family.

anonyanony

eviltwin wrote: »

This is a red herring. Gay people can already adopt. Marriage will just give their family more security. They will still be subject to the same checks as straight people. Very few adoptions happen in Ireland, most are inter family.

Honestly I don't want to make it easier, I don't think gay or single straight or gay people should be allowed to adopt.

lyinghere

eviltwin wrote: »

This is a red herring. Gay people can already adopt. Marriage will just give their family more security. They will still be subject to the same checks as straight people. Very few adoptions happen in Ireland, most are inter family.

Isn't it worth considering here though. Poster has suggested that adoption is a big no. I'm interested to establish is there any reasoning behind this ?

I think this concern will come up over and over regardless and I'm taking note that of what evil twin is saying but I want to understand why someone says me adopting would be a big no to them .

eviltwin

anonyanony wrote: »

Honestly I don't want to make it easier, I don't think gay or single straight or gay people should be allowed to adopt.

They already can.

Annasopra

anonyanony wrote: »

I know I just don't want them to be forced to do something they don't want to do, like that cake shop up the north that did not want to make the cake, they should not be forced to do something they disagree with.

Its not about forcing the church to do anything

eviltwin

lyinghere wrote: »

Isn't it worth considering here though. Poster has suggested that adoption is a big no. I'm interested to establish is there any reasoning behind this ?

I think this concern will come up over and over regardless and I'm taking note that of what evil twin is saying but I want to understand why someone says me adopting would be a big no to them .

Children need a mother/father

Child will grow up gay

Gay men will adopt to abuse a child

It's just wrong

Take your pick.

Annasopra

anonyanony wrote: »

Honestly I don't want to make it easier, I don't think gay or single straight or gay people should be allowed to adopt.

Your decision on the referendum will not affect the adoption law!

anonyanony

lyinghere wrote: »

Isn't it worth considering here though. Poster has suggested that adoption is a big no. I'm interested to establish is there any reasoning behind this ?

I think this concern will come up over and over regardless and I'm taking note that of what evil twin is saying but I want to understand why someone says me adopting would be a big no to them .

You cannot provide a male and female upbringing for the kid, I don't think straight singles should be allowed to adopt either. I would go as far to say we should start the same system as england where they force take kids for mothers that cannot support them.

eviltwin

anonyanony wrote: »

You cannot provide a male and female upbringing for the kid, I don't think straight singles should be allowed to adopt either. I would go as far to say we should start the same system as england where they force take kids for mothers that cannot support them.

We tried the whole forced adoption before, look how that turned out.

Gay people don't live in a bubble, they have siblings, friends etc....the children will have plenty of role models of the opposite sex. Many children of gay parents are in contact with both their mother and father.

anonyanony

eviltwin wrote: »

We tried the whole forced adoption before, look how that turned out.

Gay people don't live in a bubble, they have siblings, friends etc....the children will have plenty of role models of the opposite sex. Many children of gay parents are in contact with both their mother and father.

Still don't support it or anything that will lead to it being made easier. I don't care about people being gay if it doesn't effect others hence the marriage thing is ok if place like halls and cakes shop can say we don't want to supply your cake or after party. I am guessing that is ok down here as they can say no to travelers so will be ok to say no to gays.

Annasopra

anonyanony wrote: »

Still don't support it or anything that will lead to it being made easier. I don't care about people being gay if it doesn't effect others hence the marriage thing is ok if place like halls and cakes shop can say we don't want to supply your cake or after party. I am guessing that is ok down here as they can say no to travelers so will be ok to say no to gays.

No. Equality legislation means you cannot refuse travellers or gay people access to goods or services.

But this is irrelevant to equal civil marriage.

eviltwin

anonyanony wrote: »

Still don't support it or anything that will lead to it being made easier. I don't care about people being gay if it doesn't effect others hence the marriage thing is ok if place like halls and cakes shop can say we don't want to supply your cake or after party. I am guessing that is ok down here as they can say no to travelers so will be ok to say no to gays.

How exactly do you think it will be easier? The hoops will be the same. The big difference is the security it will offer ie if the legal parent dies the child won't be in a legal limbo. You're talking tiny numbers anyway, less than 20 children were adopted into non biological families last year. Most adoptions are family adoptions which is always in the best interest of the child.

anonyanony

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. Equality legislation means you cannot refuse travellers or gay people access to goods or services.

But this is irrelevant to equal civil marriage.

Plenty of places won't do travelers marriages

eviltwin

anonyanony wrote: »

Plenty of places won't do travelers marriages

The state does not have a blanket ban on travellers marrying.

anonyanony

eviltwin wrote: »

The state does not have a blanket ban on travellers marrying.

I am talking about the after party, if a place has a religious or moral belief not to do a gay marriage party they as a business should be allowed to no, why are your rights more important to the businesses

eviltwin

anonyanony wrote: »

I am talking about the after party, if a place has a religious or moral belief not to do a gay marriage party they as a business should be allowed to no, why are your rights more important to the businesses

That's completely irrelevant to the issue.

Ten of Swords

anonyanony wrote: »

I am talking about the after party

That is not what the referendum is about though, is it?

spurious

The antis haven't pulled out their big guns yet. Expect a flagrant disregard for the truth or legal possibilities and never become complacent. They will get their voters out on the day.

anonyanony

Ten of Swords wrote: »

That is not what the referendum is about though, is it?

Well if the marriage proposal goes through it will mean more after parties and if businesses are forced to do something they don't wan't to it effects how I would chose to vote.

Annasopra

anonyanony wrote: »

Plenty of places won't do travelers marriages

And that is illegal

lyinghere

smear campaign with no basis in truth planted near the end of campaign planting serious seeds of doubt in the undecided minds - PENDING!

spurious wrote: »

The antis haven't pulled out their big guns yet. Expect a flagrant disregard for the truth or legal possibilities and never become complacent. They will get their voters out on the day.

Ten of Swords

anonyanony wrote: »

Well if the marriage proposal goes through it will mean more after parties and if businesses are forced to do something they don't wan't to it effects how I would chose to vote.

You're OK(ish) with the concept of marriage equality but not a gay after-party?

I like you

anonyanony

Ten of Swords wrote: »

You're OK(ish) with the concept of marriage equality but not a gay after-party?

I like you

I am all for personal rights as long as it does not infringe on others, I don't think the two getting married impacts on anyone other then themselves, but in things after if places are forced to do something then there freedom is being infringed I will say there will be plenty of places wanting to do gay after parties as it will be very good money, but if a place has a moral objection I want that to be respected.

Ten of Swords

anonyanony wrote: »

if a place has a moral objection I want that to be respected.

OK I do hear what you're saying but that is not on the table next year - it just isn't.

Unless an organisation can claim a section 37 exemption then they are obliged to provide their stated service(s) to anyone regardless of moral qualms.

anonyanony

Ten of Swords wrote: »

OK I do hear what you're saying but that is not on the table next year - it just isn't.

Unless an organisation can claim a section 37 exemption then they are obliged to provide their stated service(s) to anyone regardless of moral qualms.

The fact it's not respected makes me resent the people forcing businesses to do something, there would be plenty if not most that would want the business and makes me want to vote no to spite them, it's the main reason I hate the sjw types they try to remove other peoples freedoms to suit their agenda and I cannot support that.

eviltwin

anonyanony wrote: »

Well if the marriage proposal goes through it will mean more after parties and if businesses are forced to do something they don't wan't to it effects how I would chose to vote.

Really now, come on. We're how many years into civil partnerships and has that issue come up once? If the possibility of one or two business owners being put out by the thoughts of a gay reception overruled the rights of thousands of gay people that says a lot about where you stand.

Aard

Somebody mentioned upthread about getting the facts/argument straight for dealing with or convincing friends and family. I think this also applies to the many red herring arguments that are thrown around whenever gay anything is mentioned. Be prepared to walk away from arguing with somebody who doesn't want to listen. Some people just have some viewpoint stuck in their heads and will not listen to reason. Some people won't actually know what the referendum is about, but will have an opinion nonetheless. Not all are worth one's time and energy.

Ten of Swords

anonyanony wrote: »

The fact it's not respected makes me resent the people forcing businesses to do something

Whether you vote yes, no or not at all the law requiring businesses to treat everyone equally will not change

anonyanony

eviltwin wrote: »

Really now, come on. We're how many years into civil partnerships and has that issue come up once? If the possibility of one or two business owners being put out by the thoughts of a gay reception overruled the rights of thousands of gay people that says a lot about where you stand.

As I said majority would be happy to take it, forcing the minority to do something they don't want really annoys me, trying to get something by force and removal of personal freedom makes me resent the people pushing it so yes I would punish the thousands that push to remove that freedom of choice.

eviltwin

anonyanony wrote: »

As I said majority would be happy to take it, forcing the minority to do something they don't want really annoys me, trying to get something by force and removal of personal freedom makes me resent the people pushing it so yes I would punish the thousands that push to remove that freedom of choice.

People aren't being asked to vote on removing the rights of business to say no to hosting a gay reception. It's simply about the right to marry. You're looking for reasons to vote no, pretty desperate reasons too. If some business owner objects to single mothers in his establishment or black people should that be respected too?

anonyanony

eviltwin wrote: »

People aren't being asked to vote on removing the rights of business to say no to hosting a gay reception. It's simply about the right to marry. You're looking for reasons to vote no, pretty desperate reasons too. If some business owner objects to single mothers in his establishment or black people should that be respected too?

Yes let the free market decide plenty of places will take their business gladly.

Annasopra

anonyanony wrote: »

Well if the marriage proposal goes through it will mean more after parties and if businesses are forced to do something they don't wan't to it effects how I would chose to vote.

Its not going to change anything

At present businesses cannot discriminate on the basis of civil status. The law wont change this.

You're introducing irrelevant redundant points here.

eviltwin

anonyanony wrote: »

Yes let the free market decide plenty of places will take their business gladly.

Well thankfully we have laws to prevent that kind of bigotry, laws that won't be changed regarding of the outcome of the referendum.

anonyanony

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its not going to change anything

At present businesses cannot discriminate on the basis of civil status. The law wont change this.

The fact they are forced to do something they do want makes me want to spite the group the removed that freedom of choice.

You don't win respect of people by forcing them to do something they don't want, that just make you hate that group more.

anonyanony

eviltwin wrote: »

Well thankfully we have laws to prevent that kind of bigotry, laws that won't be changed regarding of the outcome of the referendum.

I wish more restaurants where allowed to ban babies after 8 but that the only group I would personally stop if I owned that kinda place, but if I setup a place I would not be able to set what clientele I want in my own private business.