Stuck chimney flap

dr.fuzzenstein

antiskeptic wrote: »

Have you tried jacking it in the middle of the flap so as to bend the axle and perhaps pop the end of the axle out of it's locating hole? I can't imagine the axle is fixed particularily robustly in the frame: perhaps a circlip or split pin or in all likelihood, nothing at all - simply a round bar inserted in a hole in the frame.

That is the first plan. Inserting a car jack and bend/break it out of the way.
The problem is always the same: access. This flap is 3.4 meters up in a very small space. I cannot physically get up there, even an 8 year old would have trouble.
And I think sending an 8 year old up there with an angle grinder or gas welder may not work. Some people tell me that's irresponsible. I can't see how.

As far as this flap being in any way flimsy: Go back to page 1, where I used an acrow and 20 ton jack to force it open and the acrow bent like marzipan (see pic), but the flap didn't give way.

antiskeptic

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That is the first plan. Inserting a car jack and bend/break it out of the way.
The problem is always the same: access. This flap is 3.4 meters up in a very small space. I cannot physically get up there, even an 8 year old would have trouble.
And I think sending an 8 year old up there with an angle grinder or gas welder may not work. Some people tell me that's irresponsible. I can't see how.

As far as this flap being in any way flimsy: Go back to page 1, where I used an acrow and 20 ton jack to force it open and the acrow bent like marzipan (see pic), but the flap didn't give way.

Is the chimney straight up or is there a kink in it? If straight enough then a long length of wood dropped down to grate level, 4" angle grinder attached and draw upwards. You'd get a good wedging effect between wall and flap as you cut so the angle grinder wouldn't dance around all over the place. Cut in as far as you can both side of the flap and then acrow again.

??

dr.fuzzenstein

antiskeptic wrote: »

Is the chimney straight up or is there a kink in it? If straight enough then a long length of wood dropped down to grate level, 4" angle grinder attached and draw upwards. You'd get a good wedging effect between wall and flap as you cut so the angle grinder wouldn't dance around all over the place. Cut in as far as you can both side of the flap and then acrow again.

??

Straight up. In fact in the second picture where the flap is open, you can make out the circular chimney opening at the top.
I'm skeptical about the angle grinder, but since it died cutting the acrow, that is purely academical now.
The acrow again will be difficult since it is bent, also since the flap is open, it would be pressing against the open edge of the flap, this is too wobbly.
If I can get a scissor car jack between the wall and the flap, I stand a chance, but getting it in there and winding it out will be a challenge.

Robbie.G

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Removing the flap is the tricky bit.
I am installing a woodburning stove, so will see what my options are with flexible pipe. This should not require the chimney to be lined.
Other option would be flexible pipe and line the chimney with rockwool insulation.

edit:

I had something like this in mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02P1PGqsUhU

Best thing is to get someone to test chimney to see if it's sound and not cracked and they might be able to see better with a camera what's best option

dr.fuzzenstein

Robbie.G wrote: »

Best thing is to get someone to test chimney to see if it's sound and not cracked and they might be able to see better with a camera what's best option

Chimney is sound, I can see all the way up.
I have ordered insulated flexible pipe as liner, best option in this case.

Robbie.G

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Chimney is sound, I can see all the way up.
I have ordered insulated flexible pipe as liner, best option in this case.

You still need to get liner past flap and when you take a flexi liner with insulation on it it's going to be around 200mm.

dr.fuzzenstein

Robbie.G wrote: »

You still need to get liner past flap and when you take a flexi liner with insulation on it it's going to be around 200mm.

Yep, spot on. But no worries, it has been a slow and painful birth so far and ill get that bloody flap out of the way somehow. So far I have never failed to wreck something that I wanted to wreck and in a lot of cases stuff didn't want to wreck.
One could say its a talent of mine and I hope it won't fail me now.

Robbie.G

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yep, spot on. But no worries, it has been a slow and painful birth so far and ill get that bloody flap out of the way somehow. So far I have never failed to wreck something that I wanted to wreck and in a lot of cases stuff didn't want to wreck.
One could say its a talent of mine and I hope it won't fail me now.

The best of luck with it.
If your tight for space you could always put in flexi liner (150mm) and back fill around it with vermiculite

dr.fuzzenstein

Robbie.G wrote: »

The best of luck with it.
If your tight for space you could always put in flexi liner (150mm) and back fill around it with vermiculite

I have no idea how to keep that stuff in place. Does it get blown in? It looks like it would just fall down and out the fireplace.

Robbie.G

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I have no idea how to keep that stuff in place. Does it get blown in? It looks like it would just fall down and out the fireplace.

There is a steel closure plate that goes at the bottom of the chimney the flexi goes through it then the vermiculite gets mixed with sand and cement and put in from the top and fills around the flue and insulates it

dr.fuzzenstein

Robbie.G wrote: »

There is a steel closure plate that goes at the bottom of the chimney the flexi goes through it then the vermiculite gets mixed with sand and cement and put in from the top and fills around the flue and insulates it

It's an option. What has been a nightmare from day one is that this chimney is non-standard in every aspect of its construction. It's like whoever built it didn't know the first thing about building chimneys. As a result no standard parts will fit, everything has to be custom, bodged, made to fit, adapted and fernagled.
Needles to say this has drawn this project out from a few days to 3 weeks so far.

Robbie.G

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's an option. What has been a nightmare from day one is that this chimney is non-standard in every aspect of its construction. It's like whoever built it didn't know the first thing about building chimneys. As a result no standard parts will fit, everything has to be custom, bodged, made to fit, adapted and fernagled.
Needles to say this has drawn this project out from a few days to 3 weeks so far.

And unfortunately expensive
Liner,stove additional works etc,
As I said good luck with your project and any queries we are all here

antiskeptic

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Straight up. In fact in the second picture where the flap is open, you can make out the circular chimney opening at the top.

Gives you options anyway

I'm skeptical about the angle grinder, but since it died cutting the acrow, that is purely academical now.
The acrow again will be difficult since it is bent, also since the flap is open, it would be pressing against the open edge of the flap, this is too wobbly.
If I can get a scissor car jack between the wall and the flap, I stand a chance, but getting it in there and winding it out will be a challenge.

I gather you've used a 20T bottle jack with the acrow and bent the acrow. It strikes me as unlikely that you'll do better with a lower rated scissor jack - although if getting in between edge of flap and wall you might be able to open the flap the full 180 degrees and achieve some kind of victory

You could consider notching a vee in the top of a new acrow to engage with the edge of flap (if ever involving an acrow) although I can't imagine other than closing the flap again (rather than bending it out of the way in it's current whole state).

It'd be an idea to drop a camera down and take a bit of video to see what you're dealing with size wise. Might even be manufacturers id on it so you could see how the non-visible aspects are constructed.

This could be some brute of an axle and you're never going to push it out of the way

shedweller

Hungover idea: cut a slot i the end of a sweeping brush handle (with extension!)and tie wrap a hacksaw blade in. A screw in through the end hole of the blade will prevent it from coming out. You could then(attempt to) cut off the axle!
Just like that!
Happy new year!

dr.fuzzenstein

As for the scissor jack, if I can get it between the wall and the open flap, I am pretty sure I can bend the flap out if the way. The acrow was butting up against it with a flat top and the frame reinforced it. That is nit the case here and theres a relatively small area on which it presses. That's the theory anyway.
As for the the saw extension, there could be potential in that idea.
Unless the flap is made out if adamantium, which I have been suspecting.
New Years dinner today, so no work, I might get up on the roof and tape plastic bags to the chimney top

antiskeptic

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

As for the scissor jack, if I can get it between the wall and the open flap, I am pretty sure I can bend the flap out if the way.

It's actually a fascinating problem when you think it through. You need that flap out of the way in order to get the liner up. You've major structural work/mess to get at it through the breast. You've access problems..

-

Something worth bearing in mind given the potential end result of having to hack open the chimney:

Before embarking on Plan A its worth considering what might happen if Plan A fails and alters the situation such as to prevent Plan B from being implemented. Thus, all possible plans might need considering and perhaps implemented based on leaving open other options rather than on immediacy, lack of cost, etc. For example: the angle grinder as Plan A would cost you an angle grinder but perhaps not close down the option of the car jack as Plan B. Whereas the car jack might close down the option of the angle grinder (this just an example of the approach, not that the jack would close down the option of the angle grinder).

Trying for the sake of trying might end up short circuiting you into having to hack the breast open

As for the the saw extension, there could be potential in that idea.

Whilst you'll get the reciprocating part done, you'll have trouble applying pressure against the metal such as to dig the teeth in so as to have them cut.

Given the sledge hammer idea worked in opening things, you might add the freefalling of a larger weight onto the list of possible plans. Or something as large as a long flue-sized diameter pole acting as a battering ram with a couple of you operating on it from the roof.

There's a lot to be said for impact forces.

dr.fuzzenstein

What about thermite?

antiskeptic

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What about thermite?

A shaped charge would be better..:D

shedweller

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What about thermite?

Welder + gouging rod. Jaysis, what a force to be reckoned with!

whizbang

Room for this ?

dr.fuzzenstein

What's that thing called? Looks like a medieval torture instrument. You'll get anyone to talk with that thing.
I have ordered 6.5 meters of flexible, insulated pipe for the stove and whatever other bits I need, chimney cap, adaptor, etc...
In return, the shop is willing to take back all the other bits I have ordered since they do not fit, which is very nice of them.
I have measured the chimney pots at the top and they are 20cm in diameter. There are two pots for a single chimney, which is the equivalent of sticking a double exhaust on a standard car, simply unnecessary.
The now open flap leaves a 10cm gap, which is too little, since flexible flue liner starts at 150mm (15cm), so there will be some brute force this weekend with whatever I can get my hands on.

whizbang

Its an open end nutsplitter. I thought they would be common enough things. Hire shop might do them, but usually hydraulic closed end yokes.

Will cut through rebar easily, but you need a little bit of free space around the flap to get it onto the hinge.

shedweller

whizbang wrote: »

Room for this ?

Thats a medieval nipple clamp. Hardy girls in them days i tell ya!

whizbang

All this talk about nipples, rods and flaps, i'm going to bed.

dr.fuzzenstein

whizbang wrote: »

Its an open end nutsplitter.

I knew it, medieval torture device.

deandean

Drr Fuzz it looks like a very difficult problem here is what i would do you seem to have tried everything else. beg borrow or steal an oxy acetylene torch. tape a usb webcam a foot or two back. you will need a usb extension cable so you can connect the camera into a laptop. also tape on a small flashlight for light. then clamp the torch onto a length of wood with jubilee clips. poke your assembly up the chimney. aim for the two hinge points and dont be in the way when the flap falls down!
best of luck!

gutteruu

I'd just use an extended hacksaw wire. Or one of these on a pole? I'm guessing its just the bar running across the middle you want to cut out.

dr.fuzzenstein

Well, I managed to open up the flap as far as it'll go. There is a 15cm gap. That is because the swivel point is not exactly in the middle, leaving a bigger gap on one side. The pots at the top have a 20cm diameter.
I should be able to squeeze past the flexible flue liner without too much difficulty or damage if I get 150 mm flue liner. I know it will be a little thicker wrapped in insulation, but it's flexible, so there's a little give there.
So right now the plan is to leave the flap in place and only if I absolutely cannot get the flue liner past the flap, will I resort to more drastic measure.
I will also order that nutsplitter, you never know when that might come in handy. At least it should be a novel way to crack open walnuts. :pac:

dr.fuzzenstein

Well, all I can do for now is wait till the flexible flue liner arrives.
In the meantime I have taken 2 empty 10kg bags for woodpellets and taped them over the end of the chimney pots, they fit like they where made for that purpose. The house is so much nicer now, before that there was a breeze in the house that would cut you in two.


A roof ladder makes getting onto the roof a lot safer


Hopefully no longer a breeze in the house that would blow out the candles on the dining table,

martinr5232

dr.fuzzenstein wrote:

What's that thing called? Looks like a medieval torture instrument. You'll get anyone to talk with that thing. I have ordered 6.5 meters of flexible, insulated pipe for the stove and whatever other bits I need, chimney cap, adaptor, etc... In return, the shop is willing to take back all the other bits I have ordered since they do not fit, which is very nice of them. I have measured the chimney pots at the top and they are 20cm in diameter. There are two pots for a single chimney, which is the equivalent of sticking a double exhaust on a standard car, simply unnecessary. The now open flap leaves a 10cm gap, which is too little, since flexible flue liner starts at 150mm (15cm), so there will be some brute force this weekend with whatever I can get my hands on.

How much was the liner that you ordered ?? is it the twin walled one ??