Stuck chimney flap

dr.fuzzenstein

I have a large fireplace into which I am going to install a woodburning stove.
I have all the bits and pieces I need, but I have a problem:
About halfway up the chimney a flap is fitted, with two pullchains, open and close.
The flap hasn't moved in years and is stuck solid.
First I swung off the chains, but 110 kg of me wouldn't budge it. Next I managed to lash a belt round it and pull it with a ratchet strap, 200 kg, it broke.
There followed me on my tiptoes hammering the flap with a large and heavy metal pole. Flap laughed at me.
After that I got a brace (the kind that holds roofs up on building sites) and I tried the screw mechanism to force the flap the other way, nothing.
My last attempt was to butt the brace against the chimney flap and putting a car jack underneath. In the end I could feel the bypass valve activating.
So, solid metal pole and 2 tons of pressure didn't even slightly shift it, it feels like the flap is solid concrete.
It is too small to climb up there and I can't send a child up there with a grinder or blowtorch.
So those are out.
How on earth could I possibly get that flap open, or rather, completely out of the way? I need it gone.
Any advise appreciated.

Cerco

Perhaps it opens upwards? Have you tried pushing a chimney rod up?
Apologies if this is a silly suggestion.

dr.fuzzenstein

Cerco wrote: »

Perhaps it opens upwards? Have you tried pushing a chimney rod up?
Apologies if this is a silly suggestion.

Any suggestions welcome.
It opens on a swivel point in the middle, i.e. towards the front is a lip on which it sits, meaning the back swivels down.
Right now it doesn't swivel any way, at least not with a mere two tons of pressure.
The aim is not just to open the flap, but to get it out completely.

Right now I have a watchermacallit that is used on building sites to support ceilings (I have no idea what that is called, any help appreciated), the plan is to use a very heavy duty jack that is used to jack up ceilings in order to hopefully break the flap and get it out of the way.
Any ideas welcome, even Wile E Coyote stuff like firing a giant rocket up the chimney.

Man of Aran

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Any suggestions welcome.
It opens on a swivel point in the middle, i.e. towards the front is a lip on which it sits, meaning the back swivels down.
Right now it doesn't swivel any way, at least not with a mere two tons of pressure.
The aim is not just to open the flap, but to get it out completely.

Right now I have a watchermacallit that is used on building sites to support ceilings (I have no idea what that is called, any help appreciated), the plan is to use a very heavy duty jack that is used to jack up ceilings in order to hopefully break the flap and get it out of the way.
Any ideas welcome, even Wile E Coyote stuff like firing a giant rocket up the chimney.

The doo- hickey is called an 'ackrow jack' I reckon.:D

It may be necessary that you have cut a slot externally on one side with a concrete saw to remove the frame to which this flap is attached.
Get your measurement carefully from hearth to this obstacle and transfer this measurement to the wall you will cut the slot.

Afterwards you can "make good" on the slit and re plaster. Presume you will run 5 or 6" flexi flue and vermiculite etc concept inside this old chimney anyhow so fumes or leak stains would not be primary concern. That's my 10cents worth.

dr.fuzzenstein

Man of Aran wrote: »

The doo- hickey is called an 'ackrow jack' I reckon.

It may be necessary that you have cut a slot externally on one side with a concrete saw to remove the frame to which this flap is attached.
Get your measurement carefully from hearth to this obstacle and transfer this measurement to the wall you will cut the slot.

Afterwards you can "make good" on the slit and re plaster. Presume you will run 5 or 6" flexi flue and vermiculite etc concept inside this old chimney anyhow so fumes or leak stains would not be primary concern. That's my 10cents worth.

That's the thingymabob!
The problem with the chimney flap is that it is halfway up the chimney, so can't get at it from the outside, too much house in the way and the front of the chimney is clad in solid stone, so no way to get at it.
Right now will butt the ackrow up against the flap (maybe weld a spike on top of it to concentrate the pressure on a small spot) and put one of these underneath it:



2 tons didn't shift the flap, but I reckon 20 tons of pressure should hopefully break even the strongest steel flap. I'm going with the Jeremy Clarkson method, sheer power didn't solve it? Moar power!

Man of Aran

Best of luck with it, be careful you don't damage the chimney inners with all that force. Is it an old masonry chimney or terracotta liners and what shape is it . Pix may help but with poor lighting, I know that's difficult to take.

It's a mystery why it does not budge so far, is it possible that somebody threw a few buckets of mortar down from top over the years to seal it semi permanently?
Have you got scaffolding up and/ or slate ladder so you can take a look down from top, might schedule some light on what's holding it so stubbornly.

Alun

Man of Aran wrote: »

Best of luck with it, be careful you don't damage the chimney inners with all that force.

Yes, I'd be worried about that too.

dr.fuzzenstein

Man of Aran wrote: »

Best of luck with it, be careful you don't damage the chimney inners with all that force. Is it an old masonry chimney or terracotta liners and what shape is it . Pix may help but with poor lighting, I know that's difficult to take.

It's a mystery why it does not budge so far, is it possible that somebody threw a few buckets of mortar down from top over the years to seal it semi permanently?
Have you got scaffolding up and/ or slate ladder so you can take a look down from top, might schedule some light on what's holding it so stubbornly.

I will take a few pics later, phone out of juice right now.
Viewed from the living room the chimney is clad with solid stone from base to roof, very thick, under that is concrete and I'm not sure as to the inside of the chimney, can't see it, but most likely lined.
The house itself dates back to around 2000, so would expect a fully lined chimney to which the stovepipe can be directly connected without the need for additional liner.

slimjimmc

It's a mad idea but if you can get to it with an ackrow then you may be able to get to it with a cutting torch or a reciprocating saw/angle grinder taped to a length of timber/metal tubing. If the powertool has a screw-in side handle you could use it to bolt on a bracket to mount it to the timber and add some sort of spacer to resist kick-back.

dr.fuzzenstein

slimjimmc wrote: »

It's a mad idea but if you can get to it with an ackrow then you may be able to get to it with a cutting torch or a reciprocating saw/angle grinder taped to a length of timber/metal tubing. If the powertool has a screw-in side handle you could use it to bolt on a bracket to mount it to the timber and add some sort of spacer to resist kick-back.

Thanks, that is certainly a possibility.

dr.fuzzenstein

OK, update.
Put down solid, flat timber on the floor, 20 ton bottle jack on top and an acrow.
Jacked it up and the acrow bent like a straw.
Here some pics



Chimney from the outside



This is what you see when you look up.
This looks larger than it is. The flap is 3.4 meters up and measures about 70cm x 30cm and the hole is too small to get up there.
There is of course always the option of sending a child up there with an anglegrinder or cutting torch...

Man of Aran

Gee, it's a tight spot alright.
Any idea who inserted that or when/ why. Are you original owner.
BTW you missed one pix from outside. Is this a semi or detached and I don't see why cannot a slot be cut from outside if it's not on a party wall.
To me a slot is still best and safest way rather than trying to use cutting torch from underneath unless you know some smallish circus worker types.

dr.fuzzenstein

Man of Aran wrote: »

Gee, it's a tight spot alright.
Any idea who inserted that or when/ why. Are you original owner.
BTW you missed one pix from outside. Is this a semi or detached and I don't see why cannot a slot be cut from outside if it's not on a party wall.
To me a slot is still best and safest way rather than trying to use cutting torch from underneath unless you know some smallish circus worker types.

Look at the first pic, I have drawn the location of the flap onto that.
Looking at it from the front, there is the chimney itself which is concrete, blocks and clad entirely from stone. You would have to cut through 2-3 feet of that. No chance.
On the other side is a room and a wall, so more to cut there.
The idea to call out a builder and cut a massive hole into a wall or the chimney breast is insane, this would be a very substantial job and cost thousands.
On the outside, all you can see is a small chimney on top of a roof.
No, not original owner was someone who knew everything about building a beautiful looking house, but not the first thing about building a practical house.
Imagine taking a very thick and sturdy metal flap and building a chimney around it, then clad it in solid stone and build a house around that. That chimney flap is like it's the very center piece around which everything else has been built.
Here's a pic of the acrow:

braddun

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-fix-a-stuck-fireplace-damper.html

dr.fuzzenstein

braddun wrote: »

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-fix-a-stuck-fireplace-damper.html

All good suggestions, however:

You can clean a dirty or rusty damper with a wire brush along with lots of elbow grease.

It's 3.4 meters up in a space a midget couldn't get into. So that's a non-starter

slide a short length of pipe — about 20 to 24 inches — over the damper handle (this extends the damper handle); then beat on the pipe with a sledgehammer to break the damper loose

Look at the above post, there's an acrow that's bent like a straw. I also have done the above, with no results. Another non-starter.

When the damper is operational, work it back and forth while applying a high-temperature lubricant at all the joints and moving parts. When it’s clean and in good working order, spray-paint the damper with a black high-temperature paint to prevent future rusting.

I do not plan to get the flap operational, it has to go because I am installing a a stove.
Thanks for the link, but sadly nothing applicable in there.

whupdedo

Hi op, what distsnce is the flap from the top of the chimney outside ?

dr.fuzzenstein

I'm guessing about 2 meters. All this through a regular diameter chimney pipe, so can't get at it from there either.

What I am going to do is to take the bent acrow, cut the bent bit in two and insert a metal spike I have lying around. This is about a 1.5 meters long, a few centimeters thick and solid steel.
This will concentrate the force of the jack on a small spot, this should (fingers crossed) hopefully bend or break the flap.
After that, the only way would be a gas torch tied to a broom stick. I will invest in a fire extinguisher for that...

whupdedo

If you could heat the plate with a felt layers torch, they're about a metre long and your reach is another metre, I mean really heat it, get it really reddened up and that might expand the working parts and therefore free up the flap, i use heat on all stuck steel parts I come across and it rarely fails to work

shedweller

Maybe get a long pipe and make and end on it that will go into a drill. On the other end do the same but for a hole saw or drill bit. Hold it solid with grub screws. Then you have a two metre drill bit or hole saw. Establish where the flap hinges are and attempt to drill them out from above. The flap should feck off then with a few belts of a pipe.
Something also occured to me. Could there be stops on the frame of the flap to stop it going past closed? You may have been pushing against those stops. If so then push up at the end where the stop is under the flap.
This could be like the thread about the safe yer man had in his shed!

Edit: i just looked at the pic of the flap taken from the roof. It does look like a frame going around the flap and all the way too by the looks of it! So maybe the whole flap opens downwards?? Try beat the flap down from the roof with a heavy pipe. Safety first of course!

dr.fuzzenstein

Thanks about the two above suggestions. The torch has already been considered but the drill idea is a new one. The problem is, from above there is no chance to get at it, but from below it might be possible.
The torch is being sourced as we speak.

dr.fuzzenstein

Thanks shedweller.
The flap is a butterfly valve, so swivels at the center. I do know which side opens.
I will attack with a spike and a jack and after that a drill and a torch.
From above its not happening, the hole is too small, you can't get anything down there.

I do remember the thread about the safe, that was awesome. Doesn't matter if there was nothing much in it, sometimes the journey is the destination.

Kristopherus

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Thanks about the two above suggestions. The torch has already been considered but the drill idea is a new one. The problem is, from above there is no chance to get at it, but from below it might be possible.
The torch is being sourced as we speak.

Is there any way you could track down the builder. It may be a long shot, but it may also save you come sweat and maybe tears. There may be a simple enough way of loosening that flap. Did the previous owners use it? IMHO you should make as many enquiries as possible. If you found out the manufacturer of the flap, it might be useful. Is tipping up (or down) the plap leaving you enough room to get a flue up?

dhog4n

Have you tried looking down from above? If you can get a camera down the chimney you will be able to see any blockage which may be causing the problem. If the flap is intended to open upwards, anything more than a few inches of mortar will make it practically impossible to force open from below.

The reason I suggest this is that it sounds very much like there is a mortar blockage. It is common enough for wall cavities to fill up several courses high at the bottom with mortar droppings during hasty construction and this could have happened during the construction of your chimney. Clearing or drilling through this will be much easier from above or from the side.

shedweller

Ah yes i see it now i think. It looks like the hinges are on the short sides. The frame edge i saw only goes around one long side and half of each short side.

dr.fuzzenstein

shedweller wrote: »

Ah yes i see it now i think. It looks like the hinges are on the short sides. The frame edge i saw only goes around one long side and half of each short side.

That's the stuff!
Yes, the hinges are in the middle of the short side of the flap, it operates like a butterfly valve.
There is no blockage, as the flap has loosened somewhat and I can see daylight.
With my repaired and weaponised acrow I'm sure I can force the flap.
Tomorrow I'm being dragged shopping, so more early next week.

dr.fuzzenstein

An update!
A neighbour came by with a friend and they climbed up on the roof with a sledgehammer and a rope.
They then repeatedly dropped the hammer onto the chimney flap until it opened.
So at least it's open now.
I now know that all the piping I bought is wrong and will have to go back.
I assumed that there would be piping just above the flap, but there isn't, the chimney is built square all the way to the top, with a short pipe section.
So the new plan is to exchange the sections I bought for flexible piping and somehow wangle that down the chimney.
Pics to follow.

shedweller

Good progress! Yay! Will the flexi pipe go past the now open valve?

dr.fuzzenstein

Well, that remains to be seen, have a look at the pics.
I originally assumed that the chimney was square up to the flap and then there should be pipes.
As you can see, it's square all the way to the top. My neighbour said he hasn't seen a chimney built like this in a long time.






The flap is visibly bent from my earlier attempts at getting it out of the way.
If I can't squeeze flex pipe past it, I will still have to get an oxy acetylene cutter.
And I have to hurry, there's a draft coming down that chimney that will cut you in two, the living room is not a nice place to be, even with the heat going non-stop.

Robbie.G

Depends on what you want to do with chimney if you want an open fire the liner must be 200mm if you intend to have a stove the liner must be 150mm
Either way your going to have to remove the flap and line the chimney

dr.fuzzenstein

Robbie.G wrote: »

Depends on what you want to do with chimney if you want an open fire the liner must be 200mm if you intend to have a stove the liner must be 150mm
Either way your going to have to remove the flap and line the chimney

Removing the flap is the tricky bit.
I am installing a woodburning stove, so will see what my options are with flexible pipe. This should not require the chimney to be lined.
Other option would be flexible pipe and line the chimney with rockwool insulation.

edit:

I had something like this in mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02P1PGqsUhU

antiskeptic

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, that remains to be seen, have a look at the pics.
I originally assumed that the chimney was square up to the flap and then there should be pipes.
As you can see, it's square all the way to the top. My neighbour said he hasn't seen a chimney built like this in a long time.






The flap is visibly bent from my earlier attempts at getting it out of the way.
If I can't squeeze flex pipe past it, I will still have to get an oxy acetylene cutter.
And I have to hurry, there's a draft coming down that chimney that will cut you in two, the living room is not a nice place to be, even with the heat going non-stop.

Have you tried jacking it in the middle of the flap so as to bend the axle and perhaps pop the end of the axle out of it's locating hole? I can't imagine the axle is fixed particularily robustly in the frame: perhaps a circlip or split pin or in all likelihood, nothing at all - simply a round bar inserted in a hole in the frame.

dr.fuzzenstein

antiskeptic wrote: »

Have you tried jacking it in the middle of the flap so as to bend the axle and perhaps pop the end of the axle out of it's locating hole? I can't imagine the axle is fixed particularily robustly in the frame: perhaps a circlip or split pin or in all likelihood, nothing at all - simply a round bar inserted in a hole in the frame.

That is the first plan. Inserting a car jack and bend/break it out of the way.
The problem is always the same: access. This flap is 3.4 meters up in a very small space. I cannot physically get up there, even an 8 year old would have trouble.
And I think sending an 8 year old up there with an angle grinder or gas welder may not work. Some people tell me that's irresponsible. I can't see how.

As far as this flap being in any way flimsy: Go back to page 1, where I used an acrow and 20 ton jack to force it open and the acrow bent like marzipan (see pic), but the flap didn't give way.

antiskeptic

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That is the first plan. Inserting a car jack and bend/break it out of the way.
The problem is always the same: access. This flap is 3.4 meters up in a very small space. I cannot physically get up there, even an 8 year old would have trouble.
And I think sending an 8 year old up there with an angle grinder or gas welder may not work. Some people tell me that's irresponsible. I can't see how.

As far as this flap being in any way flimsy: Go back to page 1, where I used an acrow and 20 ton jack to force it open and the acrow bent like marzipan (see pic), but the flap didn't give way.

Is the chimney straight up or is there a kink in it? If straight enough then a long length of wood dropped down to grate level, 4" angle grinder attached and draw upwards. You'd get a good wedging effect between wall and flap as you cut so the angle grinder wouldn't dance around all over the place. Cut in as far as you can both side of the flap and then acrow again.

??

dr.fuzzenstein

antiskeptic wrote: »

Is the chimney straight up or is there a kink in it? If straight enough then a long length of wood dropped down to grate level, 4" angle grinder attached and draw upwards. You'd get a good wedging effect between wall and flap as you cut so the angle grinder wouldn't dance around all over the place. Cut in as far as you can both side of the flap and then acrow again.

??

Straight up. In fact in the second picture where the flap is open, you can make out the circular chimney opening at the top.
I'm skeptical about the angle grinder, but since it died cutting the acrow, that is purely academical now.
The acrow again will be difficult since it is bent, also since the flap is open, it would be pressing against the open edge of the flap, this is too wobbly.
If I can get a scissor car jack between the wall and the flap, I stand a chance, but getting it in there and winding it out will be a challenge.

Robbie.G

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Removing the flap is the tricky bit.
I am installing a woodburning stove, so will see what my options are with flexible pipe. This should not require the chimney to be lined.
Other option would be flexible pipe and line the chimney with rockwool insulation.

edit:

I had something like this in mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02P1PGqsUhU

Best thing is to get someone to test chimney to see if it's sound and not cracked and they might be able to see better with a camera what's best option

dr.fuzzenstein

Robbie.G wrote: »

Best thing is to get someone to test chimney to see if it's sound and not cracked and they might be able to see better with a camera what's best option

Chimney is sound, I can see all the way up.
I have ordered insulated flexible pipe as liner, best option in this case.

Robbie.G

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Chimney is sound, I can see all the way up.
I have ordered insulated flexible pipe as liner, best option in this case.

You still need to get liner past flap and when you take a flexi liner with insulation on it it's going to be around 200mm.

dr.fuzzenstein

Robbie.G wrote: »

You still need to get liner past flap and when you take a flexi liner with insulation on it it's going to be around 200mm.

Yep, spot on. But no worries, it has been a slow and painful birth so far and ill get that bloody flap out of the way somehow. So far I have never failed to wreck something that I wanted to wreck and in a lot of cases stuff didn't want to wreck.
One could say its a talent of mine and I hope it won't fail me now.

Robbie.G

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yep, spot on. But no worries, it has been a slow and painful birth so far and ill get that bloody flap out of the way somehow. So far I have never failed to wreck something that I wanted to wreck and in a lot of cases stuff didn't want to wreck.
One could say its a talent of mine and I hope it won't fail me now.

The best of luck with it.
If your tight for space you could always put in flexi liner (150mm) and back fill around it with vermiculite

dr.fuzzenstein

Robbie.G wrote: »

The best of luck with it.
If your tight for space you could always put in flexi liner (150mm) and back fill around it with vermiculite

I have no idea how to keep that stuff in place. Does it get blown in? It looks like it would just fall down and out the fireplace.

Robbie.G

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I have no idea how to keep that stuff in place. Does it get blown in? It looks like it would just fall down and out the fireplace.

There is a steel closure plate that goes at the bottom of the chimney the flexi goes through it then the vermiculite gets mixed with sand and cement and put in from the top and fills around the flue and insulates it

dr.fuzzenstein

Robbie.G wrote: »

There is a steel closure plate that goes at the bottom of the chimney the flexi goes through it then the vermiculite gets mixed with sand and cement and put in from the top and fills around the flue and insulates it

It's an option. What has been a nightmare from day one is that this chimney is non-standard in every aspect of its construction. It's like whoever built it didn't know the first thing about building chimneys. As a result no standard parts will fit, everything has to be custom, bodged, made to fit, adapted and fernagled.
Needles to say this has drawn this project out from a few days to 3 weeks so far.

Robbie.G

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's an option. What has been a nightmare from day one is that this chimney is non-standard in every aspect of its construction. It's like whoever built it didn't know the first thing about building chimneys. As a result no standard parts will fit, everything has to be custom, bodged, made to fit, adapted and fernagled.
Needles to say this has drawn this project out from a few days to 3 weeks so far.

And unfortunately expensive
Liner,stove additional works etc,
As I said good luck with your project and any queries we are all here

antiskeptic

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Straight up. In fact in the second picture where the flap is open, you can make out the circular chimney opening at the top.

Gives you options anyway

I'm skeptical about the angle grinder, but since it died cutting the acrow, that is purely academical now.
The acrow again will be difficult since it is bent, also since the flap is open, it would be pressing against the open edge of the flap, this is too wobbly.
If I can get a scissor car jack between the wall and the flap, I stand a chance, but getting it in there and winding it out will be a challenge.

I gather you've used a 20T bottle jack with the acrow and bent the acrow. It strikes me as unlikely that you'll do better with a lower rated scissor jack - although if getting in between edge of flap and wall you might be able to open the flap the full 180 degrees and achieve some kind of victory

You could consider notching a vee in the top of a new acrow to engage with the edge of flap (if ever involving an acrow) although I can't imagine other than closing the flap again (rather than bending it out of the way in it's current whole state).

It'd be an idea to drop a camera down and take a bit of video to see what you're dealing with size wise. Might even be manufacturers id on it so you could see how the non-visible aspects are constructed.

This could be some brute of an axle and you're never going to push it out of the way

shedweller

Hungover idea: cut a slot i the end of a sweeping brush handle (with extension!)and tie wrap a hacksaw blade in. A screw in through the end hole of the blade will prevent it from coming out. You could then(attempt to) cut off the axle!
Just like that!
Happy new year!

dr.fuzzenstein

As for the scissor jack, if I can get it between the wall and the open flap, I am pretty sure I can bend the flap out if the way. The acrow was butting up against it with a flat top and the frame reinforced it. That is nit the case here and theres a relatively small area on which it presses. That's the theory anyway.
As for the the saw extension, there could be potential in that idea.
Unless the flap is made out if adamantium, which I have been suspecting.
New Years dinner today, so no work, I might get up on the roof and tape plastic bags to the chimney top

antiskeptic

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

As for the scissor jack, if I can get it between the wall and the open flap, I am pretty sure I can bend the flap out if the way.

It's actually a fascinating problem when you think it through. You need that flap out of the way in order to get the liner up. You've major structural work/mess to get at it through the breast. You've access problems..

-

Something worth bearing in mind given the potential end result of having to hack open the chimney:

Before embarking on Plan A its worth considering what might happen if Plan A fails and alters the situation such as to prevent Plan B from being implemented. Thus, all possible plans might need considering and perhaps implemented based on leaving open other options rather than on immediacy, lack of cost, etc. For example: the angle grinder as Plan A would cost you an angle grinder but perhaps not close down the option of the car jack as Plan B. Whereas the car jack might close down the option of the angle grinder (this just an example of the approach, not that the jack would close down the option of the angle grinder).

Trying for the sake of trying might end up short circuiting you into having to hack the breast open

As for the the saw extension, there could be potential in that idea.

Whilst you'll get the reciprocating part done, you'll have trouble applying pressure against the metal such as to dig the teeth in so as to have them cut.

Given the sledge hammer idea worked in opening things, you might add the freefalling of a larger weight onto the list of possible plans. Or something as large as a long flue-sized diameter pole acting as a battering ram with a couple of you operating on it from the roof.

There's a lot to be said for impact forces.

dr.fuzzenstein

What about thermite?

antiskeptic

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What about thermite?

A shaped charge would be better..:D

shedweller

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What about thermite?

Welder + gouging rod. Jaysis, what a force to be reckoned with!

whizbang

Room for this ?