rich people richer poor people poorer

shinzon

as if we didn't already know but here it is in black and white

http://www.thejournal.ie/budget-2015-poor-and-rich-1829105-Dec2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

Shin

Full text

BUDGET 2015 WILL have the greatest impact on households with the lowest incomes, which will face a 1% reduction in net household income, while houses with the highest incomes will experience a gain.

That’s according to a new paper, Distributional Impact of Tax, Welfare and Public Service Pay Policies, published by the ESRI today.

It found that the 10% of households with the lowest income will now experience a 1% reduction in their net household income. However, the top 10% of higher income households will gain half of one per cent.

It also stated that most middle income households will experience smaller losses than low incomes homes.

The paper looked at the cash impact of Budget 2015 and revised water charges and also examined the combined impact of all budgets from October 2008.

Budget Impact

Since 2008, Budgets have reduced the incomes of all groups – but the losses were greatest for those with the highest and lowest incomes. People in the middle income group experienced smaller losses.

Households with the highest incomes (the top 10%) saw losses of about 15½ %. Those losses were mainly from tax increases and reductions in public service pay.

The paper found that at the other end of the income scale (households with incomes in the lowest 10%), budget-related losses were somewhat higher than average – at close to 13%.

Middle income households had lower but still substantial losses of between 10 and 11%.

One of the authors of the report Dr Tim Callan said, “Families at all income levels and of all types have seen income losses due to Budgets over the last 7 years.


Single unemployed people without children have been the hardest hit, while retired singles and retired couples have been the least affected.

Young unemployed people experienced substantial cuts in welfare payment rates while pension payment rates, unlike working age payment rates, were not reduced.

biko

I didn't click link. What is it about?

RobertKK

So what are poorer people doing to make themselves richer?

If doing the same thing all the time, do they expect to get richer?

biko

Ah yes, the Nouveau riche

BoJack Horseman

So, some households on social welfare are down 1%.
Highest earning households are up 0.5%.

Is it that huge a deal considering everything?

The click-bait' journal does it again with its faux sensationalism.

Elmer Blooker

RobertKK wrote: »

So what are poorer people doing to make themselves richer?

If doing the same thing all the time, do they expect to get richer?

This thread will be amusing! Who needs Ross O'Carroll-Kelly when you have AH.

GoldFour4

Wow, I actually agree with the top comment on a journal article, weird feeling!

I think a budget that financially favors people in employment and reduces the incentive to stay out of employment is a good thing.

Tabnabs

It also stated that most middle income households will experience smaller losses than low incomes homes.

If you were made redundant, like 10's of thousands were, then your income drop is pretty fcuking significant and no tinkering with a couple of percentage points here or there by the government will make a fig of difference...

Lovely Bloke

RobertKK wrote: »

So what are poorer people doing to make themselves richer?

Three years ago I would have been considered poor (two person household, I was unemployed for 8 months).

So I went out and got a job, upskilled while there, and have since more than doubled my wages, due to a job move in 2013, and being headhunted, but ultimately staying in my job with a better package this year

We are now a three person household (new baby), two cars and regular holidays.

So this poor person got off his arse and made it work.

To hear that I'm being rewarded with a 0.5% raise after Xmas is the icing on the cake, thanks Enda!

valoren

Of course the rich will get richer, it's basic maths with compound interest.

As the old adage goes;

Those who understand compound interest will collect it.
Those who fail to understand compound interest will pay it.

One eyed Jack

shinzon wrote: »

Single unemployed people without children have been the hardest hit, while retired singles and retired couples have been the least affected.

Young unemployed people experienced substantial cuts in welfare payment rates while pension payment rates, unlike working age payment rates, were not reduced.

Those would be the same retired people who were paying 62% of their income in tax and endured numerous recession periods already?

Yeah, pensioners don't just appear out of the blue either, they have contributed a hell of a lot more to the economy over their working life than someone who is young and unemployed who has yet to contribute to the economy.

SEPT 23 1989

so basically all this "squeezed middle" is a total load of rubbish

fryup

way of the world i'm afraid...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Kum8OUTuk

Capt'n Midnight

Globally the number of billionaires has double during the recession

oxfam have some truly depressing statistics

roughly speaking the number of deaths every year from cancer globally is the same as deaths per year from poverty that would be prevented had the richest 500 spent their increase in assets on them.

BoJack Horseman

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

so basically all this "squeezed middle" is a total load of rubbish

No, they middle still carry a large burden.
Much of that burden is not tax, but things like mortgage debt & childcare costs.

This "article" looks at year on year tax changes & changes since 2008.

donegaLroad

in 2011, Rolls Royce sold more cars than ever before in their 100-year history.

suicide_circus

donegaLroad wrote: »

in 2011, Rolls Royce sold more cars than ever before in their 100-year history.

Yeah in China and the Middle East not in Ireland

Nermal

Households with the highest incomes (the top 10%) saw losses of about 15½ %. At the other end of the income scale (households with incomes in the lowest 10%), budget-related losses were somewhat higher than average – at close to 13%.

So the real story is poor people poorer, rich people poorer still.

How about you change the thread title?

Capt'n Midnight

suicide_circus wrote: »

Yeah in China and the Middle East not in Ireland

stats here if anyone wants to look them up

http://www.simi.ie/Statistics/National+Vehicle+Statistics.html

BoJack Horseman

donegaLroad wrote: »

This also appears to be the trend in Ireland, as the OP is pointing out.

The OP shows that some social welfare reliant residences have taken hits in income since 2008.

Its not a sign that the system is failing.

Grayson

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Three years ago I would have been considered poor (two person household, I was unemployed for 8 months).

So I went out and got a job, upskilled while there, and have since more than doubled my wages, due to a job move in 2013, and being headhunted, but ultimately staying in my job with a better package this year

We are now a three person household (new baby), two cars and regular holidays.

So this poor person got off his arse and made it work.

To hear that I'm being rewarded with a 0.5% raise after Xmas is the icing on the cake, thanks Enda!

Congrats on getting a job.
But that doesn't mean everyone else who's on the dole is there because they want to be.

Jesus the stupidity on these boards is getting worse.

I'm waiting for the climate change thread where people start saying "but it's cold today so there can't be global warming"

eviltwin

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Three years ago I would have been considered poor (two person household, I was unemployed for 8 months).

So I went out and got a job, upskilled while there, and have since more than doubled my wages, due to a job move in 2013, and being headhunted, but ultimately staying in my job with a better package this year

We are now a three person household (new baby), two cars and regular holidays.

So this poor person got off his arse and made it work.

To hear that I'm being rewarded with a 0.5% raise after Xmas is the icing on the cake, thanks Enda!

Well done. Its not easy so fair play.

Similar thing here, lost my job when the business went in the recession, the industry was gone so had to totally refocus. I ended up working in the community helping the very people hit hardest by the recession. Its not a well paying job, its not something I will ever make a fortune doing but I am doing work of real value, helping people and that is worth more to me at the moment. Luckily my husband works so we are doing okay but its still hard going and some days I don't have any money left at the end of the week. It sucks that you go out and work and you have very little to show for it and people's answer to that is "get a better job"...If everyone I worked with decided feck this and left to get better paid work then the HSE would have a massive problem on its hands.

A lot of people actually have no interest in being rich, they just want enough to pay the bills and have a bit of money left over to be able to enjoy themselves. I find that is getting worse not better for us thanks to property tax, water bills and USC.

Uncle Ruckus

Commies will be voted in for the next election. Grabs popcorn.

sbsquarepants

Since the start of the whole global financial crisis 6 or 7 years ago, the number of dollar billionaires in the world has doubled. (more if you count Zimbabwe dollars - I've even got a couple of billion of them myself at home!)

Foxhound38

The numbers are hardly huge - clickbait methinks.

That said, I am literally scratching my head and wondering what the point of the modern Labour Party is if they're happy to sign off on this.

Adamantium

Uncle Ruckus wrote: »

Commies will be voted in for the next election. Grabs popcorn.

I never watch Vincent Brown except last night, Richard Boyd Barrett deadpanly answered VB question on equality with full vigour "Yes I expect to move towards a system where everybody gets paid the same income", My jaw dropped. VB then did what no leftist ever wants and followed the logical trails of following how money would flow in that economy. Barrett and the other ULA member fell into a dead eyed look that suggested looked like they had seen the monolith from 2001, they couldn't comprehend how a few childlike questions could pull their whole belief system apart.

anonyanony

Uncle Ruckus wrote: »

Commies will be voted in for the next election. Grabs popcorn.

Nah SF never do well in the poles, dole class don't vote.

Uncle Ruckus

anonyanony wrote: »

Nah SF never do well in the poles, dole class don't vote.

Up until now I would say that would be somewhat true but there is a big change in the national consciousness recently. The water fiasco was the spark. Don't get me wrong, the commies will screw up the economy but at least it will make a change from getting shafted by the centre-right. It certainly makes for good entertainment. I was watching the news yesterday evening and it made for top notch reality t.v.- The Thirsty Games.

tritium

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Those would be the same retired people who were paying 62% of their income in tax and endured numerous recession periods already?

Yeah, pensioners don't just appear out of the blue either, they have contributed a hell of a lot more to the economy over their working life than someone who is young and unemployed who has yet to contribute to the economy.

Some did, some didn't. Given historic rates if unemployment and the national debt that subsidised this country I think its fair to say that many have been long term net beneficiaries.

Equally given the boom post early 90's a lot of those noe unemployed have actually contributed a hell of a lot between income tax while they were working, stamp duty etc.

The One Doctor

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

We are now a three person household (new baby), two cars and regular holidays.

I'm a bit confused. Can someone explain why I need two cars and regular holidays to be happy?

realtalk101

Ireland is becoming a very classed based country ,people tend to date and marry in their own social class ,another factor is the rise of women who are more than half the workforce now, and they prefer to marry or date men who make the same or more money than them, so these factors contribute to us becoming more economically divided

European countries like Spain are much more socially and economically diverse ,a lot of different classes mixed together, eg here in spain it's common to see men and women from different classes dating, That's why Spain can survive 26.94 unemployment and only a couple of months unemployment and not have 30% of the population on the street

turnikett1

RobertKK wrote: »

So what are poorer people doing to make themselves richer?

If doing the same thing all the time, do they expect to get richer?

Stupid, lazy poor people right? Why dont they just BUY MORE MONEY!?

turnikett1

realtalk101 wrote: »

Ireland is becoming a very classed based country ,people tend to date and marry in their own social class ,another factor is the rise of women who are more than half the workforce now, and they prefer to marry or date men who make the same or more money than them, so these factors contribute to us becoming more economically divided

As a sociology student I feel like I have a bit of authority on this subject and Id just like to say that is absolute balderdash. In my experience of travelling around the world including all over Europe, Ireland is one of the least classist societies going. Bar the glaringly obvious examples such as a businessman in a Merc parked beside a homeless person, you will be hard pressed to find many examples of class division. Yes, they do exist (on a more subtler level too), but to say that "people tend to date and marry in their own social class" is ridiculous - are you recently back from the UK?

anonyanony

The One Doctor wrote: »

I'm a bit confused. Can someone explain why I need two cars and regular holidays to be happy?

Society tells you need it, you probably be happier if you gave up the rat race altogether.

Son Of A Vidic

RobertKK wrote: »

So what are poorer people doing to make themselves richer?

If doing the same thing all the time, do they expect to get richer?

Well I suppose one could argue, when people are paying taxes through their nose for the crimes of the 1%. The 1% whom thanks to the recession are now richer than ever. Then it does become harder for poorer folk to get off their knees. Life is pretty easy when it's a win-win and others will always cover your losses.

realtalk101

MR sociology student >so your saying Ireland could survive up to 26.94 unemployment with no social welfare ,

yipeeeee

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Well I suppose one could argue, when people are paying taxes through their nose for the crimes of the 1%. The 1% whom thanks to the recession are now richer than ever. Then it does become harder for poorer folk to get off their knees. Life is pretty easy when it's a win-win and others will always cover your losses.

In fairness a lot more than 1% bought wrecklessy during the boom.

People buying houses they couldn't afford.

Lovely Bloke

The One Doctor wrote: »

I'm a bit confused. Can someone explain why I need two cars and regular holidays to be happy?

I never said that you do need those things, only that three years ago we couldn't afford them, and now we can.

I used to be poor, now I'm rich, and will be even richer after Xmas, so YIPPEE!! for me.

ireland.man

RobertKK wrote: »

So what are poorer people doing to make themselves richer?

If doing the same thing all the time, do they expect to get richer?

So structural causes of poverty don't exist. There was no economic depression in history, only poor people who didn't get up and make themselves rich. The key to economic success is wanting to have money and work towards it. Also, reptilian humanoids run our governments.

AboutaWeekAgo

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

I never said that you do need those things, only that three years ago we couldn't afford them, and now we can.

I used to be poor, now I'm rich, and will be even richer after Xmas, so YIPPEE!! for me.

Were you this humble when you were broke as well?

Idbatterim

why shouldnt the ones paying through the nose benefit most? The rich getting richer shocker, when you have that much money, you either know what you are doing with it or get someone to manage or advise you on it!

Capt'n Midnight

Idbatterim wrote: »

why shouldnt the ones paying through the nose benefit most? The rich getting richer shocker, when you have that much money, you either know what you are doing with it or get someone to manage or advise you on it!

or you can afford tax dodges the rest of us can't, like moving money offshore or setting up shell companies or availing of special tax write off schemes the rest of us could never afford

look at how the money was offshored when DIRT came in

you only have to see the history of tax amnesties here to see how the very rich can get away with stuff repeatedly , though a lot of people at the lower levels were ill advised by their financial advisers

"if you owe the bank €300,000 that's your problem, but if you owe the bank €300 million then it's the banks problem"

A bank can foreclose on a mortgage but would have to keep bailing out someone who sink them if they don't repay.

gene_slackman

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Those would be the same retired people who were paying 62% of their income in tax and endured numerous recession periods already?

Yeah, pensioners don't just appear out of the blue either, they have contributed a hell of a lot more to the economy over their working life than someone who is young and unemployed who has yet to contribute to the economy.

actually the majority of those in receipt of the state pension will draw down four times more than they contributed in PRSI during their lives , PRSI obligations were very basic in this country for to qualify for the contributory pension and besides the non contributory is only 11 euro per week less which you get even you never paid a red cent in tax down the years

gene_slackman

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Globally the number of billionaires has double during the recession

oxfam have some truly depressing statistics

roughly speaking the number of deaths every year from cancer globally is the same as deaths per year from poverty that would be prevented had the richest 500 spent their increase in assets on them.

recessions - crashes are fantastic opportunites to pick up assets at firesale prices

stocks were for nothing in early 2009 , had i known anything about them at the time , id be worth three times what i am today

knowledge is as important as cash when it comes to growing wealth

gene_slackman

realtalk101 wrote: »

Ireland is becoming a very classed based country ,people tend to date and marry in their own social class ,another factor is the rise of women who are more than half the workforce now, and they prefer to marry or date men who make the same or more money than them, so these factors contribute to us becoming more economically divided

European countries like Spain are much more socially and economically diverse ,a lot of different classes mixed together, eg here in spain it's common to see men and women from different classes dating, That's why Spain can survive 26.94 unemployment and only a couple of months unemployment and not have 30% of the population on the street

ireland is fairly equal by most measures

those who earn most pay more than their fair share , i exclude the handful of mega rich exiles

gene_slackman

turnikett1 wrote: »

As a sociology student I feel like I have a bit of authority on this subject and Id just like to say that is absolute balderdash. In my experience of travelling around the world including all over Europe, Ireland is one of the least classist societies going. Bar the glaringly obvious examples such as a businessman in a Merc parked beside a homeless person, you will be hard pressed to find many examples of class division. Yes, they do exist (on a more subtler level too), but to say that "people tend to date and marry in their own social class" is ridiculous - are you recently back from the UK?

never thought id see a sociology student tell it like it is

pleasant surprise

steddyeddy

yipeeeee wrote: »

In fairness a lot more than 1% bought wrecklessy during the boom.

People buying houses they couldn't afford.

And we had apparently educated people working in banks giving out those loans didn't we. A person working in a bank gave large sums of money to people who couldn't pay it back.

gene_slackman

ireland.man wrote: »

So structural causes of poverty don't exist. There was no economic depression in history, only poor people who didn't get up and make themselves rich. The key to economic success is wanting to have money and work towards it. Also, reptilian humanoids run our governments.

the key to growing wealth is to constantly spend less than you earn

warren buffett said that

SHOVELLER

Anyone ever notice how "poor" people always stand in the way?!

BoJack Horseman

SHOVELLER wrote: »

Anyone ever notice how "poor" people always stand in the way?!

Deploy the cow-catcher.

smcgiff

SHOVELLER wrote: »

Anyone ever notice how "poor" people always stand in the way?!

Only if you're trying to post a letter on a Wednesday morning.