Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study

Aard

I cannot provide written evidence, unfortunately, but most transport professionals I have spoken to have a middling to negative view of MN. The main issue professionals have is that there is no coherent transport infrastructure strategy for the Dublin region, and MN represents another piecemeal, incremental patch as opposed to part of an integrated plan. (The Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study too represents more or less another incremental approach.) Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much political will for a GDA transport strategy, so we're left with piecemeal approaches where each one has to stack up for its own set of indicators, as opposed to a holistic approach accross the GDA (or at least the four Dublin authorities).

Grandeeod

Aard wrote: »

I cannot provide written evidence, unfortunately, but most transport professionals I have spoken to have a middling to negative view of MN. The main issue professionals have is that there is no coherent transport infrastructure strategy for the Dublin region, and MN represents another piecemeal, incremental patch as opposed to part of an integrated plan. (The Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study too represents more or less another incremental approach.) Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much political will for a GDA transport strategy, so we're left with piecemeal approaches where each one has to stack up for its own set of indicators, as opposed to a holistic approach accross the GDA (or at least the four Dublin authorities).

I agree. Piecemeal is the important word here. Since the original DART plan from the early 70s was first presented, we have continuously stumbled through report and plan after report and plan. The DTO's Platform for change was more or less based on the original DART plan with the additon of LR and Metro. That was once again stripped apart to come up with the joke that was the Dublin aspects of T21. If we look at things since the early 70s until now, we are actually going backward instead of forward. We effectively just got luas.

My despondency here is based on the above. The most progressive period was between 2001 and 2008 when it seemed like a concrete decision had been made to build DU and MN. Despite my doubts, which I base on history, I believe it was a solution really worth following despite being watered down. However, we now find ourselves back at square one in relation to the Northside and I have no faith in any positive DU talk from Government. I trully believe we will stumble on and on and achieve nothing. Sorry for the negativity.

monument

Grandeeod wrote: »

I understand that, but I'm sure you appreciate my point about it being a concoction of ideas.

Is there a problem with this?

Grandeeod wrote: »

Back in the early/mid noughties, groups like Platform 11 and others were floating ideas like yours. I believe it was based on a viewpoint that MN wasn't necessary and HR should be the priority. The Dublin rail plan was backed heavily and I once saw a Platform 11 graphic proposing a HR tunnel under Glasnevin and joining the MN alignment when it was originally proposed to run further west than the current planned route via Drumcondra. That's more or less HR8. I know for a fact that the MN O'Reilly Report featured a watered down version of this by recommending further study of a MN/HR interchange at Glasnevin junction, because the original MN proposal actually lacked any interchange with the Maynooth line in this area. Subsequently MN was routed under Drumcondra road and the planned interchange made at Drumcondra station.

Ah, that's all grand. Lobbyists in a north Dublin context usually has a slightly different meaning.

Grandeeod wrote: »

You really do need to back this up with evidence. Honestly, I'm not being smart, but I would like to see some solid evidence for this opinion.

Are you out of the loop that much? When Metro North was still in planning did you not take in any of the newspaper articles, and TV and radio shows which covered it?

If you want to do some reading up, try here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/No-to-Metro-North/132969966748869

Grandeeod wrote: »

Interesting idea, but based on many assumptions and adding IC trips to what should essentially should be a commuter project.

The IC part is a great plus then. The cost benefits of tunneling should be enhanced. Good stuff!

Grandeeod wrote: »

Any rail solution that can connect an International Airport to the mainline rail network in two transfers is more than acceptable.

Two might be more than acceptable to some. But you won't win the support of many Marys down the country with that -- which is the point I was replying to.

Grandeeod wrote: »

However, I believe your HR8 idea is more about "connecting the country" as opposed to "connecting a city". It also comes across as very centred on the Airport.

It will connect the city, the region, the country and the island. I've already outlined this in some detail.

In my last post I clearly mentioned Swords, DCU, and the airport -- not just one of those. I also referred to Phibsborough, Docklands, Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush, Adamstown and other locations in Co Dublin and the Greater Dublin Area.

Grandeeod wrote: »

Still sounds very centred on the Airport. Within DU and MN these trips are easily doable

Jim in Drogheda and Jane in Dundalk would have significant extra journey times.

Alex in Balbriggan, Harry in Skerries, and Emily in Rush would also have significant extra journey times and have to switch in the city centre on Metro North -- with HR8+, the north Dublin towns to Swords areas local trips would be competitive with car trips between these locations adding extra very important non-city centre focused point-to-point trips.

Grandeeod wrote: »

with the added city centre/nothside penetration that MN affords.

Sure, more localised penetration can be a pull factor, but connectivity can be more important, Metro North looks extremely standalone compared to HR8+...

(connections in brackets)

Metro North

• Estuary
• Swords
• Fosterstown
• Airport
• Dardistown
• Northwood
• Ballymun
• Dublin City University
• Griffith Avenue
• Drumcondra (Irish Rail)
• Mater
• Parnell Square
• O'Connell Bridge
• St Stephen's Green (Luas, green line)

Possible HR8+ Dart route

• Balbriggan (Commuter, northern line)
• Skerries (Commuter, northern line)
• Rush and Lusk (Commuter, northern line)
• Donabate (Commuter and Dart, northern line)
• North Swords
• Swords
• Fosterstown
• Airport (Cork-Belfast IC)
• Dardistown
• Ballymun
• Dublin City University
• Phibsborough / Glasnevin (Sligo IC & Maynooth-Greystones Dart)
• Possible second and third extra station between Glasnevin Junction & Docklands
• Docklands (Luas, red line; Irish Rail, northern line Dart)
• Pearse (Maynooth-Greystones Dart, Commuter)
• St Stephen's Green (Luas, green line)
• Christchurch
• Heuston Station (Luas, Intercity, Commuter, IC bus routes)
• Inchicore
• Park West and Cherry Orchard
• Clondalkin/Fonthill
• Kishoge
• Adamstown
• Hazelhatch and Celbridge

Possible HR8+ Intercity

• Belfast
• ...
• Dundalk
• Drogheda
• Dublin Airport
• Heuston
• ...
• Cork

strassenwo!f

I find it very hard to see how priority should be given to satisfying the very occasional needs of Noneen from Nenagh. She's going to possibly travel along this route twice a year, maybe four times, mostly to and from the airport.

Of course, if Noneen isn't travelling, then there's probably Nora, or Niall, or Naoise, or Niamh, who are travelling on any one day to and from the Airport.

But we know that Dublin City Centre is the most in-demand area in the country. And we know that each of Sean, Sylvester, Sorcha, Siobhan, Sinead, Seamus and Samuel want to travel between Swords and the City Centre, directly, every weekday, shouldn't that be the priority?

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I find it very hard to see how priority should be given to satisfying the very occasional needs of Noneen from Nenagh. She's going to possibly travel along this route twice a year, maybe four times, mostly to and from the airport.

Of course, if Noneen isn't travelling, then there's probably Nora, or Niall, or Naoise, or Niamh, who are travelling on any one day to and from the Airport.

But we know that Dublin City Centre is the most in-demand area in the country. And we know that each of Sean, Sylvester, Sorcha, Siobhan, Sinead, Seamus and Samuel want to travel between Swords and the City Centre, directly, every weekday, shouldn't that be the priority?

The only HR8+ services suggested run directly from Swords into the city centre via Dart Underground. It would link Swords directly with several city centre stops and have far better connectivity to Luas, Dart, Commuter, IC, and even BRT than Metro North would. It would also be a direct link to the Docklands.

Jim in Drogheda is traveling to DCU every day to study. Jane in Dundalk uses the airport every week.

Alex in Balbriggan is going into Swords to work every day. Harry in Skerries is also studying in DCU, and Emily in Rush works in the DCU business park.

The names have been changed but these are all close to actual trips which I know which people take now or in the recent past.

liamog

I really like the idea of HR8+ seems to have some very positive network effects and would enable lots of connections.

I believe we'll break ground on DU before 2020.

I see the usual naysayers on boards who believe that all PT in Dublin should be designed to get people from the suburbs to Westmoreland St in record time.

We've already got a spoke bus system running in Dublin so how's about we build a heavy transport system that gets people to the canals where they can transfer to light rail / Dublin bikes.

If we see an opportunity to this whilst also enabling IC routes to the Airport from the rest of the Ireland then even better.

Bray Head

We built a very nice inter-urban motorway network over the last 20 years. It is one of the best in the world, largely because it is so new. It is very hard for the rail network to compete on speed given we have a country with both low average population density and a dispersed population.

The MN corridor has both very high current demand and would also serve future development in Dublin in a way that other options do not. The point about HR8 getting greater buy-in from the rest of Ireland/EU funding is perhaps valid from a political economy perspective. But I doubt a cold look at the numbers would suggest it would generate many extra trips.

Speaking personally, inter-urban rail speeds would want to triple before I would use it regularly. Public transport speeds within Dublin would only want to increase by 50% and I would make a lot more modal switches.

Grandeeod

monument wrote: »

Are you out of the loop that much? When Metro North was still in planning did you not take in any of the newspaper articles, and TV and radio shows which covered it?

If you want to do some reading up, try here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/No-to-Metro-North/132969966748869

Out of the loop that much?


Nope. Very much in the loop. That facebook page is drivel. Socialist clap trap. It objects to and dislikes anything it deems to be a waste of money. I'm quite sure they'd be happy to object to your HR8 plus idea too. Now it just looks like a dumping ground for anti Government ranting.

I have followed the Metro concept since it was mooted in Platform for change. Every step of the way. I do not recall objections of any substance or merit to MN. The ramblings of opinionated journos, doesn't count. The tired logic of a few other so called "experts" with a history of being wrong about rail transport doesn't count either. (I won't name any of them.)

IMN had cross party support at a political level. It had support in its catchment area. The only negativity I witnessed was that generated by a media, hungry to take pot shots at the Government over cost. Your HR8 plus trainset will have these same guys shaking in their boots Monument.

As I said in an earlier post, we'd all be delighted if MN and DU were in place. But they aren't and I stand by my belief that MN should proceed as is, along with DU, if Dublin is to stand any chance of developing a decent rail based system in the near future. Even if HR8 was selected as the preferred option, we are facing into many more years of planning, design and public consultations. While that is happening, it may be financially viable to build MN and we could miss the chance.

Anyway, my prediction is a mixture of luas and BRT.

cgcsb

Bray Head wrote: »

Speaking personally, inter-urban rail speeds would want to triple before I would use it regularly. Public transport speeds within Dublin would only want to increase by 50% and I would make a lot more modal switches.

Surely that's excessive no? Journey time to Cork =2h30min for a 266km journey. That's an average of 106.4km/h including stops of course. Triple that = 320km/h including stops i.e. faster than ANY railway in the world at present with the exception of some maglevs and some experimental technology.

Such a train would complete the distance to Cork in 50 minutes in theory. However the distance between stops isn't long enough to even get up to that speed.

Bray Head

cgcsb wrote: »

Surely that's excessive no? Journey time to Cork =2h30min for a 266km journey. That's an average of 106.4km/h including stops of course. Triple that = 320km/h including stops i.e. faster than ANY railway in the world at present with the exception of some maglevs and some experimental technology.

Such a train would complete the distance to Cork in 50 minutes in theory. However the distance between stops isn't long enough to even get up to that speed.

I'll be more literal when I am being facetious in future:)

My point is that the advantages of my car for travelling from Dublin to Cork are considerable at the moment. The speed premium from rail over car would want to be massive to compensate me for making the switch.

Things would not need to improve as much in Dublin to encourage me out of my car.

Sam Russell

Has any consideration been given to the use of electric powered trolley buses in Dublin? It would be a better solution than the diesel powered bendy buses proposed for the BRT routes in the plan.

They are used extensively on the mainland of Europe, and are used in addition to trams in, say, Geneva. They accelerate faster than diesels and can be built in double or single decker designs. They used to be used in London but were withdrawn at about the same time as the Dublin trams were, and probably for the same reason (old-fashioned). They cause much less air pollution being electric, and London may now regret getting rid of them as we should regret getting rid of the old trams.

monument

NTA to take submissions up to two weeks after deadline:

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-01-20a.1413&s=Luas#g1415.r

Aard

Glad it's been extended but it should have been forseen that not everybody has the time to sit down and pore over a huge document over Christmas, absorb it, and then write to the NTA about it.

ETA: This is especially confusing since the NTA website does not reflect the statement by Donoghue that submissions will still be accepted. The online submission form is closed still.

Idbatterim

I heard that poodle Pascale O'Donohue on the news on the radio earlier, the bulletin was commenting on how gridlock was back at 2008 levels. He was banging on about luas BXD and sorting dublins traffic problems! I didnt know whether to laugh out loud or totally give up! Dublin is in dire need of DU, MN and here we are discussing options proposed in the report such as an at grade luas serving the airport and swords, its beyond a joke!

Sam Russell

Now with Quantitative Easing, the Gov should get the funding for both DU and MN and get on with it ASAP. Create jobs, relieve traffic, and all for free (well at least very low or zero interest).

monument

Idbatterim wrote: »

I heard that poodle Pascale O'Donohue on the news on the radio earlier, the bulletin was commenting on how gridlock was back at 2008 levels. He was banging on about luas BXD and sorting dublins traffic problems! I didnt know whether to laugh out loud or totally give up! Dublin is in dire need of DU, MN and here we are discussing options proposed in the report such as an at grade luas serving the airport and swords, its beyond a joke!

While I'm in favour of Dart Underground and HR8+, projects like Dart Underground and Metro North no more sort out traffic issues than the London Underground network does, or how the NYC subway does, or how the DC network does, etc etc.

Traffic will still be an issue and while the projects might lower traffic levels on their routes for a while, traffic will bounce back.

The main affect the projecs have is to lower the importance of such traffic by having more people traveling by public transport -- ie increasing the modal share for public transport.

On a city-wide level (while not such a focused effect on any one route as DU or MN), bus lanes and Luas are already doing this for city centre bound traffic. In a way they are more effective doing this because or cost and because the traffic can't return to past levels. So, in a way the minister is right.

jd

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now with Quantitative Easing, the Gov should get the funding for both DU and MN and get on with it ASAP. Create jobs, relieve traffic, and all for free (well at least very low or zero interest).

I fear it'll be option C1 (rather than Metro) + the DU

Idbatterim

If some joke of an option gets chosen, can it be appealed and held up for long enough that it is no longer fit for purpose (based on their forecast demand) and then scrapped in favour of something that is?

Because isnt that why we are here? the growth figures were too optimistic and the new ones havve to be taken as gospel, when in all likelihood they are no doubt too pessimistic?

They can bang on all they want with growth figures and options etc, the bottom line is (and I know this is not just about serving the airport) but that airport I would expect to have 30,000,000 passengers a year give or take a little by the time whatever option is built, a tram to an airport that on opening has 30,000,000 or so passengers and then what about the next 30-40 year's of growth? We have a massive housing shortage, huge amounts of land around swords and the airport, something with major capacity will give us options of building far higher density close to the city... Increasing land values, property tax levy, development levy etc etc etc. Billions can be found for the black hole HSE every year, E20,000,000,000 for welfare, yet a once of E500 million or so, i.e. nothing in the scheme of things is enough to literally derail a project of massive importance to the city and quality of life for hundreds of thousands of us that live here?

I have said it before a few months ago and I will say it again, the quicker things continue to deteriorate on the congestion front here the better, it means that something will have to be done about it sooner... God forbit a sacred cent gets taken away from welfare, PS rates or HSE etc, to be spend on what I am sure is deemed waste areas such as infrastructure etc, you only have to hear about the state of our water infrastructure to see it ranks in our irresponsible current and past governments minds, nearly endless money after the boom and it is in a criminal state...

liamog

I'd disagree with QE at the level of just giving banks money and asking them to trickle it down.

However I'd be totally in favor of QE via big infra. They should market it as "Lets Build Europe" a series of infrastructure projects across the Euro area.

D.L.R.

monument wrote: »

While I'm in favour of Dart Underground and HR8+, projects like Dart Underground and Metro North no more sort out traffic issues than the London Underground network does, or how the NYC subway does, or how the DC network does, etc etc.

Not sure I agree with this. Those subways supply their cities with massive capacity, and they'd be lost without them. London's traffic is heavy, but on any normal day, it keeps moving. Dublin is much worse, considering its a far smaller city.

Dublin's lack of transport capacity creates a drag on growth. Its not so much that a subway in Dublin will alleviate traffic, its that it will allow Dublin to operate at a higher capacity.

Victor

Idbatterim wrote: »

Billions can be found for the black hole HSE every year, E20,000,000,000 for welfare, yet a once of E500 million or so, i.e. nothing in the scheme of things is enough to literally derail a project of massive importance to the city and quality of life for hundreds of thousands of us that live here?

I have said it before a few months ago and I will say it again, the quicker things continue to deteriorate on the congestion front here the better, it means that something will have to be done about it sooner... God forbit a sacred cent gets taken away from welfare, PS rates or HSE etc, to be spend on what I am sure is deemed waste areas such as infrastructure etc, you only have to hear about the state of our water infrastructure to see it ranks in our irresponsible current and past governments minds, nearly endless money after the boom and it is in a criminal state...

liamog wrote: »

I'd disagree with QE at the level of just giving banks money and asking them to trickle it down.

However I'd be totally in favor of QE via big infra. They should market it as "Lets Build Europe" a series of infrastructure projects across the Euro area.

This is the Infrastructure forum. Can we stay (generally) on topic?

Moderator

monument

D.L.R. wrote: »

Not sure I agree with this. Those subways supply their cities with massive capacity, and they'd be lost without them. London's traffic is heavy, but on any normal day, it keeps moving. Dublin is much worse, considering its a far smaller city.

Dublin's lack of transport capacity creates a drag on growth. Its not so much that a subway in Dublin will alleviate traffic, its that it will allow Dublin to operate at a higher capacity.

I agree that they'd be lost without their metro rail networks and I fully agree with your second paragraph.

London ranks in the top 10 congested cities on most of such lists for Europe or the world I've seen (NYC also makes it mark on some of those lists). Traffic may "keep moving" sometimes or in parts, but not always and lots of sections are heavily congested.

My point -- much like your own -- is that public transport's role is not to free up space for mass motoring, it is to get/keep more people moving.

lucernarian

What is the option that gets the greatest number of "green" ticks as well as the fewest red ones?? Yep, BRT5...

I wonder who will benefit from multiple bus lanes bus "rapid transit" lines across northside Dublin because building this for €250 million to €300 million in the context of the swiftway proposals sounds to me like an outright lie. Did they include the capital costs of the buses involved in these multiple routes either? They were quick to point out the savings of ordering shorter carriages in Optimised Metro North?

If anyone else finds AECOM's conclusions to be somewhat bothersome, or that perhaps their calculations are a little flawed... Write in!

Their submission page still seems closed. What's a good email address to send it to?

VeryOwl

jd wrote: »

I fear it'll be option C1 (rather than Metro) + the DU

We're on the usual merry go round of nothing getting done. As credit becomes more available, and the deficit slowly decreases, the government has decided to bin a perfectly good shovel-ready project. It makes no logical sense.

Sometimes you get the feeling that even if they were handed 3 billion euro tomorrow they still wouldn't do it, such is the lack of political will. It's frankly depressing. As someone else correctly pointed out on this thread, public transport doesn't win votes.

Idbatterim wrote:

Because isnt that why we are here? the growth figures were too optimistic and the new ones havve to be taken as gospel, when in all likelihood they are no doubt too pessimistic?

And surely, by the same token, the figures for the more-supported DART Underground will also be 'too optimistic', if the government sees fit. Despite the fact that the last business case was only done 4 years ago. Considering that these projects are meant to have decades-long lifespans and redundancy requirements, short-term trends shouldn't even really come into it.

Seeing how quick they were to dump MN, it'll be interesting to see what happens with DU now that their hand has been forced.

spuddy

A strong nod in the direction of Option HR1?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30980544

Grandeeod

spuddy wrote: »

A strong nod in the direction of Option HR1?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30980544

It's like being back in the late 1990s.:rolleyes:

D.L.R.

spuddy wrote: »

A strong nod in the direction of Option HR1?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30980544

I watched this article, and it seems more to do with Translink manoeuvring for its own airport links, citing "competition from the south".

spuddy

D.L.R. wrote: »

I watched this article, and it seems more to do with Translink manoeuvring for its own airport links, citing "competition from the south".

I think that's just the Northern slant on the story, Newstalk have it too I see
http://www.newstalk.com/Want-to-take-a-train-to-Dublin-Airport-It-might-happen-soon

D.L.R.

spuddy wrote: »

I think that's just the Northern slant on the story, Newstalk have it too I see
http://www.newstalk.com/Want-to-take-a-train-to-Dublin-Airport-It-might-happen-soon

Well the Fingal study has a half dozen options, not just this one.

They're picking up on the one most directly related to them, I guess.

spuddy

D.L.R. wrote: »

Well the Fingal study has a half dozen options, not just this one.

They're picking up on the one most directly related to them, I guess.

As it's the same option in all media outlets, to me this looks like Irish Rail releasing a story rather than the BBC, Newstalk & other outlets simultaneously taking it up on their own.

IR are also espousing the benefits of this option, in conjunction with DART underground, the railway order of which, expires this September. Perhaps they're giving the powers that be a gentle reminder...