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Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study
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A lot of time being spent angry there. Can you elaborate more on the issues surrounding HR8, just to put some context for the various users of this forum? I myself have not come across the proposal in the past but I see some potential issues with it that would make it impractical if I am right.
I can see some merits of the HR8 idea, not least good integration with the (post-DU) DART system and especially if stations could also be fitted in in the vicinity of Glasnevin or if some kind of easy transfer to the Luas BXD extension was possible. And many other benefits of providing a connection to the Northern line in terms of operational flexibility, greater range of destinations that could be served directly in the region and *perhaps* for less cost than Metro North IF AECOM's sums are accurate.0 -
You're selective reading of Leo's speech is telling. He said: "I do think that DART Underground will happen someday" and made it clear that his issue with Metro North was that it was based on massive other projects going ahead (north Swords city, airport city etc).
Dart Underground is such a large rail project and he said he sees that as a runner. He has said this on more than a few occasions and so has the current minister for transport!
"There is no basis for it" -- except for Realpolitik. There's not near enough support for Metro North at the moment -- the pressure for it is likely building again in the city but not far outside the confines of its route. But the feeling that it's dead and was just a boom project has also set in
An expanded version of HR8 would have far better connectivity, far greater benefits and wider appeal in the city, in the county, in the regional, across the country, over the border and with possibly EU lenders/funders (ie EIB/T-TEN).
Also you're not fully right about ignoring "the money already spent" -- HR8 and some of the LTR options might not be able to take advantage of all of the prep work done on Metro North, but it could take advantage of everything from geo surveys; drawings etc of what's there now (building, services etc); property already bought / CPOed etc.
What happened leading up to Luas is actually fairly typical of what happens in other motoring dominated cities which propose LRT/trams/BRT on surface which will displace space and priority away from cars. You'll find many US and UK case studies.
So, it's in no way just typical of Irish anything -- it's typical of a society so dependent on motoring.
The stuff about Dart was also crazy but also not that surprising given the context of the 70s, the decade where the car is the future craze really caught on* in the UK and by extension Ireland. This was a gem from the Sindo in 1979: "You and I — the taxpayers — would have to fork out less if instead of electrifying it the government bought a brand-new car for each of the line’s present adult passengers to do their suburban travel in; and in doing so they would use less fuel than the proposed system would." http://dublinobserver.com/2011/03/white-elephant-on-tracks/
HR8 would have less stops underground and you'd also expect cost savings if Irish Rail are starting it after Dart Underground is finished.
That's a given, but DU is seen as a relatively safe bet and would now come before any MN type route.
The real failing point of trying to evaluate "Metro Dublin" is that it requires a re-think / replacement of Dart Underground and there's few people who want to do that to a project which is so close to shovel ready and has relatively good political support. Without the full project it seems very unconnected of a route and possible services are limited.
Re unnecessary tunnel to St James' hospital: HR9 -- Heuston to Swords via Phoenix Park Tunnel -- is that, just without the northern line connection north of Swords.
The "Metro Dublin" as evaluated does go near to Donabate? See the map on page 40 of the report's PDF: http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Appraisal_Report_19112014_final.pdf
I wasn't selective about Varadkars speech. You have no basis to refer to my comments as "telling". Nor did I discuss DU. As for MN's Swords and beyond aspects, even as Swords stands now, it will justify it and its Park and Ride. Your HR8 fetish and thats how it comes across in your posts, is barely different from MN apart from a few hundred million in cost.
The "not near enough support for MN" is nothing more than a Government unwilling to think about a shovel ready project.
The expanded HR8 idea is yours. The time to fap over it was 10 years ago, not now. I would have been far more supportive then. It will require yet more planning, public consultation etc etc. In fact aspects of it were shot down 10 years ago. If Glasnevin cemetery enters the mix, expect major objections and delays.
I am fully right about money already spent. The DART is different to MN, not withstanding, it was the RPA that spent the money and not IE. I genuinely shudder at that remark and its assumptions.
The rest of your post in relation to what I said re luas and DART, displays a blase attitude of acceptance and unwillingness to appreciate the political process that involves itself in these projects. But that's probably why you are willing to accept the opportunity to engage in this latest process, which will result in absolutely nothing. I will agree to differ with you and hope that you will man up when this latest fudge proves itself to be yet another pointless exercise.0 -
What we're discussing as HR8 is really HR8 plus some, so I'll refer to it as HR8+...I'm dictating nothing. I am merely pointing out the reality. This forum discussed MN ad nauseum. Nobody disagreed with it in principle.
Quite a few people disagreed with it in principle, not just one or two people. It's just that those on the pro-metro side (including myself at the time) outnumbered everybody else and were able to clearly cut a lot of the anti-metro arguments to bits with clear-cut facts.HR8 is untested in a public consultation scenario. You had never heard of it before this study.
Adapting to change we can't stop is capitulating to a political process that has proven itself of incapable of delivering. The evidence is overwhelming and I don't need to outline it for you.
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As for "moving on", we are not moving on from anything. We are merely introducing tactics to delay building anything. If you really understood the history of rail transport since 1970, you would see this.
There's a clear case of wider appeal for a project which would more directly link the regional and country with the airport and other areas to each other as outlined below....Please don't insult me, my intellience or my posts by picking on my angry tone or my remarks about an irrelevant forum. My comments contain emotion that is justified.
If you want to call this place an irrelevant forum and post as if things are a matter of life and death, expect to be challenged!The free for all public consultation I referred to was based on everyone having a say, so please don't twist it into something else.
Just to be clear: It did seem like you have a problem with everyone having a say -- when that's a key to public consultation.Please tell me why HR8 is better than MN?- More local connectivity -- ie a service which would take in the north Dublin coastal towns (ie Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush and Lusk, Donabate) to Swords, Airport and onwards. This would connect workplaces and shopping/entertainment centres to nearby residential areas -- a link with currently is heavily used by motorised traffic on a congested and (largely poor) road network and poorer public transport.
- More regional connectivity: Directly connecting places like Drogheda to Swords/DUB; Kildare to Swords/DUB; West Dublin to Swords/DUB etc.
- More national connectivity: Intercity services to Dublin Airport; at the very least direct Cork - Dublin - Dublin Airport - Belfast services. You could also terminate some Galway etc services at Dublin Airport.
- For the above it has more local and national appeal and is more likely to be built.
- Would make up part of the T-TEN route which is better for funding.
And tell me when you first heard of this HR8 idea.
Lots of elements of HR8+ were discussed in general discussions of MN years ago -- from having an interchange at Glasnevin to linking up to the Northern Line, but without the ability for services to run on both, the benefits were much more limited.
Firmly in an official report the first time is the study mentioned in the OP.0 -
Is Glasnevin Junction even feasible? It's a dangerous question I know as not everyone will be convinced, as can be seen with College Green in the DU alternatives thread. But this is the location: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.366552,-6.2754578,460m/data=!3m1!1e3 Lots of canal, gravestones, and existing trainlines to worry about. And Claremont Lawns...0
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lucernarian wrote: »Is Glasnevin Junction even feasible? It's a dangerous question I know as not everyone will be convinced, as can be seen with College Green in the DU alternatives thread. But this is the location: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.366552,-6.2754578,460m/data=!3m1!1e3 Lots of canal, gravestones, and existing trainlines to worry about. And Claremont Lawns...
The further look at HR8 will look at how feasible it is. The report notes the sensitive issue of the cemetery.I wasn't selective about Varadkars speech. You have no basis to refer to my comments as "telling". Nor did I discuss DU.
Yes, you were selectively reading it -- you were selective by trying to claim that " that there is no will within Irish politics to fund such large rail projects" while quoting a minister for transport who wants to proceed with such a large rail project (Dart Underground).As for MN's Swords and beyond aspects, even as Swords stands now, it will justify it and its Park and Ride.
Not in Realpolitik terms -- Metro North is still seen as a route mainly from the city centre to the Airport, as well as a small town called Swords.Your HR8 fetish and thats how it comes across in your posts, is barely different from MN apart from a few hundred million in cost.
Let me get this straight, you think number 1 here is barely different from 2?- A route with long Luas trams which can only run on that route (and maybe some day Metro West too)
- A route which can take Dart, Commuter and Intercity; and allow for intercity services such as Cork - Dublin - Dublin Airport - Belfast
The "not near enough support for MN" is nothing more than a Government unwilling to think about a shovel ready project.
No, it's not. There was significant opposition and limited support for Metro North and that has not changed.The rest of your post in relation to what I said re luas and DART, displays a blase attitude of acceptance and unwillingness to appreciate the political process that involves itself in these projects. But that's probably why you are willing to accept the opportunity to engage in this latest process, which will result in absolutely nothing. I will agree to differ with you and hope that you will man up when this latest fudge proves itself to be yet another pointless exercise.
What I said was not at all a "blase attitude of acceptance". You labeling the political process as "typical of Irish Governments" rather than something which is typical of lots of places like Ireland -- that a massive misunderstanding of the issue.
Sure, the new process might "result in absolutely nothing" -- I don't need to "man up" in the future, I can freely admit that now. That's also not unique to public transport projects -- the same happens sometimes on motoring projects where the whole thing never works out or is dragged along or is brought back to square one.
But while it could well be yet another pointless exercise, it has a better change of coming to anything over just wishing away or denying Metro North's issues.0 -
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The report "notes" it. That's not much fun. They were able to succinctly point out a problem at Heuston within the Metro Dublin proposal but didn't give Glasnevin Junction the same treatment. I'm hoping for some opinions on it here.
The RPA happily provided AECOM with a basic drawing of the tunnel entrance for the Luas D2 option that goes under Glasnevin. There is a park that lies along the old Broadstone alignment and it seems like the RPA have done their calculations and shown it can work. With option HR8 and HR9 and to a lesser extent Metro Dublin (as their tunnel could break ground beside the siding on the line towards the phoenix park)0 -
It's not going to be built anytime soon and there are better options to look at.
What I love about this design (which mostly combines options in the official report) is that it:- It allows for a Dart service to serve most of the Metro North route
- It allows for Cork - Dublin - Dublin Airport - Belfast Intercity
- It's on the main IRL-NI T-TEN route and fits in with the goal of greater EU connectivity by linking the airport to the rest of the island by rail and linking the republic with the north by rail
- It allows for strong public transport connectivity for areas of Fingal -- Dart services could run between the north Co Dublin coastal towns and Swords (which is already a hub for many of the coastal towns);
- It's the HR8 option, which scores well + extra high density areas + far better connectivity -- so, it's it's possible it could be the best scoring route
- It frees up the northern line, with the reduction / removal of IC trains
Isn't your idea just HR8 + HR9 + HR4?
A nice idea but do you need the HR8 bit? Could it not just be HR9 +HR4?0 -
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With NTMA placing donds at less than .9%, is it not the time to borrow a few billion to build these projects?
It would have a very positive effect on so many aspects of Irish life, with few downsides.0 -
Yes, you were selectively reading it -- you were selective by trying to claim that " that there is no will within Irish politics to fund such large rail projects" while quoting a minister for transport who wants to proceed with such a large rail project (Dart Underground).
Not in Realpolitik terms -- Metro North is still seen as a route mainly from the city centre to the Airport, as well as a small town called Swords.
Let me get this straight, you think number 1 here is barely different from 2?- A route with long Luas trams which can only run on that route (and maybe some day Metro West too)
- A route which can take Dart, Commuter and Intercity; and allow for intercity services such as Cork - Dublin - Dublin Airport - Belfast
No, it's not. There was significant opposition and limited support for Metro North and that has not changed.
What I said was not at all a "blase attitude of acceptance". You labeling the political process as "typical of Irish Governments" rather than something which is typical of lots of places like Ireland -- that a massive misunderstanding of the issue.
Sure, the new process might "result in absolutely nothing" -- I don't need to "man up" in the future, I can freely admit that now. That's also not unique to public transport projects -- the same happens sometimes on motoring projects where the whole thing never works out or is dragged along or is brought back to square one.
A route which can take Dart, Commuter and Intercity; and allow for intercity services such as Cork - Dublin - Dublin Airport - Belfast
1. I'm not being selective because I don't believe that DU will be funded/built either. Varadkars comments re DU are equally full of political crap aswell. As an ex minister for transport, his comments on MN are just as laughable as his comments on DU. He's in a different portfolio now.
2. Realpolitic? You are hung up on MN being so stand alone. Nothing wrong with that. If it was in place now, it would be heaving with passengers and successful. If it was a DART based solution, it would be subject to IE and all its inherent problems.A route which can take Dart, Commuter and Intercity; and allow for intercity services such as Cork - Dublin - Dublin Airport - Belfast
3. Your assumption that a DART/Heavy rail based solution can or will allow what you claim is in your head for now. You have absolutely nothing to back that up apart from any submission you make.What I said was not at all a "blase attitude of acceptance". You labeling the political process as "typical of Irish Governments" rather than something which is typical of lots of places like Ireland -- that a massive misunderstanding of the issue.
I've no misunderstanding at all. Check your history and look at the repetition. Give me one example in Europe that equates with Ireland.Sure, the new process might "result in absolutely nothing" -- I don't need to "man up" in the future, I can freely admit that now. That's also not unique to public transport projects -- the same happens sometimes on motoring projects where the whole thing never works out or is dragged along or is brought back to square one.
I fully agree to disagree, but I will not change my opinion. You are arguing your points, but you also accept that it may come to nothing. Jesus H Christ Monument, how can you simply partake in a processs and accept that it may come to damn all? I'm sorry, but you are coming across as a person that is happy to make submissions to plans as and when they are presented to you.
My major gripe is that we are nowhere near building anything. Please tell me how you would feel if MN and DU were nearly finished and ready for passengers. In fact I put that out to all on this thread and I'll repeat it.
How would you all feel right now if MN and DU were just about ready for passengers this year?0 -
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It's not that simple - there is still the matter of running a deficit (limited to 3%, but his will change to 2%), although some fancy accounting could be done to have it 'off balance sheet', but getting it approved under those principles may be difficult.Sam Russell wrote: »With NTMA placing donds at less than .9%, is it not the time to borrow a few billion to build these projects?0 -
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Isn't your idea just HR8 + HR9 + HR4?
A nice idea but do you need the HR8 bit? Could it not just be HR9 +HR4?
The evaluation of HR8 is or is closer to the posable route I'm suggestion for Dart services -- my suggestion is (a) from Glasnevin take the route towards Docklands but go on into the DU tunnel or (b) the HR8 route.
The section south of Glasnevin (which is shown on HR9) is being suggested mainly or only for Intercity services.
If taking the Docklands route I'd add stations to service the very high density areas along the route. A Phibsborough / Glasnevin station (likely west of the Phibsborough Road) is a no-brainer add on to even with the current Dart plans, but with this idea it would become an interchange station.1. I'm not being selective because I don't believe that DU will be funded/built either. Varadkars comments re DU are equally full of political crap aswell. As an ex minister for transport, his comments on MN are just as laughable as his comments on DU. He's in a different portfolio now.
Varadkar's and Donohoe's comments on Dart Underground are distinctly different than those on Metro North.
Saying that he's in a different portfolio now misses three points: (1) as noted above and in previous posts, the new transport minister holds the same view; (2) his comments mirror the general overwhelming support for DU; (3) in the maybe unlikely event that it was deemed that there was money / they want to buy the election / invest in the future / FG form part of the next Gov etc, such a project needs more than just the minister for transport's sign off, it needs cabinet support and approval.2. Realpolitic? You are hung up on MN being so stand alone. Nothing wrong with that. If it was in place now, it would be heaving with passengers and successful. If it was a DART based solution, it would be subject to IE and all its inherent problems.
Nothing wrong with that if the project could still sustain wide-spread support, but it can't! In fact Metro not only has weak support outside its catchment area, it also has notably strong opposition (which goes far beyond the normal anti-rail stuff).
That's the Realpolitic reality of the matter.3. Your assumption that a DART/Heavy rail based solution can or will allow what you claim is in your head for now. You have absolutely nothing to back that up apart from any submission you make.
Welcome to boards.ie! If you have a reason what's being put forward won't work, than say so.I've no misunderstanding at all. Check your history and look at the repetition. Give me one example in Europe that equates with Ireland.
We're closer to Boston* than Berlin on that one. But there's more than one example in the UK.I fully agree to disagree, but I will not change my opinion. You are arguing your points, but you also accept that it may come to nothing. Jesus H Christ Monument, how can you simply partake in a processs and accept that it may come to damn all? I'm sorry, but you are coming across as a person that is happy to make submissions to plans as and when they are presented to you.
Err... "and accept that it may come to damn all" -- that applies to everything. No project is ever 100% going to go forward and even if something does come of it, lots of what will be commented at early-stage planning like this will never be seen as there's so many options.My major gripe is that we are nowhere near building anything. Please tell me how you would feel if MN and DU were nearly finished and ready for passengers. In fact I put that out to all on this thread and I'll repeat it.
How would you all feel right now if MN and DU were just about ready for passengers this year?
It'd be great to have had progress but we don't.0 -
I'm a boards.ie newbie and can't post links or pic, so I fleshed out this idea myself on my blog, if you want a look, go to the URL "richiedirl.blogspot.ie" and the page "/p/richieds-transport-ideas.html". But basically, the ideas are:
1. Have a rail spur off the Dublin-Belfast line to the airport between Malahide and Portmarnock to the Airport.
All of the existing ideas for a DART/Rail spur to the airport have the spur starting between Clongriffen and Malahide. My idea is for a spur a few miles further north which would approach the Airport from the north.
2. Have a new line from Heuston go through the Phoenix Park Tunnel to Broombridge/Cabra and on to the Airport, going around Finglas and then outside the M50 to the Airport.
Put a new (updated) platform in Heuston on the line that goes through the phoenix park tunnel. Instead of meeting the Sligo/Maynooth line going towards the city center meet it going westbound instead. Between Broombridge and Ashtown (or just after Ashtown), have the new line go north around Finglas, crossing the M50 and around the city, approaching the Airport from the south.
3. Join the two lines up with a station in Dublin Airport
Add in a Spur for a commuter line to Swords and we have a Belfast to Cork Rail line with stops in Dublin Airport and Heuston. Additionally we have a Dart line to Dublin Airport and a commuter rail line to Swords.
This approach would give us:
1. A Belfast to Cork train line via Heuston and the Airport.
2. A commuter line to Swords
3. A Dart line to the Airport
See the map on the blog for a rough look at what the layout would look like (if someone else wants to repost it feel free). Sure, some people are going to accuse me of crayoning and others are going to say the government is too corrupt to implement a good idea but I thought I'd try at least. Anyway, the idea has some similarities to some other posters, but I thought I'd get my version out there.0 -
If you don't mind, I'll post your map:
The route around Finglas scores poorly in the report. The main issue is that is does not add much service to the high population area within the M50 and does not serve trip generators such as DCU.0 -
The route around Finglas scores poorly in the report. The main issue is that is does not add much service to the high population area within the M50 and does not serve trip generators such as DCU.
Thanks for posting that!
The route around finglas in the report, HR7, doesn't start at Heuston, it starts at Broombridge, thus it misses out on a lot of possible interconnects. But, yea, you have a point, my general feeling is that trying to combine the perfect transport system for a single point destination like the airport, with the relatively low population density of north Dublin City is doomed to compromise. The airport needs heavy rail, so that's what we should do first, and properly, then build the tram systems around that.0 -
Isn't the small red bit of new track in that map being taken up by the latest Luas extension?
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richieDIRL wrote: »The airport needs heavy rail, so that's what we should do first, and properly, then build the tram systems around that.
I would favour the Clongriffin spur because otherwise the time to Connolly/DU is 7 min longer at least. The Clongriffin spur could be extended either through Ballymun or onto Swords.
The Ballymun direction could take to the Glasnevin and onto Heuston, via the PPT.
The Swords route could be continued on to join the Northern line north of Malahide, connecting better with Belfast.0 -
Isn't the small red bit of new track in that map being taken up by the latest Luas extension?
There is a fair amount of space: http://binged.it/14JAB420 -
The evaluation of HR8 is or is closer to the posable route I'm suggestion for Dart services -- my suggestion is (a) from Glasnevin take the route towards Docklands but go on into the DU tunnel or (b) the HR8 route.
The section south of Glasnevin (which is shown on HR9) is being suggested mainly or only for Intercity services.
If taking the Docklands route I'd add stations to service the very high density areas along the route. A Phibsborough / Glasnevin station (likely west of the Phibsborough Road) is a no-brainer add on to even with the current Dart plans, but with this idea it would become an interchange station.
Varadkar's and Donohoe's comments on Dart Underground are distinctly different than those on Metro North.
Saying that he's in a different portfolio now misses three points: (1) as noted above and in previous posts, the new transport minister holds the same view; (2) his comments mirror the general overwhelming support for DU; (3) in the maybe unlikely event that it was deemed that there was money / they want to buy the election / invest in the future / FG form part of the next Gov etc, such a project needs more than just the minister for transport's sign off, it needs cabinet support and approval.
Nothing wrong with that if the project could still sustain wide-spread support, but it can't! In fact Metro not only has weak support outside its catchment area, it also has notably strong opposition (which goes far beyond the normal anti-rail stuff).
That's the Realpolitic reality of the matter.
Welcome to boards.ie! If you have a reason what's being put forward won't work, than say so.
We're closer to Boston* than Berlin on that one. But there's more than one example in the UK.
Err... "and accept that it may come to damn all" -- that applies to everything. No project is ever 100% going to go forward and even if something does come of it, lots of what will be commented at early-stage planning like this will never be seen as there's so many options.
It'd be great to have had progress but we don't.
Once again, I stress that all this talk of HR8 plus, is in your head. It is not an official proposal. It is an idea you have concocted based on ideas floated years ago by lobbyists. Furthermore, all this talk of connectivity with the rest of the country, looks to me like you are trying to suggest that MN was merely a project for Dubs and Dubs only.
Your point about MN having no support outside its catchment area, doesn't mean that your DART for all plan will have any more support outside the catchment area. Are you seriously suggesting that Mary in Galway gives a damn? Poor Mary will still see it as "money being spent in Dublin". The only lack of support for MN that is relevant is the current Governments lack of support and the only reason they have given is cost and how that money could fund roads and other public transport projects. HR8 or even your HR8 plus will cost approx. the same or maybe more than MN. For the record, can you elaborate on who objects/doesn't support MN apart from the Government?
I believe that this Governments lack of support is because it was essentially the brainchild of the last few Governments that were not FG lead. Not that I'm convinced the last Government would've built it even if they had the money. MN went through an exhaustive public consultation process and as an airport connection, was proven to be of benefit to the population along the mainline rail network especially in conjunction with DU.0 -
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Sam Russell wrote: »I would favour the Clongriffin spur because otherwise the time to Connolly/DU is 7 min longer at least. The Clongriffin spur could be extended either through Ballymun or onto Swords.
The Ballymun direction could take to the Glasnevin and onto Heuston, via the PPT.
The Swords route could be continued on to join the Northern line north of Malahide, connecting better with Belfast.
Sure, linking just north of Clongriffen is going to be a bit faster, but where did you get the 7 minute figure? I'd have thought 3 or 4 minutes.
I'm also a fan of bringing a Swords route to join the Northern line north of Malahide, but that means you have to cover the expense of two links From the Northern line to the Airport.0 -
This study is about how to connect the city centre to the airport & Swords.
As such, any HR line would be required to serve Connolly and/or Pearse. Heuston isn't in the city centre.0 -
Which two roads would Kerry County Council like to see built? The Macroom (Cork) and Adare (Limerick) bypasses. some people can actually be less than myopic(!).Your point about MN having no support outside its catchment area, doesn't mean that your DART for all plan will have any more support outside the catchment area. Are you seriously suggesting that Mary in Galway gives a damn? Poor Mary will still see it as "money being spent in Dublin".0 -
This study is about how to connect the city centre to the airport & Swords.
As such, any HR line would be required to serve Connolly and/or Pearse. Heuston isn't in the city centre.
Well actually it's about the public transport along the entire Swords corridor and the surrounding areas, including improved connectivity with all those areas.0 -
Well actually it's about the public transport along the entire Swords corridor and the surrounding areas, including improved connectivity with all those areas.
"The overall objective of this Fingal/North Dublin transport study is to identify the optimum long term public transport solution to connect Dublin City Centre, Dublin Airport and Swords."
Heuston is obviously important in the national context, but its not the priority in this particular study.
I would like to see any HR8-style route branch at Glasnevin Jn to serving both Heuston and the city centre. But if expense was an issue, Heuston is the secondary consideration.0 -
It might be worth noting that there is one week left to make a submission as part of this public consultation. Engaging with the process does not indicate support of the project, study, or the process itself. Not engaging means missing an opportunity to have your voice heard.0
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Which two roads would Kerry County Council like to see built? The Macroom (Cork) and Adare (Limerick) bypasses. some people can actually be less than myopic(!).
What are you on about? Is this some kind of test to disprove my analogy with Mary? What have roads on the Cork and Limerick borders with Kerry got to do with any point I've made? Monument is the one going on about objections to MN and apart from central Government, I can only assume he is referring to the stixs factor.
You of all people should appreciate what I have talked about here.0 -
It might be worth noting that there is one week left to make a submission as part of this public consultation. Engaging with the process does not indicate support of the project, study, or the process itself. Not engaging means missing an opportunity to have your voice heard.
My submission has been made on the basis of what I have said here. However I am fully aware of how this is going to play out because all is not right.
1. The current Government stated that a decision on MN would be made in 2015. That is on course.
2. The Labour Party are against MN since before they entered Government.
Eamonn Gilmore was quoted in 2010 as saying that "MN would be shot back" if they were in Government.
Once the election campaign got under way, Labour did a u-turn.Deputy Gilmore said: 'Labour is committed to progressing with Metro North and there is absolutely no doubt about that.
'What we have said is that we are going to take all of the projects in the National Development Plan and all of the transport projects and other projects and revise them in Government.
'What we are going to do is prioritise those projects that are in a position to generate employment at an early stage.'
Asked if Metro North will be one of those projects, he said: 'I have received communications and heard what Fingal County Council, in particular, has had to say about Metro North and the local authority and both Brendan (Senator Brendan Ryan) and Tom (Kelleher) have convinced me that when the test, if you like, is applied on the number of jobs created by the project, Metro North will stand up to that and should be in that priority list.'
Our current FG lead Government, that have gone cold on the idea are quoted many times in opposition, including a completely contradictory Leo Varadkar.
Recently Leo in the Transport portfolio, wrote off MN, saying that the money would be better spent on roads and other public transport projects. But when trying to get elected, he said the following.· ‘For the record, I strongly support Metro North’, and
· ‘On Friday, February 25th, a vote for Fine Gael is vote for a party that has a positive view of Metro North.’
Since getting elected he has said the following.In a letter to Fingal county councillors, Mr Varadkar said he is "as disappointed as anyone that Metro North has been deferred indefinitely"."It just isn't affordable," he added, explaining that even if Metro North was built, fares would have to be €20 each way to cover the operating costs as "we would not be able to subsidise it". The minister raised the possibility of substituting the underground proposal with an above-ground option.
"I hope that someday it will be possible to built Metro North or perhaps an on-street project would be cheaper," he said.
Alarm bells start to ring and the oul Fingal study comes into play.
Politicians do not care and we merely make yet more submissions in the hope that something comes out of it. Argue with me all you like lads, but there just isn't enough guts to build anything big including Monuments big HR8 Plus and beyond.
For 40 odd years this nation has fudged any serious investment in rail transport, but it has delivered lots of opportunities for wannabe engineers to add a contribution.0 -
Once again, I stress that all this talk of HR8 plus, is in your head. It is not an official proposal.
It's mostly made up of a few options in the report jointed together and it is noted that HR8 would have to be developed further.
That's pretty clear from my post of the map which clearly states that I Photoshoped it mainly based on different bits of the report.It is an idea you have concocted based on ideas floated years ago by lobbyists.
Err... not sure what you're on about here? Who are are the lobbyists you're talking about and what did they lobby for?Furthermore, all this talk of connectivity with the rest of the country, looks to me like you are trying to suggest that MN was merely a project for Dubs and Dubs only.
It's not a suggestion. That's just the way it is. Or at least the way it's viewed. And it's worse than that really -- it's largely seen as just a project for a section of Dublin.Your point about MN having no support outside its catchment area, doesn't mean that your DART for all plan will have any more support outside the catchment area.
The catchment area with a direct service along HR8+ could include Balbriggan to Hazelhatch and Celbridge, and on Intercity to Dublin Airport it would at the least include direct services from Cork to Belfast, if not also some services direct from the airport to Galway.
The amount of single-transfer rail trips to the airport would also increase.Are you seriously suggesting that Mary in Galway gives a damn? Poor Mary will still see it as "money being spent in Dublin".
I'm suggesting that's there's a good chance that Mike in Cork, Sara in Portlaoise, Jim in Drogheda and Jane in Dundalk will see the point of a direct service to the airport.
I'm suggesting Alex in Balbriggan, Harry in Skerries, Emily in Rush, James in Adamstown, Aaron in the Dublin Docklands, and Amelia in Phibsborough are likely to see the point of a direct service to the DCU, and/or the airport, and/or Swords.The only lack of support for MN that is relevant is the current Governments lack of support...
For the record, can you elaborate on who objects/doesn't support MN apart from the Government?
Which one is it? Only the government's support is relevant or you want me to elaborate who else objects to Metro North? It can't be both.0 -
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It's mostly made up of a few options in the report jointed together and it is noted that HR8 would have to be developed further.
That's pretty clear from my post of the map which clearly states that I Photoshoped it mainly based on different bits of the report
I understand that, but I'm sure you appreciate my point about it being a concoction of ideas.Err... not sure what you're on about here? Who are are the lobbyists you're talking about and what did they lobby for?
Back in the early/mid noughties, groups like Platform 11 and others were floating ideas like yours. I believe it was based on a viewpoint that MN wasn't necessary and HR should be the priority. The Dublin rail plan was backed heavily and I once saw a Platform 11 graphic proposing a HR tunnel under Glasnevin and joining the MN alignment when it was originally proposed to run further west than the current planned route via Drumcondra. That's more or less HR8. I know for a fact that the MN O'Reilly Report featured a watered down version of this by recommending further study of a MN/HR interchange at Glasnevin junction, because the original MN proposal actually lacked any interchange with the Maynooth line in this area. Subsequently MN was routed under Drumcondra road and the planned interchange made at Drumcondra station.It's not a suggestion. That's just the way it is. Or at least the way it's viewed. And it's worse than that really -- it's largely seen as just a project for a section of Dublin.
You really do need to back this up with evidence. Honestly, I'm not being smart, but I would like to see some solid evidence for this opinion.[The catchment area with a direct service along HR8+ could include Balbriggan to Hazelhatch and Celbridge, and on Intercity to Dublin Airport it would at the least include direct services from Cork to Belfast, if not also some services direct from the airport to Galway.
The amount of single-transfer rail trips to the airport would also increase.
Interesting idea, but based on many assumptions and adding IC trips to what should essentially should be a commuter project. Any rail solution that can connect an International Airport to the mainline rail network in two transfers is more than acceptable. However, I believe your HR8 idea is more about "connecting the country" as opposed to "connecting a city". It also comes across as very centred on the Airport.I'm suggesting that's there's a good chance that Mike in Cork, Sara in Portlaoise, Jim in Drogheda and Jane in Dundalk will see the point of a direct service to the airport.
I'm suggesting Alex in Balbriggan, Harry in Skerries, Emily in Rush, James in Adamstown, Aaron in the Dublin Docklands, and Amelia in Phibsborough are likely to see the point of a direct service to the DCU, and/or the airport, and/or Swords.
Still sounds very centred on the Airport. Within DU and MN these trips are easily doable with the added city centre/nothside penetration that MN affords. I don't think you are selling it well and it just comes across as access to the Airport.Which one is it? Only the government's support is relevant or you want me to elaborate who else objects to Metro North? It can't be both.
I know the Government stance and all its condradictions. I would like to hear who you think objects to MN outside of political circles.0
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