Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study

D.L.R.

monument wrote: »

The main Clongriffin to Airport branch is not suggested to have an underground station at the airport.

Only some of the extra options did, ie one which continues onto Swords.

HR2 is the option being considered though, which includes the Swords element, or at least the provision for it.

You're right though, the language is vague.

Van.Bosch

D.L.R. wrote: »

HR2 is the option being considered though, which includes the Swords element, or at least the provision for it.

You're right though, the language is vague.

HR1 is being considered in a combined option and I think the current thinking is that that's the favourite.

D.L.R.

Van.Bosch wrote: »

HR1 is being considered in a combined option and I think the current thinking is that that's the favourite.

Even so, intercity services to Belfast will still not be possible. Not without a delta junction on the northern line and/or a turnback facility at the airport.

Van.Bosch

D.L.R. wrote: »

Even so, intercity services to Belfast will still not be possible. Not without a delta junction on the northern line and/or a turnback facility at the airport.

True I imagine the delta would be more efficient, especially if it went through swords but I suspect I am crayon drawing now or making a big leap.

I reckon the line is being just designed with DART in mind.

Aard

It would appear as though there has been no "future-proofing" taken into consideration by way of building a delta junction. The fact is that the design brief (in as much as there is one) does not consider access to the airport from a national perspective, but merely as part of a Dublin-Airport-Swords connection.

L1011

murphaph wrote: »

I wouldn't expect it to get to 50%, but a proper rail based solution as part of a general improvement of rail based PT in Dublin will definitely make a dent on DAA's car parking receipts.

I honestly doubt they'll even notice it.

The BER 50% is just as ridiculous as the 2012 opening date or the original cost, at that. Not a single figure they devised to justify the plan has been proven to be true. You could almost see it as an elaborate and bloody expensive scheme to close Templehof and nothing else.

murphaph

L1011 wrote: »

I honestly doubt they'll even notice it.

The BER 50% is just as ridiculous as the 2012 opening date or the original cost, at that. Not a single figure they devised to justify the plan has been proven to be true. You could almost see it as an elaborate and bloody expensive scheme to close Templehof and nothing else.

MUC has 30% PT access and is bloody miles outside Munich. Why would BER have a lower PT access rate when it's about 1 mile from the Berlin city boundary and will be better connected to PT than MUC (MUC just has the S-Bahn and buses, BER will have the S-Bahn, buses, regional and even Intercity Express trains-these bits are all actually ready as well! It's the airport above that's a shambles).

Edit: 50% may be optimistic, but it should, by rights, be higher than the 30% MUC achieve.

Idbatterim

Dublin airport passenger numbers are booming. The Daa had the below planned and may well proceed with it at some stage in the future. Dublin has a massive housing shortage and huge amounts of land around the airport, swords etc, that would be sandwiched between a rail line to Swords, the M1 and Northern Line which it is proposed to extend the Dart further out. I.e you would have great infrastructure, with lots of land, i.e. being able to house large amounts of people.

And they are going to try and foist some half arsed measure like mostly above ground luas they have proposed, at a time where they might have a chance in the very short term of making their numbers "stick"?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0425/102520-airport/

Van.Bosch

If the Luas line option is selected I wonder what the marginal cost would be of running it from swords to Malahide train station similar to the heavy rail option.

I appreciate it would make the green line ridiculously long and that not many would travel to town from Malahide but it would open up:
-malahide to swords
-malahide to airport
-northern line to airport

Aard

I think that tgat would be an unfortunate sellotape fix. If the line is going to extend to the Northern Line, it might as well be heavy gauge from the start to allow through running of Belfast trains.

Sam Russell

I still think the Clogriffin-Airport Dart spur makes so much sense whatever else gets built. It could be built quickly, cheaply, and would benefit from every other bit of infrastructure - particularly if DU goes ahead.

Van.Bosch

Aard wrote: »

I think that tgat would be an unfortunate sellotape fix. If the line is going to extend to the Northern Line, it might as well be heavy gauge from the start to allow through running of Belfast trains.

Sorry I meant in addition to clongriffin spur for heavy rail.

Aard

Sam Russell wrote: »

I still think the Clogriffin-Airport Dart spur makes so much sense whatever else gets built. It could be built quickly, cheaply, and would benefit from every other bit of infrastructure - particularly if DU goes ahead.

But it also dictates what does (and more importantly what doesn't) get built as a transport solution in the coming decades.

stevedublin

Sam Russell wrote: »

I still think the Clogriffin-Airport Dart spur makes so much sense whatever else gets built. It could be built quickly, cheaply, and would benefit from every other bit of infrastructure - particularly if DU goes ahead.

The journey from airport to city centre by train would be quite long/circuitous this way.
It would also put more pressure on the congested howth junction to city centre rail line.

Sam Russell

Aard wrote: »

But it also dictates what does (and more importantly what doesn't) get built as a transport solution in the coming decades.

But it is more likely to be built soon, rather than never like is likely with MN.

We will end up with nothing but reports, studies, plans, re-plans, lite-plans, and more studies. The closure of the Harcourt Line, and the destruction of Dublin's trams went ahead but their reinstatements has taken decades and will not be complete for a century.

Sam Russell

stevedublin wrote: »

The journey from airport to city centre by train would be quite long/circuitous this way.
It would also put more pressure on the congested howth junction to city centre rail line.

I reckon 17 mins from the Airport to Connolly - perhaps less. The Northern Line is being resignalled which will resolve some of the congestion. A full 8 carriage train will carry as many passengers as 10 or 12 coaches in more comfort and less time. With DU, they will get to SSG in perhaps 20 mins.

LXFlyer

stevedublin wrote: »

The journey from airport to city centre by train would be quite long/circuitous this way.
It would also put more pressure on the congested howth junction to city centre rail line.

What about the additional connectivity to north-east Dublin that would be added?


It's not all about the city centre to Airport market. There are thousands of people working in the airport too, many of whom live in the DART catchment area.


The impact of routing DART to the Airport on the existing infrastructure is overstated. The likelihood is that the Howth branch would be converted into an off-peak shuttle between Howth Junction and Howth, thus freeing up paths for the airport service.

Carawaystick

Sam Russell wrote: »

I reckon 17 mins from the Airport to Connolly - perhaps less. The Northern Line is being resignalled which will resolve some of the congestion. A full 8 carriage train will carry as many passengers as 10 or 12 coaches in more comfort and less time. With DU, they will get to SSG in perhaps 20 mins.

A bus can currently get from Dublin airport to the city centre in 17 mins.
An inexpensive upgrade of the roads from the M50 past the point and up the quays or allowing the tramlines be used would be several billion cheaper than any new rail link.

Sam Russell

Carawaystick wrote: »

A bus can currently get from Dublin airport to the city centre in 17 mins.
An inexpensive upgrade of the roads from the M50 past the point and up the quays or allowing the tramlines be used would be several billion cheaper than any new rail link.

The estimate for the Clongriffin to Airport is only €100m to €200m so they cannot save more than that.

The Aircoach takes 20 mins to get the same distance, and that is for one coach using the tunnel. If 10 coaches were to travel the same route, there would be congestion on loading and unloading adding time. Such coaches could manage those times off-peak but not in heavy traffic, while the train could manage that time always - assuming the timetable is drawn up correctly.

Trains are always preferred by travellers - all things being equal. Fares would be a possible issue and IR may well charge a premium rate but then Aircoach will take you to the city centre for €8 while Dublin Bus will charge much the same on the 747 service bet much less on the local bus, which Dart fares would equate to for that distance.

Frequency is another issue and a 30 minute service would probable work for most of the time while a 20 minute service might be possible for busy times (which for airline passengers and airport workers do not equate to commuter busy times).

I would think most people would be delighted to go by Dart (or Airport Express) with such a service.

Irish Steve

At the risk of upsetting some of the more focussed participants, Fingal is a much larger area that Swords, it extends to within 1 Km of Ashbourne, which is the second largest town in Meath, and desperately in need of some sensible transport links to Dublin. There is a lot of Fingal that could be being used more productively if the transport structure was better, and just focussing on the Airport and Swords is to ignore a substantial part of the area that is in need of a better service than it is getting at present.

One of the major problems of the way things get done at the moment is that they are too focussed on local areas rather than taking a look at issues that go beyond local borders, and that's probably down to the age old problems of voting constituencies and getting re elected, a TD in Swords will not give a continental damn about the fact that Meath has exactly the same problems with transport as Swords, but if a wider brush approach to some of these issues was taken, it would be surprising how effective some of the solutions would be.

cgcsb

So the study was supposed to conclude in Q1 2015. With about an hour left in the last working day of the quarter, are we to get any sort of results?

stevedublin

cgcsb wrote: »

So the study was supposed to conclude in Q1 2015. With about an hour left in the last working day of the quarter, are we to get any sort of results?

study seems to be still ongoing:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/donohoe-to-bring-ambitious-transport-plan-for-capital-to-cabinet-by-summer-31078712.html

cgcsb

I guessed as much. The nta's website is still saying Q1 though.

monument

From Minister for Transport via KildareStreet.ie:

The six projects shortlisted under Phase One of the Fingal/North Dublin Transport Study published on 8th December are now undergoing further independent analysis assessing cost, engineering, environmental and usage forecasts. The National Transport Authority (NTA) have indicated that they expect to submit the output of the Study in early April.

That output will then require careful consideration in tandem with other analyses being undertaken, including the updating of a business case for the DART Underground project and the work being carried out in the preparation of a draft Transport Strategy for the GDA. I expect to finalise this review by mid-2015 in conjunction with the development of the transport strategy for the region.

Oasis_Dublin

Finalise it just in time for the run up to 2016 general election. I wish I wasn't so cynical, but then I am realistic.

murphaph

Yet more paralysis analysis.

Sam Russell

The Government should just go ahead with any project that makes sense.

DU is obvious and could be sold as helping connection to the smoke for the country cousins.

MN (uncut) should also go ahead.

My favourite, because it could go ahead very quickly and is quite cheap, is the Colngriffin to Airport link.

If they announced the go ahead for these, it will be well past the next election before any digging starts. Current low interest might be a goad/opportunity for them to move now. They should look for EU help if it is possible.

Sam Russell

Irish times article about Luas being the preferred option for link to Airport.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/luas-link-to-airport-likeliest-alternative-to-metro-north-1.2177345

jd

Sam Russell wrote: »

Irish times article about Luas being the preferred option for link to Airport.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/luas-link-to-airport-likeliest-alternative-to-metro-north-1.2177345

I suspect the intention always was to do this + Dart Underground + a Dart spur to the airport.

AngryLips

If the tunneled Luas option under Glasnevin gets the green light then the resulting Broombridge spur will become as redundant the Connolly spur before the bloody thing is even built.