What is coaching ?

tunney

What is a coach? Its not just what the coach is but the SLAs in place with the client. A quick google can find that many coaches offer varying SLAs at varying price points. So the same person could be a coach to some, a mentor to others, and an advisor to more.

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

so when you look into coaching or buying a shoe you first have to ask what do you want and to know that you need to know whats out there .

I thought I was being constructive by not letting the shoe thing become a topic, but this is where your analogy (IMO) is breaking down.

See, people come to me as a specialist (coach) for advice (coaching) and education as to which shoe (plan) suits their specific needs. Customers don't or rarely come to me saying 'I want', they look to the person with the knowledge for that knowledge to be imparted and gain from it there.

To me, addressing the OP "What is coaching?" is as different to the individual being coached as it is to the coach.

As someone said earlier it is like a courtship, as someone looking for a coach I would need someone who is well founded in their knowledge of what I am trying to achieve (up to me to outline it) and has the experience and skill to manage me through the coaching process and probably recognising in me before I do what potential there is (if any).

But like most people I would expect to be able to look at several different coaches and their methods in acrtion before making that first approach. I think a coach like any other business needs a very clear statement of this is what I do, how I do it and the market I cater for so potential clients can start to form a relationship with the concept of a coach.

peter kern

Dory Dory wrote: »

Peter, to help us understand exactly what you are trying to glean from this thread, maybe toss out specific (simple) questions and then we can discuss. ??

ok lets start from the very beginnig when we start to think about how do i get better we have many options so the first step for a newbe would be to find out whats avaialbe and then one has to eliminate option

then we have to decide if i want to look for help or if i want to do it my way

I am right at the beginning of what i want to do for myself this year but more importantly 2016
this is what I have considert

book i have done that and is not what i need at this stage

online program there might be one iam intersted in but again this is not what i need

adviser would be suitalbe for me ie a second opinion somebody that will keep me honest and will read me well. I would be writting a rough plan based on a discussion we had, so in my case the adviser would be the 2nd paid of eyes some might think this is not as valuable asa coach in my case this is by far the most important thing i am loking for as when you train hard you often cant see the the wood for all the trees and its very important to have somebday that sees it from the distance .

a mentor is not going to work for me ( worked brilliantly though when I i started triahtlon)

coaching this is then something i would have to put into sub groups going from husband santa claus to prescribion but first i have to really decide if i want a coach ( in my case i also know the coaches i want are 250 euro a month upwards some 500 plus ( so this is certainy something very important in the process for me the budget)

no coach is pretty much ruled out at least from april onwards as explained above.

so right now this is the frist step of my process and realistically i can rule out book online program or program with one change in 4 weeks etc
and mentor .
so i have already naarowd down the process.


so question 1 I wonder how do people go about this first step and how many people really have considert this or another thought process or do you just think johnney does this so i will do the same.

peter kern

thanks for this will reply at a later stage as there is some very good stuff in there
cheers

AKW wrote: »

I thought I was being constructive by not letting the shoe thing become a topic, but this is where your analogy (IMO) is breaking down.

See, people come to me as a specialist (coach) for advice (coaching) and education as to which shoe (plan) suits their specific needs. Customers don't or rarely come to me saying 'I want', they look to the person with the knowledge for that knowledge to be imparted and gain from it there.

To me, addressing the OP "What is coaching?" is as different to the individual being coached as it is to the coach.

As someone said earlier it is like a courtship, as someone looking for a coach I would need someone who is well founded in their knowledge of what I am trying to achieve (up to me to outline it) and has the experience and skill to manage me through the coaching process and probably recognising in me before I do what potential there is (if any).

But like most people I would expect to be able to look at several different coaches and their methods in acrtion before making that first approach. I think a coach like any other business needs a very clear statement of this is what I do, how I do it and the market I cater for so potential clients can start to form a relationship with the concept of a coach.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

ok lets start from the very beginnig when we start to think about how do i get better we have many options so the first step for a newbe would be to find out whats avaialbe and then one has to eliminate option

then we have to decide if i want to look for help or if i want to do it my way

I am right at the beginning of what i want to do for myself this year but more importantly 2016
this is what I have considert

book i have done that and is not what i need at this stage

online program there might be one iam intersted in but again this is not what i need

adviser would be suitalbe for me ie a second opinion somebody that will keep me honest and will read me well. I would be writting a rough plan based on a discussion we had, so in my case the adviser would be the 2nd paid of eyes some might think this is not as valuable asa coach in my case this is by far the most important thing i am loking for as when you train hard you often cant see the the wood for all the trees and its very important to have somebday that sees it from the distance .

a mentor is not going to work for me ( worked brilliantly though when I i started triahtlon)

coaching this is then something i would have to put into sub groups going from husband santa claus to prescribion but first i have to really decide if i want a coach ( in my case i also know the coaches i want are 250 euro a month upwards some 500 plus ( so this is certainy something very important in the process for me the budget)

no coach is pretty much ruled out at least from april onwards as explained above.

so right now this is the frist step of my process and realistically i can rule out book online program or program with one change in 4 weeks etc
and mentor .
so i have already naarowd down the process.


so question 1 I wonder how do people go about this first step and how many people really have considert this or another thought process or do you just think johnney does this so i will do the same.

500 snots a month. Thats high end.

gerfmurphy

As a beginner / novice my expectation of a "coach" and "what coaching is" is simply expert advise for me and my situation .
something a book will not offer for me.
AKW mentioned" specialist" and "expert", that is what I would expect: a person will offer me an informed opinion and guidance of my needs to be more competitive.

This would have to fall into my budget and time allowance, both of which would be guided by my expectation of what I want to achieve, all of which should be advised by a coach.

from me I need to be able to trust the advice offered, but as a professional offering a service that should be part of the coaches job to instill that confidence.

I have little experience of coaching in tri, but a good portion of my life I was coached in TKD, in that I found the most important thing any coach achieved was respect, more so than results.

re the question Peter proposed at 250 -500 a month I would think everyone would consider all the options, to the point of having tried most of them, before committing to such an outlay.

shansey

gerfmurphy wrote: »

from me I need to be able to trust the advice offered, but as a professional offering a service that should be part of the coaches job to instill that confidence.

Definitely agree with this.

I tried coaching for a month and for what it was going to cost vs the benefits I thought i would get it wasn't for me.

tunney

shansey wrote: »

Definitely agree with this.

I tried coaching for a month and for what it was going to cost vs the benefits I thought i would get it wasn't for me.

When I started in 2005 or so with my coach I was second guessing and questioning. Tango, former elite athlete used to being coached, said "Dave, commit completely or stop now. It will not work if you do not commit completely and relinquish total control".

I did, it worked.

RJM85

tunney wrote: »

When I started in 2005 or so with my coach I was second guessing and questioning. Tango, former elite athlete used to being coached, said "Dave, commit completely or stop now. It will not work if you do not commit completely and relinquish total control".

I did, it worked.

I was talking to a club member about coaching recently - I got the impression that he has a coach, but does his own thing half the time. May as well light a couple of 50's on fire every month.

There's no point in having a coach if you a) don't believe that they know what they're doing and b) aren't willing to do exactly what they ask of you (at least to the best of your ability).

MojoMaker

The last thing a beginner needs is a coach, although understandably there are a lot of coaches that will take a beginner's money. It would seem to me that an athlete would get the most benefit from a coach after acclimatising to triathlon over at least a season or two and having sorted out their serious long-term goals and aspirations in the sport.

Nobody needs a (dedicated) coach to get from the sofa to the start (or finish) line of a sprint triathlon. Although admittedly some clubs are better than others at the coaching gig, a beginner would be far better served by mixing it up with fellow beginners in a club and learning from the systems and structures they have in place and from the more experienced athletes that naturally become training acquaintances over time.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

RJM85 wrote: »

I was talking to a club member about coaching recently - I got the impression that he has a coach, but does his own thing half the time. May as well light a couple of 50's on fire every month.

There's no point in having a coach if you a) don't believe that they know what they're doing and b) aren't willing to do exactly what they ask of you (at least to the best of your ability).

100%, there is nothing more infuriating as a coach setting a plan and the coachee going off doing their own thing. Why have a coach in the first place!

Just touching on previous posts made, I do believe a good coach should be able to flex their style to be able to deal with different characters they work with. Some will require tough love and some need to be nurtured a bit more. There is not one style or approach that works for all so the key is understanding the athlete and approach/work with them accordingly.

pgibbo

peter kern wrote: »

ok lets start from the very beginnig when we start to think about how do i get better we have many options so the first step for a newbe would be to find out whats avaialbe and then one has to eliminate option

so question 1 I wonder how do people go about this first step and how many people really have considert this or another thought process or do you just think johnney does this so i will do the same.

To address your question Peter I believe there are a few different approaches.

1. You may know someone by reputation and have heard a lot of good things about them as a coach. In this scenario most people will talk to the coach and maybe some of their athletes for some more info. This should help them determine if they're a good fit or not.

2. If you don't know any coaches by reputation next step would be to ask your peer group for names and/or references. I think this is important. Your needs could be a lot more demanding than someone who does tri as a hobby or is a newbie to the sport. Hence, finding a good fit might be challenging.

3. Reach out to the likes of KT or other athletes that are from your area (Galway for me) and are successful in the sport and are approachable. Then it's a case of chatting to them about your aspirations and trying to see if they know someone that would be a good fit.

4. Google - but this would probably just result in online coaching or coaching plans.

5. Post a question on boards or reach out to posters that you respect and feel know the sport well.

6. Go with the coach everyone else in the club uses.

They're the main steps I can think of now for step 1.

peter kern

i think this statement can be completely wrong learn something proper form the begining and its the best you can do . in skiing this would be something very common but it has to be face to face coaching ao it really depends what one wants but if one wants to ge thte mechaniques right at the begining i think its a fantatic way to start.

MojoMaker wrote: »

The last thing a beginner needs is a coach, although understandably there are a lot of coaches that will take a beginner's money. It would seem to me that an athlete would get the most benefit from a coach after acclimatising to triathlon over at least a season or two and having sorted out their serious long-term goals and aspirations in the sport.

Nobody needs a (dedicated) coach to get from the sofa to the start (or finish) line of a sprint triathlon. Although admittedly some clubs are better than others at the coaching gig, a beginner would be far better served by mixing it up with fellow beginners in a club and learning from the systems and structures they have in place and from the more experienced athletes that naturally become training acquaintances over time.

MojoMaker

Yes Peter, and athletes can get this by registering with TI and joining a club. A dedicated coach for a complete beginner taking up triathlon to lose weight or tick a bucket list item would be a waste of time for athlete and coach alike. This is where the instant gratification of "give me a plan NOW" comes into play. I have no doubt there are coaches out there who would happily take a lot of money in exchange for some rudimentary advice cheaply available from one's own peer group.

If the athlete is at the stage where they need performance-oriented structure, assistance with working to power, utilising lactate analysis, key efficient race management, or any advanced level triathlon-specific topics then hooking up with a coach could be the key to serious progression.

If on the other hand the intention is to wait for a voicemail telling the athlete to get off their fat a$$ and run once a week, then maybe coaching is not such a brilliant idea.

For something like skiiing however, how many people jump straight onto skis without taking a 101 class in a group situation - almost none I'd imagine. But even then, you don't hire a ski coach until you can ski, you may get in touch with a ski teacher to learn the basic granted. Assuming we're talking about adults here and not children (who actually need coaching from day 1) I reckon a club is a much better idea for someone starting out and keep the $$$ in the pocket.

peter kern

but why would they want a coach in the first place iam sure they think about other options first.

for instance when i started triathlon i was not a bad cyclist not a bad runner and for an triathlete not a bad swimmer( all self taughed) so when i started I was more than lucky that i had an veteran triathlete in my village that was pretty handy I leanred a lot from this guy just by training with him

than i trained with a book and this worked also quite well

in 2004 i trained a few month in a squad and i leared a lot to just watch a pro training and overall see how austrailans train ( all the age grouper train loads of hours there) and after a few month i had 3 month good run coaching
i could have gooten more out from that time but it worked well

then i trained 7 month on my own and cycling through australia new zealand and training for 2 ironam was extremly characterbuilding so no coach was a brill option as i understood what it is about hard fecking work day in day out rinse and repeate
and i finsihed 12th at ironmam arizona

the one thing i would change i would have worked with a coach when i came back 2005
and funny actually tunnys coach advised me to a guy in switzerland called Sutton ..

anyway at this point with a coach i do feel i would have made another jump forward.( you see i was afraid of taking rest days ....)

nowadays iam afraid to train ... I and what i really need is a motivator. but then again once i put my mind into it i go still a bit back to the person that gets a fraid to take a rest day.

so at different times different things can be good.

pgibbo wrote: »

To address your question Peter I believe there are a few different approaches.

1. You may know someone by reputation and have heard a lot of good things about them as a coach. In this scenario most people will talk to the coach and maybe some of their athletes for some more info. This should help them determine if they're a good fit or not.

2. If you don't know any coaches by reputation next step would be to ask your peer group for names and/or references. I think this is important. Your needs could be a lot more demanding than someone who does tri as a hobby or is a newbie to the sport. Hence, finding a good fit might be challenging.

3. Reach out to the likes of KT or other athletes that are from your area (Galway for me) and are successful in the sport and are approachable. Then it's a case of chatting to them about your aspirations and trying to see if they know someone that would be a good fit.

4. Google - but this would probably just result in online coaching or coaching plans.

5. Post a question on boards or reach out to posters that you respect and feel know the sport well.

6. Go with the coach everyone else in the club uses.

They're the main steps I can think of now for step 1.

peter kern

there is loads of people that have a sports background in another sport . but i guess this is where me might think diffeently
i take it toally for granted that if somebody looks for a coach they dodnt want to tick the bucket list, i totally assume they want to get as good as they can .
and its smart to take a coach form a beginner and i think a far better investment than having a BMW.

everybody else is wasting their money ie the ones that dodnt give it their best
and yes some people are very time challenged, but most people are just lazy
regardless the level that is waste money to have a coach
the level or talent has nothing to do with that IMO.

for the bucket list person its very different and as you say those people are best off in a tri club

MojoMaker wrote: »

Yes Peter, and athletes can get this by registering with TI and joining a club. A dedicated coach for a complete beginner taking up triathlon to lose weight or tick a bucket list item would be a waste of time for athlete and coach alike. This is where the instant gratification of "give me a plan NOW" comes into play. I have no doubt there are coaches out there who would happily take a lot of money in exchange for some rudimentary advice cheaply available from one's own peer group.

If the athlete is at the stage where they need performance-oriented structure, assistance with working to power, utilising lactate analysis, key efficient race management, or any advanced level triathlon-specific topics then hooking up with a coach could be the key to serious progression.

If on the other hand the intention is to wait for a voicemail telling the athlete to get off their fat a$$ and run once a week, then maybe coaching is not such a brilliant idea.

For something like skiiing however, how many people jump straight onto skis without taking a 101 class in a group situation - almost none I'd imagine. But even then, you don't hire a ski coach until you can ski, you may get in touch with a ski teacher to learn the basic granted. Assuming we're talking about adults here and not children (who actually need coaching from day 1) I reckon a club is a much better idea for someone starting out and keep the $$$ in the pocket.

rooneyjm

For most people there is probably a natural progression of

Year 1) Try out a few races
Year 2) Join a club & get some advice on your weakest areas from mentors in that club
Year 3) Take training, racing more seriously.
Year 4 on wards) Maybe get a coach.

In the first few years the gains are coming relatively easily so your thinking I don't need a coach at this point, even though with a coach you could be much better. And going back to your original post you probably think your getting coached but in fact your getting mentored / advised by that guy in your club with the experience. He's happy to give you a bit or plenty of advice but he's not your coach.

A coach is going to look at it more holistically, give you more feedback (good&bad), help you set milestones, targets, goals and maybe with a coach you are more likely to hit those goals (like the guy you have the 50 euro with).

mossym

MojoMaker wrote: »

I reckon a club is a much better idea for someone starting out and keep the $$$ in the pocket.

funny you say that given a conversation i was having today..but that really depends on the club, some clubs just are not set up to train and would do more harm than good to someone setting out.

even if that isn't the case, the flexibility 1:1 coaching offers far exceeds that of a club. get an hour run? do it any time. 5am, 6am, 11pm. no tied to a schedule. limitations on time, young family, tough job, travel, don't care if you are year one or year 4 in triathlon.

for the same reasons, 15 hours a week in a group environment, where maybe 6 are useful for the person, could be far exceeded by 8 hours total properly prescribed by a coach.

i think there are lots of reasons not waiting till 3 or 4 years in before going to a coach is a better choice. clubs work fine for some. not for all though. a few of the posts seem to suggest you need to an apprentice before going with a coach, i;d argue if you have valid reasons there is no reason not to go with a coach off the bat.

Oryx

It probably takes time for people to realise they want to take triathlon seriously and invest funds in coaching. It starts for most as a pastime, not something that requires a coach. At most they probably get swim coaching because that's a technical skill, the other disciplines you'll improve just by getting out and doing them, initially.

gerfmurphy

Oryx wrote: »

It probably takes time for people to realise they want to take triathlon seriously and invest funds in coaching. It starts for most as a pastime, not something that requires a coach. At most they probably get swim coaching because that's a technical skill, the other disciplines you'll improve just by getting out and doing them, initially.

I would agree with this as the second part is exactly where I see myself.

rooneyjm

If you took a 100 athletes new to tri and gave 50 a coach and let the other 50 off on there own then the 50 coached athletes will out perform the non-coached, no question. If of the coached 50, half got hands on personal training and the other half got a plan to follow the hands on coached will out perform the others.

But how many people come into tri thinking I'm going to give this a 100%, be the absolute best I can be and get a coach from the get go. A very small percentage i'd imagine. From the people I know they're more like likely to grow into it, get more advice, up the training (quality and quantity), address diet, recovery, etc. At this stage I think the coach is considered not day 1. Even though you might look back and say "Jesus if had a coach from the start i'd be much further along".

peter kern

Good. At the same time most runner look all but not like running .... You know what I mean . personally I don't quite understand while people are. happy to get swim coaching ( I guess it's everybody is doing it . And when it comes to running they don't seem tocare when you can improve e run technique so much faster .

Oryx wrote: »

It probably takes time for people to realise they want to take triathlon seriously and invest funds in coaching. It starts for most as a pastime, not something that requires a coach. At most they probably get swim coaching because that's a technical skill, the other disciplines you'll improve just by getting out and doing them, initially.

zico10

peter kern wrote: »

Good. At the same time most runner look all but not like running .... You know what I mean . personally I don't quite understand while people are. happy to get swim coaching ( I guess it's everybody is doing it . And when it comes to running they don't seem tocare when you can improve e run technique so much faster .

I'm not sure that I do.

There's no doubt swimming is far more technical than running. You'll lose far more time swimming poorly than you will running poorly. There are far more options out there for swim coaching because of this. I've no statistics to back it up, but I'm pretty sure there are far more running programmes available in books and online than there are swimming for the same reason. Swimming needs to be hands on, running doesn't. Anyone will improve their running or biking by just getting out there and putting in the miles, the same is not true of swimming. I spent two years in Thailand swimming without any coaching and I'd say I went backwards. Both my running and biking improved while I was over there. Nobody has been able to create a market for run training, or biking, a la Total Immersion, Swim Smooth, Swim for Tri, etc. because those two sports are comparatively straightforward. If you can convince people of the need for hands on run and cycle coaching, then good luck to you. You'll have a much harder job monitoring people than you do in the confines of a 25m pool though.

Lastly if improving one's running technique is so easy, then how come Paula Radcliffe didn't change hers?

tunney

zico10 wrote: »

I'm not sure that I do.

There's no doubt swimming is far more technical than running. You'll lose far more time swimming poorly than you will running poorly. There are far more options out there for swim coaching because of this. I've no statistics to back it up, but I'm pretty sure there are far more running programmes available in books and online than there are swimming for the same reason. Swimming needs to be hands on, running doesn't. Anyone will improve their running or biking by just getting out there and putting in the miles, the same is not true of swimming. I spent two years in Thailand swimming without any coaching and I'd say I went backwards. Both my running and biking improved while I was over there. Nobody has been able to create a market for run training, or biking, a la Total Immersion, Swim Smooth, Swim for Tri, etc. because those two sports are comparatively straightforward. If you can convince people of the need for hands on run and cycle coaching, then good luck to you. You'll have a much harder job monitoring people than you do in the confines of a 25m pool though.

Lastly if improving one's running technique is so easy, then how come Paula Radcliffe didn't change hers?

Run technique is huge and massively underlooked.

I worked hard on my run technique for years. I've had both my own coach and a run specialist look at it and work on it. I'm actually back in for the first time in years with the run specialist on the 23rd of December to see what damage my years of undertraining and lack of conditioning have done to form. Next I run fast

Oryx

There is a market for run coaching. Catherina McKeirnan is making a nice living teching chi running. Dedicated runners do get instruction on technique from their club coaches in some clubs. But for triathlon, it does tend to be neglected. You have so much other stuff to do, and pay for, that to pay for something you've been doing since the age of three seems extravagant. As with hiring your coach, you only realise that you need run coaching when you plateau and wonder why.

peter kern

you have the basics right and bellow the waist you are pretty decent as you have a very good turnover upwards the waist you look more like a gorilla running specially when you had your beard '-)

anyway in many points you are right but please in this thread try also to think about other people who spend about 2 minutes on the ground before taking the next step wabble with their hipps like crazy

if its all about personal stuff i had never a swim coach and i had no problem to learn to swim so you see for different people different things are right

you are of course right its is easier to become a good runner but still loads can be gained from technique .

zico10 wrote: »

I'm not sure that I do.

There's no doubt swimming is far more technical than running. You'll lose far more time swimming poorly than you will running poorly. There are far more options out there for swim coaching because of this. I've no statistics to back it up, but I'm pretty sure there are far more running programmes available in books and online than there are swimming for the same reason. Swimming needs to be hands on, running doesn't. Anyone will improve their running or biking by just getting out there and putting in the miles, the same is not true of swimming. I spent two years in Thailand swimming without any coaching and I'd say I went backwards. Both my running and biking improved while I was over there. Nobody has been able to create a market for run training, or biking, a la Total Immersion, Swim Smooth, Swim for Tri, etc. because those two sports are comparatively straightforward. If you can convince people of the need for hands on run and cycle coaching, then good luck to you. You'll have a much harder job monitoring people than you do in the confines of a 25m pool though.

Lastly if improving one's running technique is so easy, then how come Paula Radcliffe didn't change hers?

peter kern

Oryx wrote: »

There is a market for run coaching. Catherina McKeirnan is making a nice living teching chi running. Dedicated runners do get instruction on technique from their club coaches in some clubs. But for triathlon, it does tend to be neglected. You have so much other stuff to do, and pay for, that to pay for something you've been doing since the age of three seems extravagant. As with hiring your coach, you only realise that you need run coaching when you plateau and wonder why.

or if you wanted to improve faster
but anyway i really would like us to get the first step finished and discuss whats out there and what are the pros and cons ( and as much as possible besides ones personal view try to look aorund what can work for other people at different stages of thei triathlon participation.

zico write donw why you felt the book was helping you and for whom does is work and for whom not etc

tunney

"And the LORD spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out."

peter kern

zico10 wrote: »

I'm not sure that I do.

There's no doubt swimming is far more technical than running. You'll lose far more time swimming poorly than you will running poorly. There are far more options out there for swim coaching because of this. I've no statistics to back it up, but I'm pretty sure there are far more running programmes available in books and online than there are swimming for the same reason. Swimming needs to be hands on, running doesn't. Anyone will improve their running or biking by just getting out there and putting in the miles, the same is not true of swimming. I spent two years in Thailand swimming without any coaching and I'd say I went backwards. Both my running and biking improved while I was over there. Nobody has been able to create a market for run training, or biking, a la Total Immersion, Swim Smooth, Swim for Tri, etc. because those two sports are comparatively straightforward. If you can convince people of the need for hands on run and cycle coaching, then good luck to you. You'll have a much harder job monitoring people than you do in the confines of a 25m pool though.

Lastly if improving one's running technique is so easy, then how come Paula Radcliffe didn't change hers?

zico i have a serious question why did you become a teacher when you dont really sem to beleive in teaching ?

sconhome

Snip.....childish