What is coaching ?

gilleek2

zico10 wrote: »

A lot of people I know have a great relationship with their couch. I can't see how it could be two way though.

Well I guess the couch has to trust that you're not gonna come back from your holidays 2 stone heavier and buckle its springs. Or that your not gonna liberally sprinkle crumbs down its sides. Couches hate that that.

SucCes09

What about the role of the coach in terms of the other aspects? Mental side of training (and racing), stretching, strenght work, etc? I assume a good coach would provide guidance on all of these areas also?

pgibbo

SucCes09 wrote: »

What about the role of the coach in terms of the other aspects? Mental side of training (and racing), stretching, strenght work, etc? I assume a good coach would provide guidance on all of these areas also?

It would depend on the coach and the individual. Not every coach believes there is a place for stretching in triathlon given the limited range of motion required. Some coaches are big advocates of strength and conditioning via the gym whereas others prefer to do sport specific - band, buoy and paddles, big gear work or hill running as examples. This is why it's important to know what you want and what a coach offers. I'd say that as the coach gets to know an athlete they can determine what's required from a mental aspect. A good coach will know the athlete better than they know themselves.

tunney

From my perspective of when I was working with a coach.
Started in 2005/2006 stopped at the end of 2011.
Still in contact with him but uncoachable at the minute.

They should know you are sick before you do
They should know your family set up, kids and spouse.
They should know how you think and react to good and bad things.
They should know you better than you know yourself in alot of respects.

They should be so close a part of you life that you invite them to your wedding, your kids parties, everything.

My mother in law used to refer to my Coach as "Santa Claus", because I would get excited to talk to him, email him, and his visits to stay with me had me like a kid at Christmas.

They should learn and understand your workload, how it changes, how your home life is and how that impacts things. They should know everything about you.

Then they can have a true picture of what training you can actually do. Both in the short term (<1 year) and to promote longevity in the sport to get the best out of you.

If they don't have the social skills, emotional intelligence, and insight to be able to tell whats up with you then they are not going to be able to effectively guide your training - after all we are fathers, mothers, partners, employees first, athletes second.

kal7

I come at coaching from slightly different perspective. I prefer to encourage the group to be a good place to hang out so it is easy to attend and be consistent. Then work together to push each other onward and upwards.

Most athletes don't feel that the are at a level that requires a coach, I think this is wrong because it is much easier to help a beginner to improve. Good or experienced athletes think they have already tried all the ideas you want to introduce.

Those that believe they do need a coach can't afford high level coaching and most coaches will find it difficult to give over enough time to give each athlete a full programme to address all the parameters that need attention.

I would love to work like a Osteopath colleague of mine in London he sees one client per week over 4 and 1/2 days, he lives along side them, goes to their gym, run sessions etc. He then can teach how to shop eat/cook, sleep and rest, train and recover, assess and guide techniques.
Problem is costs 1500 euro for week, he sees 15% olympic level athletes, 10% very rich people and the rest are those in chronic pain.

With athletes educating themselves now via internet I go for encouraging pier 2 pier learning and discussion. I look over the training plan of athlete rather than prescribing it, looking for overtraining and preference for favourite activities. Pick one key technique point to work on, especially as they already have a swim and bike run coached sessions in our club.

RayCun

kal7 wrote: »

pier 2 pier learning and discussion

swim coach?

peter kern

pgibbo wrote: »

It would depend on the coach and the individual. Not every coach believes there is a place for stretching in triathlon given the limited range of motion required. Some coaches are big advocates of strength and conditioning via the gym whereas others prefer to do sport specific - band, buoy and paddles, big gear work or hill running as examples. This is why it's important to know what you want and what a coach offers. I'd say that as the coach gets to know an athlete they can determine what's required from a mental aspect. A good coach will know the athlete better than they know themselves.

brill answer
i think at this stage you also have to ask how much can you afford to pay for all this .

peter kern

SucCes09 wrote: »

What about the role of the coach in terms of the other aspects? Mental side of training (and racing), stretching, strenght work, etc? I assume a good coach would provide guidance on all of these areas also?

this is a very very interesting question me thinks
and you could have 25 ways of thinking a lot of stuff is overrated or over marketed in triathlon
as the same time by sending one of my clients to hot yoga I we got 10 min improvement in a half marathon .... no that ahtelte could not touch the knee with their hand ......
this is something we forget with the strenght and stretch discussin there a certain level of strength and flex is needed at the same time any more and for non pros it takes away from swim bike and run
its a very intersting subject
my opinion on this is its also very important to make atheltes aware to use what they have ( i have one athlete at swim session that is a pilates instructor and physio ( and good in both) could not engage the core when athletes started swimming with us ......


the mental side is a total issue fear is an atheltes biggest enemy. and of course this is why sutton has such a track record he can solve this better than any triathlon coach .
the problem is its not a nice gadged one can buy so its not sexy

Dory Dory

peter kern wrote: »

the mental side is a total issue fear is an atheltes biggest enemy. and of course this is why sutton has such a track record he can solve this better than any triathlon coach .
the problem is its not a nice gadged one can buy so its not sexy

Fear? Tell me....what are they afraid of?

peter kern

Dory Dory wrote: »

Fear? Tell me....what are they afraid of?

http://www.active.com/health/articles/how-to-conquer-fear-of-failure
some simple stuff
in a nutshell
athletes like actors ( its actually amzing to see how many actors have thereapists) are often fragile or complex but driven people that want and need admiratrion from other people,
and often by overthinking or sefldoubt paralyse themself .
also loads of people get worried this guy does this he bought this i need this ,is what i do the right thing.

there is nothing better than watching people at an tri expo before an ironman and how it messes with so many peoples head. ( really how stupid is it to buy a new wetsuit 2 days before a race...
how many people switched from 404 to disc a week before the race were close to a nervous breakdown as they wear worried so much aobut the right choice.

some people go totally crazy in hotel they see one guy swimming they feel they have to swim than they see another go going for a bike ride they feel they have to go for a bike abd they overthink everything , its part of being good but also often the biggest performace limiter .

today i had to bet 50 euro with one of me athletes is going too run a certain time next weekend , he just dosnt want to believe me he is cabable of this time .
all the numbers are there ( i know how much faster he is than myslef and i know that even i can run that time, yes it will be a pb for him, but by the end of march he will have broken that 5 k pb by more than a minute )
so he is holding himself back coming up with irrational excuses i have not done speed work etc etc
iam not even going to taper him so sure iam to win my 50 euro. he has it in him but if he dosnt believe it .... you can call it what you want but the underlying factor is fear of failure or lack in self belief ( i would see it as a failure if he dosnt go 20 sec faster than the time that will bring me 50 euro )

kal7

Oops!
Thanks Raycun, for pointing out my encouraging athletes to swim from pier to pier while having discussion. Knew sent that with out proof reading.

At least I didn't call any of my peers, a block wall in a harbour.

tunney

A man much wiser than me once said to me "Dave if you ask a surgeon for his opinion, you get a surgeons opinion".

What would be useful would be if non-coaches contributed what they want or expect from a coach and see where that goes. Rather than a description of services offered.

Oryx

What do I want from a coach? At first, I needed to hand over my recovery to someone more sensible than me; I knew in my rush to get back I would get it wrong. I had also spent two years on the edge of burnout, again, I was doing things wrong for me. A coach makes my decisions for me so I can stop second guessing what I am at. They add a level of control I was lacking and a new approach with a different emphasis. They see when i need to pull back when I don't. A coach makes me do the sessions I don't want to do, but need.

I want a person who will work with me, understand my limits, but push me harder than I am used to. Someone who shows they are paying attention so I can trust them. At the moment they have turned my training upside down and I'm still getting used to that.

RJM85

I got myself a coach after our son was born. Partly because I would have less time to train so would need to be smarter about it and partly because the improvements I had been seeing for the past 2ish years from just getting out the door and plugging away with no structure were starting to level off.

To a certain degree, what my coach does is prescriptive in that he gives me the sessions and I do them as best I can. I also run things past him the odd time. And he'll check in to see how I'm getting on / feeling etc. Almost all of our contact is by email and I've never met him but it works for me.

The main thing I've gained from it is I've learned (or am learning) how to approach /training/ as opposed to exercising.

I spoke to 2 coaches at the time - I didn't go with the other guy as I felt he would want me to fit to a very rigid structure as opposed to being practical about getting the best out of what I can actually do given various constraints. The idea that we're people first, then athletes (debatable) is something that I think is definitely needed at this level.

zico10

tunney wrote: »

From my perspective of when I was working with a coach.
Started in 2005/2006 stopped at the end of 2011.
Still in contact with him but uncoachable at the minute.

They should know you are sick before you do
They should know your family set up, kids and spouse.
They should know how you think and react to good and bad things.
They should know you better than you know yourself in alot of respects.

They should be so close a part of you life that you invite them to your wedding, your kids parties, everything.

My mother in law used to refer to my Coach as "Santa Claus", because I would get excited to talk to him, email him, and his visits to stay with me had me like a kid at Christmas.

They should learn and understand your workload, how it changes, how your home life is and how that impacts things. They should know everything about you.

Then they can have a true picture of what training you can actually do. Both in the short term (<1 year) and to promote longevity in the sport to get the best out of you.

If they don't have the social skills, emotional intelligence, and insight to be able to tell whats up with you then they are not going to be able to effectively guide your training - after all we are fathers, mothers, partners, employees first, athletes second.

That's some level of service and I'm assuming you're not a millionaire. How many ordinary age group athletes could a coach provide that level of service to and still make a reasonable living out of it? Sure poor Peter has to make €50 bets every chance he gets to supplement his income. What's the point at which a coach has spread himself too thinly?

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

A man much wiser than me once said to me "Dave if you ask a surgeon for his opinion, you get a surgeons opinion".

What would be useful would be if non-coaches contributed what they want or expect from a coach and see where that goes. Rather than a description of services offered.

"Dave if you ask a surgeon for his opinion, you get a surgeons opinion".
which is basically saying each industry tries to push its products useful or not
or is very opiniotaded how they work. to which i would like to add in most companies the marketing and sales people earn more than the engineers )
if you were to aske a real good surgon than you should get a balanced view ( and of course those people are rare)


At least 2 people in this thread a teacher and athelte and many other in mangment and are atheltes .so they can see from both sides. and i am also deciding what i want from a coach and what i need.
unfortunately the thread has long gone away from what it was intended
which was basically to discuss the advantage and disatvantage of a road bike time trial bike and hybrid bike in the context of coaching .

to which one person said is their really a difference, and another person said its oversimplifying it to serperate it in a few main categories main categories.


i think what you suggest is a different thread called what do you want form a ( coach ,a book or an online programm. or in deed why would one need a coach.
i do not think it depends on the level in the sport it dpends on your character your need and priorities and there is many people out there that do not need a coach and are 50 times better of in a tri club .

and then maybe anohter thread what style of coaching they want the guru the dictator the listener the analyticer the well done sayer etc etc
( and of course there is nothing black in white ,as in real live they all mix togheter
sometimes and one treats different atheltes or employees at work differetly. but still manager coaches like polars and garmins have tendencies on what they focus on.

sconhome

From the title of the thread and

i thought it might not be wrong to discuss coaching and it's differences

I assumed that this was a discussion about what people think coaching is about and an opportunity for those here who offer coachings services to find out what people expect in a coaching service.

Seems not to be the case

RJM85

AKW wrote: »

From the title of the thread and



I assumed that this was a discussion about what people think coaching is about and an opportunity for those here who offer coachings services to find out what people expect in a coaching service.

Seems not to be the case

Sure we can start a thread titled 'what's the difference between road, tri and hybrid bikes for triathlon' and discuss coaching in that.

Dory Dory

AKW wrote: »

From the title of the thread and



I assumed that this was a discussion about what people think coaching is about and an opportunity for those here who offer coachings services to find out what people expect in a coaching service.

Seems not to be the case

I'm with you. Unless Peter minds, I say we keep this going...discussing both perspectives - athlete's and coach's.

Dory Dory

Dory Dory wrote: »

I'm with you. Unless Peter minds, I say we keep this going...discussing both perspectives - athlete's and coach's.

Hmmm....I guess we're going to see just how "flexible" Peter is.

peter kern

AKW wrote: »

From the title of the thread and



I assumed that this was a discussion about what people think coaching is about and an opportunity for those here who offer coachings services to find out what people expect in a coaching service.

Seems not to be the case

but befroe one goes into the personal level it might be good to discuss the general pros and cons of book to hands on coaching .not looking to much on what the individual needs but what they do. rather than putting everythingin one post
lets just say
the very basic
ie books are cheap .
online progame are good for people that have time restrictions
having contact with a coach good for people that want to know whay they are doing something
hands on coaching to improve trechnique



I assume most people that come to your shop dont even know spike shoes exist ( and very few would have used them ) and when they see one would not know when and what to use them for and would be curious

when they ask I guess you would not tell this person first
they are fantastcic shoes becasue I like the colour and I work really well with the supplier becasue they dont sell to many shoes online dont put special offeres on their websites to killl the small brick and mortar store. they dont forc me to do xy and z etc

i guess you would first tell them the purpose using them . and the pros and cons off a trail shoe a road shoe vs spikes

and then once you talked aobut the pros and cons of them then you would go on to explain there is track and cross country shoes but only if they did not already no thanks i think i dodnt want spikes.

and then you would go more into details.
what the individual needs ie a new balance spike vs an addidas etc
and then you would give them to try some
and after that you discuss colours.
or not ?

I would personally like to see it a bit more in a way like that . to start from broad and then get more detailed later .But of course thats me at the same time there is enough space to open up another thread for people that want to discuss it differently.
I mean i believe there is a few teacher, live coaches managers etc that would have interesting insights on the broader subject before we go into details and personal expereinces .

cheers

sconhome

I don't want to derail this thread on coaching, because it is an informative thread, with talk about footwear.

peter kern

Dory Dory wrote: »

Hmmm....I guess we're going to see just how "flexible" Peter is.

with some things very flexible with others not very flexible at all,but at least there is enough self awarness to see it, and I am honest enough to admit it.

at the same time it will still be interesting to read it and be the listener.

Oryx

To be honest Peter, youve confused the hell out of me. Assigning labels to something that to me appears far more fluid and overlapping than you describe. One coach can adapt to different clients, no?

And the shoe analogy. What do you mean?

peter kern

AKW wrote: »

I don't want to derail this thread on coaching, because it is an informative thread, with talk about footwear.

with respect but sometimes it is helpful to say nothing when one has nothing constructive to say .
but it made me laugh ;-)

mossym

Oryx wrote: »

To be honest Peter, you've confused the hell out of me.

same here. i have no idea what this is about any more

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

with respect but sometimes it is helpful to say nothing when one has nothing constructive to say .
but it made me laugh ;-)

Mods can we have this thread deleted then please.

peter kern

Oryx wrote: »

To be honest Peter, youve confused the hell out of me. Assigning labels to something that to me appears far more fluid and overlapping than you describe. One coach can adapt to different clients, no?

And the shoe analogy. What do you mean?

ok what iam trying to say is there is the term coaching ( like there is the shoes)
but then there is sub categoreis
ie online coaching a book, hands on coaching ( like there is road runners and trail shoes and spikes )
so when you look into coaching or buying a shoe you first have to ask what do you want and to know that you need to know whats out there .

for most this might be clear at the same time i dodnt think so. and there might be people that dont know enough aobut it and might be afraid to post.
( ie some people think they are not good enough for coaching so if they think that i guess they would not know what types of coaching is available to even make a decsion if its for them or not .at the same time there is people who are told you need a coach that dont need a coach and would be way better of in tri club . and iam sure there is 60 % of runners that would never have heared aobut a spikes and maybe 5% have used them )
so it would be good that those people that don thave the basics learn the basics first ie whats out there ( knowledge is power )

if i run all the time on tarmac( i can rule a spike out )
if i dodn want to see a coach i can rule hands on coaching in a suqad out.
if i dodnt know that those options even exist or how it works i cant make an informed decsion what i need )


so i think while its flows togheter, at the begining you need to seprate it so beginner can understand it first
and then you bring it togheter as it goes on and go more into details.

anyway sorry to confuse you .

Dory Dory

Peter, to help us understand exactly what you are trying to glean from this thread, maybe toss out specific (simple) questions and then we can discuss. ??

MojoMaker

I understood Peter's shoe analogy, and I'm following his line of thought here. Coaching isn't for everyone, for some an online resource or a good reference book is a really good fit.

For those that might be suited to coaching there are some very different coaching methodologies that will have greater or lesser net benefits to both parties.

Making the decision to offer coaching or to be coached is a big deal, should not taken lightly, and only after appropriate due diligence on both sides.