What is coaching ?

peter kern

Sounds a bit stupid me asking this. But having just read the post about the poster looking for a coach...

I said to myself you are not looking for a coach you are looking for what Chris jones would call a prescriptor .

We are always talking about road bike mountain bike and tt bike
But when it comes to coaching we never distinguish different types ( or I miss it)

prescription , coaching , and hands on coaching ,mentoring ,advising.



Like with bikes non of them terms is really better as they all serve a different purpose , but we do distinguish them so why do we do not do the same with coaching ?
The poster in the other thread has defined it well that he looks for a prescribtion but most people don't.

Btw oryx thanks for including me in your list but I am not a good prescriber so I would not be a good fit for the poster in the other thread.

Anyway i thought it might not be wrong to discuss coaching and it's differences rather then the thousand and first. discussion polar vs garmin pros and cons.
And I would be very interested how people think about this

Oryx

Are there really such strict gradations between how you approach this? By prescriptive, do you mean just assigning a schedule with no other input? How does this differ from the more hands on types (mentor, advisor)? I would have thought the personality of both the coach and the athlete come into play. Some need a lot of hand holding, others dont. Cant one coach adapt his work to suit the client?

pgibbo

Persoanlly I wouldn't regard it as coaching unless there's a good feedback loop and the coach is educating the person as to why they are training in a certain way. I also think it's critical that it's not just a one size fits all model. We all have different needs, histories and tolerances for load.

I like your prescription definition Peter. :cool:

I also think it's very interesting that a lot of people think they aren't good enough for a coach. The reality is that when there are 3 sports involved outside oversight is very important in striking a balance between the 3 sports, the intensity across them and balancing them with your available time.

peter kern

Hm we distinguish between dura ace ultegra 105 etc ... So why not at least a bit of distinction in coaching ?

Oryx wrote: »

Are there really such strict gradations between how you approach this? By prescriptive, do you mean just assigning a schedule with no other input? How does this differ from the more hands on types (mentor, advisor)? I would have thought the personality of both the coach and the athlete come into play. Some need a lot of hand holding, others dont. Cant one coach adapt his work to suit the client?

peter kern

By the way I did put in commas between hands on coaching , mentor , advisor as they are also different

peter kern wrote: »

Hm we distinguish between dura ace ultegra 105 etc ... So why not at least a bit of distinction in coaching ?

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

Hm we distinguish between dura ace ultegra 105 etc ... So why not at least a bit of distinction in coaching ?

Because its easy to quantify what works and what doesn't in groupsets.

One mans "best coach ever" is another man's "total díckhead".
Personality comes into coaching, it doesn't components.

I loved working my coach for years and would work with him again in a heart beat, so did Carbo. Tango didn't like working with him as much.

At best one could come up with categories and similar but hard to pigeon hole people.

Oryx

I also think there has to be a lot of overlap between the definintions given above.

peter kern

Yes there is an emotional aspect but we have this with campagnolo and shimano etc to some extend to... Or let's use I phone vs samsung

tunney wrote: »

Because its easy to quantify what works and what doesn't in groupsets.

One mans "best coach ever" is another man's "total díckhead".
Personality comes into coaching, it doesn't components.

I loved working my coach for years and would work with him again in a heart beat, so did Carbo. Tango didn't like working with him as much.

At best one could come up with categories and similar but hard to pigeon hole people.

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

One mans "best coach ever" is another man's "total díckhead".

Can substitute 'watch' or 'runners' in there too

peter kern

Oryx wrote: »

I also think there has to be a lot of overlap between the definintions given above.

Yes I do agree i can do a triathlon on a mountain bike a road bike or even on a Dublin bike
They all get me from a too b

Oryx

Peter, how do you decide who you do (or don't) coach?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

For me coaching is more than just setting programmes or sessions. For me its about the development of the person, understanding them and knowing what makes them tick to get the most out of them.
In order for it to work there needs to be total trust given to the coach with the coachee knowing full well that there is good and solid reasoning behind what they are telling them.

As already mentioned if the relationship between coach and coachee is not there you can be Brett Sutton for all i care it will simply not work. People need to think long and hard about what they want from a coach as its not for everyone. The one thing i will say if you are not committed and trust the process then you are wasting your own time and not making best use of the coaches.

I will never do a "hard sell" on someone for coaching, if they are not a fit or i do not see a relationship that will work it gets called very early on. Coach and coachee relationship is a bit like courtship, you will know if its a right fit early on.

mossym

a year ago i was one of the "not good enough to need a coach". if that was the requirement i still don't.

what i had was hunger and desire, and a strong interest. a prescriptive coach would have killed that in the year, i'd have had a plan that burnt me out as i'd have done everything and enjoyed nothing.

at the same time i'm a sponge for reading and knowledge, so likely to go off on every fad mentioned if i thought it looked good. so an advisor wasn't going to work.

i needed a blend of the two. someone to listen to my thoughts, take what worked, but keep me within reasonable limits that delivered as well.

looking at some of the other guys on here i know are coached, none are the same, all have different needs in a coach. trying to put them into silos of presciptive, advisor, mentor over simplifies it if you ask me. a good coach can blend as needed, and even change the mix when needed.


that's coaching.

rodneyr1981

mossym wrote: »

a year ago i was one of the "not good enough to need a coach". if that was the requirement i still don't.

what i had was hunger and desire, and a strong interest. a prescriptive coach would have killed that in the year, i'd have had a plan that burnt me out as i'd have done everything and enjoyed nothing.

at the same time i'm a sponge for reading and knowledge, so likely to go off on every fad mentioned if i thought it looked good. so an advisor wasn't going to work.

i needed a blend of the two. someone to listen to my thoughts, take what worked, but keep me within reasonable limits that delivered as well.

looking at some of the other guys on here i know are coached, none are the same, all have different needs in a coach. trying to put them into silos of presciptive, advisor, mentor over simplifies it if you ask me. a good coach can blend as needed, and even change the mix when needed.


that's coaching.

Hi mossym,
Did u see much performance improvements? Also how did u find a coach that suited your requirements? Word of mouth etc?
I'd be interested in going down this route as I feel I've left some of my performances on my training days and not race day. Cheers

peter kern

mossym wrote: »

a year ago i was one of the "not good enough to need a coach". if that was the requirement i still don't.

what i had was hunger and desire, and a strong interest. a prescriptive coach would have killed that in the year, i'd have had a plan that burnt me out as i'd have done everything and enjoyed nothing.

at the same time i'm a sponge for reading and knowledge, so likely to go off on every fad mentioned if i thought it looked good. so an advisor wasn't going to work.

i needed a blend of the two. someone to listen to my thoughts, take what worked, but keep me within reasonable limits that delivered as well.

looking at some of the other guys on here i know are coached, none are the same, all have different needs in a coach. trying to put them into silos of presciptive, advisor, mentor over simplifies it if you ask me. a good coach can blend as needed, and even change the mix when needed.


that's coaching.

the underlined is coaching
but as you say its not prescribtion and not advisor its a different way of coaching.
and yes coaching relaionships usally flow they can start with hands on coaching move to coaching and then adviser role.
and to be honest this is what one would expect from coaching that there is a progressions .
kind of the way pigbo wrote it
Persoanlly I wouldn't regard it as coaching unless there's a good feedback loop and the coach is educating the person as to why they are training in a certain way. I also think it's critical that it's not just a one size fits all model. We all have different needs, histories and tolerances for load.

ps i like to add and for some people prescrition is the best way but in my mind its the least efficent way of coaching ( bit like a dublin bike is not the best to do a triathlon) and like in triathlon you do not find an athelte that is really good in erverything they all have pros and cons so not every coach fits everybody ( even if they are world class coaches )

Dory Dory

peter kern wrote: »

kind of the way pigbo wrote it

This made me laugh.

Best. Typo. Ever.

Dory Dory

"What is coaching?"

Coaching is being both a communicator and a listener. It's teaching while learning. It's being flexible and keeping things in perspective. It's extracting the best out of each athlete through positive means, thus getting the athlete to believe in him- or herself. It's tailoring the plan to fit the needs of the individual athlete. It's understanding the athlete's needs and goals. It's being a friend. It's being interested. It's recognizing the signs when things may not be going well, and asking the right questions. It's being there for the big moments. It's cheering the loudest, even if it's under your breath. And it's having the passion and unselfish desire to provide another individual with the tools to succeed.

That, to me, is coaching.

peter kern

Dory Dory wrote: »

"What is coaching?"

Coaching is being both a communicator and a listener. It's teaching while learning. It's being flexible and keeping things in perspective. It's extracting the best out of each athlete through positive means, thus getting the athlete to believe in him- or herself. It's tailoring the plan to fit the needs of the individual athlete. It's understanding the athlete's needs and goals. It's being a friend. It's being interested. It's recognizing the signs when things may not be going well, and asking the right questions. It's being there for the big moments. It's cheering the loudest, even if it's under your breath. And it's having the passion and unselfish desire to provide another individual with the tools to succeed.

That, to me, is coaching.

nice one ! but that sounds almost like ones husband or wife ;-)
with some you can be a friend with some its important to keep distance.with some you have to be friendly with some harsh .

peter kern

Dory Dory wrote: »

This made me laugh.

Best. Typo. Ever.

ups sorry
at least i have a new scrabble word ....

peter kern

"I want to be fast, if I give someone money I can get fast without doing anything!"

ps that was what a bordie wrote me yesterday ( you are welcoe to claim it )
but this is certainly what some athletes would like .

zico10

I'm sure you remember me asking you to coach me last summer. I get the impression this isn't how you operate, but at the time what I expected was to be prescribed a week's training at a time. But I wouldn't consider a 'prescriptor' a coach. You could just as easily buy a book for a fraction of the cost and you'd get the same thing. If this is all it took to be a coach, then Pete Pfitzinger and Scott Douglas were my coaches at the start of the year, which obviously wasn't the case.

As well as prescribing training, I'd expect a coach to study the training being done, seek from and give feedback to the athlete, and make adjustments to the training as the weeks went by.

Also I think the coach needs to be a lot more flexible than the athlete. I'm not saying you do, but there's no point telling someone to train by heart rate, power, metronomes if the athlete doesn't want to, or is too stubborn to listen. I think the coach needs to be able to find a way around this. That is what they are being paid for after all.

I would also consider it important that the coach sees his athlete train and is hands on for some of the weekly sessions. I know someone who was very happy with an online coach he worked with this year. They had phone contact, but I don't think they ever actually met. I don't understand how someone could go with this and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work for me. I'd find it hard to trust my training to someone I never saw, or who never saw me.

I don't have a specific number in mind when I say this, but I'd also like any coach I worked with not to have too many athletes on their hands. I wouldn't expect the coach to coach just me and me alone, but I think there has to a number when it becomes impossible to give everybody equal attention. This would be another reason I'd be suspicious of online coaching, there'd be no way of knowing exactly how many people they'd be working with.

Just for the record, I respected you for telling me honestly you weren't motivated enough to take me on during the summer, rather than taking my money and not giving it 100%. You know me better than any other coach in Ireland, this is the reason I asked you, and I didn't seek out anybody else after you jilted me. I think I trained well on my own and despite my cock up, I feel I raced well in Mallorca, but I do wonder would I have been a few minutes quicker had I worked with you.

No need to name names, but what attributes would make your ideal athlete to coach?

Dory Dory

And I have a question for Peter -
Since you are back competing with a serious goal of Kona in mind, could you coach another athlete in your gender and age group who is also vying for the same slot, especially if you two will be in the same qualifying race?

sconhome

Dory Dory wrote: »

And I have a question for Peter -
Since you are back competing with a serious goal of Kona in mind, could you coach another athlete in your gender and age group who is also vying for the same slot, especially if you two will be in the same qualifying race?

Great question!!

peter kern

I never started to coach you as In your case you did not take on any feed back so why would you want a coach if you don't take on the feedback.
You had your ideas and it been pointed out that when I say left you say right I asked you not to do a session you did it . I was once uncoachable and it's not that your training is wrong. Also note you have never been charged. Penny for the time I spend with you trying to find out if it could work.

Does a coach to have to be more flexible than an athlete?
I don't know the answer to this the truth might be the middle
As it needs to 2 work . At the end of the day a coach gets paid for results and anything less than hawii quali for you would not be a result.
You contacted me 3 moth before the goal race so I this case I do not have a time to change aspects you can work on . I have followed your block knew how you trained before you contacted me . And if you are not willing to take my feedback than it is better coaching to let one do the want to do as arguing over stuff would not make you a better athlete for you IM I fact it would have likely slowed you down. In the long term I think it's your loss but again if one is not willing to take on advice it's better not using a coach until one is ready.

zico10 wrote: »

I'm sure you remember me asking you to coach me last summer. I get the impression this isn't how you operate, but at the time what I expected was to be prescribed a week's training at a time. But I wouldn't consider a 'prescriptor' a coach. You could just as easily buy a book for a fraction of the cost and you'd get the same thing. If this is all it took to be a coach, then Pete Pfitzinger and Scott Douglas were my coaches at the start of the year, which obviously wasn't the case.

As well as prescribing training, I'd expect a coach to study the training being done, seek from and give feedback to the athlete, and make adjustments to the training as the weeks went by.

Also I think the coach needs to be a lot more flexible than the athlete. I'm not saying you do, but there's no point telling someone to train by heart rate, power, metronomes if the athlete doesn't want to, or is too stubborn to listen. I think the coach needs to be able to find a way around this. That is what they are being paid for after all.

I would also consider it important that the coach sees his athlete train and is hands on for some of the weekly sessions. I know someone who was very happy with an online coach he worked with this year. They had phone contact, but I don't think they ever actually met. I don't understand how someone could go with this and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work for me. I'd find it hard to trust my training to someone I never saw, or who never saw me.

I don't have a specific number in mind when I say this, but I'd also like any coach I worked with not to have too many athletes on their hands. I wouldn't expect the coach to coach just me and me alone, but I think there has to a number when it becomes impossible to give everybody equal attention. This would be another reason I'd be suspicious of online coaching, there'd be no way of knowing exactly how many people they'd be working with.

Just for the record, I respected you for telling me honestly you weren't motivated enough to take me on during the summer, rather than taking my money and not giving it 100%. You know me better than any other coach in Ireland, this is the reason I asked you, and I didn't seek out anybody else after you jilted me. I think I trained well on my own and despite my cock up, I feel I raced well in Mallorca, but I do wonder would I have been a few minutes quicker had I worked with you.

No need to name names, but what attributes would make your ideal athlete to coach?

peter kern

It's not really part of this thread but my ideal athlete I see at least 4 times a week. And I have three athletes at moment I often see for 9 sessions a week at least 3 sessions with them are in a environment with less than 5 people . ( right now we are doing loads do technique work later on that will change a bit and be less but it will still be 5 sessions I would want to see them)That is what my ideal athlete would be . For many that is not a real world scenario but they have to make an effort .
Also one does not want to have an athlete that always says yes without thinking but one should not have to argue all the time as then Iam sure there is better compatible people . The most important is a drive to want to improve and if they have that they can be as slow as they want and I would prefer them to somebody that says no all the time and is really good . They also need to understand that Rome wasn't built in one day and it's a long process and in an ideal way they give something positive to the group by being helpful or encouraging to other people and make trainig a bit of fun while working hard. If one can point that out Zico while you work very hard you are not helping the people around you as you only think about yourself ( which is very important too but there is time to also give energy to other people) . You obviously have the work ethic which makes you brilliant to have around a session but being a bit positive at sessions also helps other people. And I do think it's an important part at group training
To have an environment that works for most people. As it's not always about one person but a group .


.

peter kern wrote: »

I never started to coach you as In your case you did not take on any feed back so why would you want a coach if you don't take on the feedback.
You had your ideas and it been pointed out that when I say left you say right I asked you not to do a session you did it . I was once uncoachable and it's not that your training is wrong. Also note you have never been charged. Penny for the time I spend with you trying to find out if it could work.

Does a coach to have to be more flexible than an athlete?
I don't know the answer to this the truth might be the middle
As it needs to 2 work . At the end of the day a coach gets paid for results and anything less than hawii quali for you would not be a result.
You contacted me 3 moth before the goal race so I this case I do not have a time to change aspects you can work on . I have followed your block knew how you trained before you contacted me . And if you are not willing to take my feedback than it is better coaching to let one do the want to do as arguing over stuff would not make you a better athlete for you IM I fact it would have likely slowed you down. In the long term I think it's your loss but again if one is not willing to take on advice it's better not using a coach until one is ready.

peter kern

It's obviously something one has to consider where ones priorities are . And as you see most of the times my training partner are not my clients as my coaching and my training is two seperate aspects( this is why I look for training partner during the day Iwould be very happy to take 4th place in kona behind 3 of my athletes . I fact I would me much happier to be beaten by a client .When I hear Craig alexandr saying. I still want to beat my client than we know that this coach is sttill an athlete first in first place and it's not bad but not the way I would see it. I would be delighted if somebody beats me and it is actually the best thing when it happens because in a way you see that their and your work are producing the desired results. I am a decent triathlete but it's my goal to produce athletes that are at an higher level and let's face it the level of triathlon in Ireland is still quite low and it would be bad for any athlete or coach to be happy to be a big fish in a small pont . I am for instance very happy that Kevin Thornton is opening the eyes of some people that were happy to be big in a small pont . Kevin is changing that perception and his coach is doing a very good job there. Ireland needs more people that challenge themselves and get out of their comfort zone and this should be the goal.

AKW wrote: »

Great question!![/qu

speedyj

This is IMO the best thread ever in this forum, thanks! Plenty to think about for both athletes and coaches.

zico10

I don't want to make this thread about me, but I did and do listen to you Peter. I can see why you'd get the impression I didn't, but I did.

I probably do only think about myself, but I think most driven triathletes do. That's the nature of individual sport. If somebody asks me for advice, I'll happily advise them, but if I'm going to a session to be coached I don't feel it's my place.

I should also add a coach needs to be able to convince an athlete that their methods are best. One's reputation alone might be enough to do this, but coaches have to earn reputations.

Tom__JNR

Great thread!

It is very complex issue to have good / two-way relationship with your couch however you should trust him.

Easier for me, same couch since day one

P.S. I am helping / mentoring / sharing my training my friend to get back in proper shape and I would be over the moon if he beat me!

zico10

Tom__JNR wrote: »

It is very complex issue to have good / two-way relationship with your couch however you should trust him.

Easier for me, same couch since day one

A lot of people I know have a great relationship with their couch. I can't see how it could be two way though.

MojoMaker

Oh I dunno, a couch is only as good as the potato.

gilleek2

zico10 wrote: »

A lot of people I know have a great relationship with their couch. I can't see how it could be two way though.

Well I guess the couch has to trust that you're not gonna come back from your holidays 2 stone heavier and buckle its springs. Or that your not gonna liberally sprinkle crumbs down its sides. Couches hate that that.

SucCes09

What about the role of the coach in terms of the other aspects? Mental side of training (and racing), stretching, strenght work, etc? I assume a good coach would provide guidance on all of these areas also?

pgibbo

SucCes09 wrote: »

What about the role of the coach in terms of the other aspects? Mental side of training (and racing), stretching, strenght work, etc? I assume a good coach would provide guidance on all of these areas also?

It would depend on the coach and the individual. Not every coach believes there is a place for stretching in triathlon given the limited range of motion required. Some coaches are big advocates of strength and conditioning via the gym whereas others prefer to do sport specific - band, buoy and paddles, big gear work or hill running as examples. This is why it's important to know what you want and what a coach offers. I'd say that as the coach gets to know an athlete they can determine what's required from a mental aspect. A good coach will know the athlete better than they know themselves.

tunney

From my perspective of when I was working with a coach.
Started in 2005/2006 stopped at the end of 2011.
Still in contact with him but uncoachable at the minute.

They should know you are sick before you do
They should know your family set up, kids and spouse.
They should know how you think and react to good and bad things.
They should know you better than you know yourself in alot of respects.

They should be so close a part of you life that you invite them to your wedding, your kids parties, everything.

My mother in law used to refer to my Coach as "Santa Claus", because I would get excited to talk to him, email him, and his visits to stay with me had me like a kid at Christmas.

They should learn and understand your workload, how it changes, how your home life is and how that impacts things. They should know everything about you.

Then they can have a true picture of what training you can actually do. Both in the short term (<1 year) and to promote longevity in the sport to get the best out of you.

If they don't have the social skills, emotional intelligence, and insight to be able to tell whats up with you then they are not going to be able to effectively guide your training - after all we are fathers, mothers, partners, employees first, athletes second.

kal7

I come at coaching from slightly different perspective. I prefer to encourage the group to be a good place to hang out so it is easy to attend and be consistent. Then work together to push each other onward and upwards.

Most athletes don't feel that the are at a level that requires a coach, I think this is wrong because it is much easier to help a beginner to improve. Good or experienced athletes think they have already tried all the ideas you want to introduce.

Those that believe they do need a coach can't afford high level coaching and most coaches will find it difficult to give over enough time to give each athlete a full programme to address all the parameters that need attention.

I would love to work like a Osteopath colleague of mine in London he sees one client per week over 4 and 1/2 days, he lives along side them, goes to their gym, run sessions etc. He then can teach how to shop eat/cook, sleep and rest, train and recover, assess and guide techniques.
Problem is costs 1500 euro for week, he sees 15% olympic level athletes, 10% very rich people and the rest are those in chronic pain.

With athletes educating themselves now via internet I go for encouraging pier 2 pier learning and discussion. I look over the training plan of athlete rather than prescribing it, looking for overtraining and preference for favourite activities. Pick one key technique point to work on, especially as they already have a swim and bike run coached sessions in our club.

RayCun

kal7 wrote: »

pier 2 pier learning and discussion

swim coach?

peter kern

pgibbo wrote: »

It would depend on the coach and the individual. Not every coach believes there is a place for stretching in triathlon given the limited range of motion required. Some coaches are big advocates of strength and conditioning via the gym whereas others prefer to do sport specific - band, buoy and paddles, big gear work or hill running as examples. This is why it's important to know what you want and what a coach offers. I'd say that as the coach gets to know an athlete they can determine what's required from a mental aspect. A good coach will know the athlete better than they know themselves.

brill answer
i think at this stage you also have to ask how much can you afford to pay for all this .

peter kern

SucCes09 wrote: »

What about the role of the coach in terms of the other aspects? Mental side of training (and racing), stretching, strenght work, etc? I assume a good coach would provide guidance on all of these areas also?

this is a very very interesting question me thinks
and you could have 25 ways of thinking a lot of stuff is overrated or over marketed in triathlon
as the same time by sending one of my clients to hot yoga I we got 10 min improvement in a half marathon .... no that ahtelte could not touch the knee with their hand ......
this is something we forget with the strenght and stretch discussin there a certain level of strength and flex is needed at the same time any more and for non pros it takes away from swim bike and run
its a very intersting subject
my opinion on this is its also very important to make atheltes aware to use what they have ( i have one athlete at swim session that is a pilates instructor and physio ( and good in both) could not engage the core when athletes started swimming with us ......


the mental side is a total issue fear is an atheltes biggest enemy. and of course this is why sutton has such a track record he can solve this better than any triathlon coach .
the problem is its not a nice gadged one can buy so its not sexy

Dory Dory

peter kern wrote: »

the mental side is a total issue fear is an atheltes biggest enemy. and of course this is why sutton has such a track record he can solve this better than any triathlon coach .
the problem is its not a nice gadged one can buy so its not sexy

Fear? Tell me....what are they afraid of?

peter kern

Dory Dory wrote: »

Fear? Tell me....what are they afraid of?

http://www.active.com/health/articles/how-to-conquer-fear-of-failure
some simple stuff
in a nutshell
athletes like actors ( its actually amzing to see how many actors have thereapists) are often fragile or complex but driven people that want and need admiratrion from other people,
and often by overthinking or sefldoubt paralyse themself .
also loads of people get worried this guy does this he bought this i need this ,is what i do the right thing.

there is nothing better than watching people at an tri expo before an ironman and how it messes with so many peoples head. ( really how stupid is it to buy a new wetsuit 2 days before a race...
how many people switched from 404 to disc a week before the race were close to a nervous breakdown as they wear worried so much aobut the right choice.

some people go totally crazy in hotel they see one guy swimming they feel they have to swim than they see another go going for a bike ride they feel they have to go for a bike abd they overthink everything , its part of being good but also often the biggest performace limiter .

today i had to bet 50 euro with one of me athletes is going too run a certain time next weekend , he just dosnt want to believe me he is cabable of this time .
all the numbers are there ( i know how much faster he is than myslef and i know that even i can run that time, yes it will be a pb for him, but by the end of march he will have broken that 5 k pb by more than a minute )
so he is holding himself back coming up with irrational excuses i have not done speed work etc etc
iam not even going to taper him so sure iam to win my 50 euro. he has it in him but if he dosnt believe it .... you can call it what you want but the underlying factor is fear of failure or lack in self belief ( i would see it as a failure if he dosnt go 20 sec faster than the time that will bring me 50 euro )

kal7

Oops!
Thanks Raycun, for pointing out my encouraging athletes to swim from pier to pier while having discussion. Knew sent that with out proof reading.

At least I didn't call any of my peers, a block wall in a harbour.

tunney

A man much wiser than me once said to me "Dave if you ask a surgeon for his opinion, you get a surgeons opinion".

What would be useful would be if non-coaches contributed what they want or expect from a coach and see where that goes. Rather than a description of services offered.

Oryx

What do I want from a coach? At first, I needed to hand over my recovery to someone more sensible than me; I knew in my rush to get back I would get it wrong. I had also spent two years on the edge of burnout, again, I was doing things wrong for me. A coach makes my decisions for me so I can stop second guessing what I am at. They add a level of control I was lacking and a new approach with a different emphasis. They see when i need to pull back when I don't. A coach makes me do the sessions I don't want to do, but need.

I want a person who will work with me, understand my limits, but push me harder than I am used to. Someone who shows they are paying attention so I can trust them. At the moment they have turned my training upside down and I'm still getting used to that.

RJM85

I got myself a coach after our son was born. Partly because I would have less time to train so would need to be smarter about it and partly because the improvements I had been seeing for the past 2ish years from just getting out the door and plugging away with no structure were starting to level off.

To a certain degree, what my coach does is prescriptive in that he gives me the sessions and I do them as best I can. I also run things past him the odd time. And he'll check in to see how I'm getting on / feeling etc. Almost all of our contact is by email and I've never met him but it works for me.

The main thing I've gained from it is I've learned (or am learning) how to approach /training/ as opposed to exercising.

I spoke to 2 coaches at the time - I didn't go with the other guy as I felt he would want me to fit to a very rigid structure as opposed to being practical about getting the best out of what I can actually do given various constraints. The idea that we're people first, then athletes (debatable) is something that I think is definitely needed at this level.

zico10

tunney wrote: »

From my perspective of when I was working with a coach.
Started in 2005/2006 stopped at the end of 2011.
Still in contact with him but uncoachable at the minute.

They should know you are sick before you do
They should know your family set up, kids and spouse.
They should know how you think and react to good and bad things.
They should know you better than you know yourself in alot of respects.

They should be so close a part of you life that you invite them to your wedding, your kids parties, everything.

My mother in law used to refer to my Coach as "Santa Claus", because I would get excited to talk to him, email him, and his visits to stay with me had me like a kid at Christmas.

They should learn and understand your workload, how it changes, how your home life is and how that impacts things. They should know everything about you.

Then they can have a true picture of what training you can actually do. Both in the short term (<1 year) and to promote longevity in the sport to get the best out of you.

If they don't have the social skills, emotional intelligence, and insight to be able to tell whats up with you then they are not going to be able to effectively guide your training - after all we are fathers, mothers, partners, employees first, athletes second.

That's some level of service and I'm assuming you're not a millionaire. How many ordinary age group athletes could a coach provide that level of service to and still make a reasonable living out of it? Sure poor Peter has to make €50 bets every chance he gets to supplement his income. What's the point at which a coach has spread himself too thinly?

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

A man much wiser than me once said to me "Dave if you ask a surgeon for his opinion, you get a surgeons opinion".

What would be useful would be if non-coaches contributed what they want or expect from a coach and see where that goes. Rather than a description of services offered.

"Dave if you ask a surgeon for his opinion, you get a surgeons opinion".
which is basically saying each industry tries to push its products useful or not
or is very opiniotaded how they work. to which i would like to add in most companies the marketing and sales people earn more than the engineers )
if you were to aske a real good surgon than you should get a balanced view ( and of course those people are rare)


At least 2 people in this thread a teacher and athelte and many other in mangment and are atheltes .so they can see from both sides. and i am also deciding what i want from a coach and what i need.
unfortunately the thread has long gone away from what it was intended
which was basically to discuss the advantage and disatvantage of a road bike time trial bike and hybrid bike in the context of coaching .

to which one person said is their really a difference, and another person said its oversimplifying it to serperate it in a few main categories main categories.


i think what you suggest is a different thread called what do you want form a ( coach ,a book or an online programm. or in deed why would one need a coach.
i do not think it depends on the level in the sport it dpends on your character your need and priorities and there is many people out there that do not need a coach and are 50 times better of in a tri club .

and then maybe anohter thread what style of coaching they want the guru the dictator the listener the analyticer the well done sayer etc etc
( and of course there is nothing black in white ,as in real live they all mix togheter
sometimes and one treats different atheltes or employees at work differetly. but still manager coaches like polars and garmins have tendencies on what they focus on.

sconhome

From the title of the thread and

i thought it might not be wrong to discuss coaching and it's differences

I assumed that this was a discussion about what people think coaching is about and an opportunity for those here who offer coachings services to find out what people expect in a coaching service.

Seems not to be the case

RJM85

AKW wrote: »

From the title of the thread and



I assumed that this was a discussion about what people think coaching is about and an opportunity for those here who offer coachings services to find out what people expect in a coaching service.

Seems not to be the case

Sure we can start a thread titled 'what's the difference between road, tri and hybrid bikes for triathlon' and discuss coaching in that.

Dory Dory

AKW wrote: »

From the title of the thread and



I assumed that this was a discussion about what people think coaching is about and an opportunity for those here who offer coachings services to find out what people expect in a coaching service.

Seems not to be the case

I'm with you. Unless Peter minds, I say we keep this going...discussing both perspectives - athlete's and coach's.

Dory Dory

Dory Dory wrote: »

I'm with you. Unless Peter minds, I say we keep this going...discussing both perspectives - athlete's and coach's.

Hmmm....I guess we're going to see just how "flexible" Peter is.