NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

MajesticDonkey

Good video...the only worrying part is when she said speeds of up to "1 Gigabyte" will be achievable, obviously meaning 1 Gigabit...

ED E

Business person, nonntechnical no doubt.

If they go all in it'll be really impressive. The size of the exchange in Belcara really shows how its a small scale trial, but that's the target market I suppose.

Jakey Rolling

I would certainly have worries over Eircom hanging fibre off their existing poles.

A year after the storms of January 2014, they have just got round to replacing the worst affected poles around here. Yet they have still left a 50 metre length of cable that is lying on the ground across a field entrance. Copper might have survived the traffic over it, I doubt that fibre would be so resilient!

Given the safety requirement for ESB infrastructure to be structurally sound, and be repaired quickly I would have more confidence in using it to support FTTH.

Gonzo

This just can't happen soon enough! hopefully whoever wins the contract can start connecting people up over the next few months with some services live before the end of the year.

ED E

Gonzo wrote: »

This just can't happen soon enough! hopefully whoever wins the contract can start connecting people up over the next few months with some services live before the end of the year.

Unfortunately thats a pipe dream. COMREG are still in the process of hiring a technical lead for it, all a long way off.

MajesticDonkey

Gonzo wrote: »

This just can't happen soon enough! hopefully whoever wins the contract can start connecting people up over the next few months with some services live before the end of the year.

This is the complete opposite of what should happen. The government and state bodies have a long history of rushing things without due care and planning.

As someone who is currently using a 4Mb fixed wireless connection ("the best a man can get"), I can't wait for this either, but they can bloody well take their time and do it properly!

Sheldons Brain

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

I would certainly have worries over Eircom hanging fibre off their existing poles.

A year after the storms of January 2014, they have just got round to replacing the worst affected poles around here. Yet they have still left a 50 metre length of cable that is lying on the ground across a field entrance. Copper might have survived the traffic over it, I doubt that fibre would be so resilient!

Given the safety requirement for ESB infrastructure to be structurally sound, and be repaired quickly I would have more confidence in using it to support FTTH.

In sparsely populated rural areas, the ESB network should be used, and Eircom allowed provide service over this and dismantle their poles. Where there is a certain population density, the present situation can remain.

bk

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

In sparsely populated rural areas, the ESB network should be used, and Eircom allowed provide service over this and dismantle their poles. Where there is a certain population density, the present situation can remain.

Yes, there should only be one network and one pole. By why should Eircom be allowed to do this? Why not just allow the ESB to directly run their own fiber over their own poles to people.

Should we really be rewarding Eircom for not investing in their network over the last 20 years and leaving it to fall apart?

And given the difference in finances as described earlier, it is clear that the ESB would be able to deliver it for far less money then Eircom. So why pay more for it?

And finally if the ESB own the network, then the network remains in semi state ownership, rather then private ownership, which is preferable.

The more I think about it, the more I favour the ESB rolling out this rural network.

Of course if the ESB aren't interested in doing this and Eircom are the only ones interested in rolling out FTTH, then of course we should go with them. But they aren't my favoured option.

Hackery

http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/Our_Network/

Eircom's fibre network is very deep into rural Ireland.

ESB are having big problems with their roll out hence the delay until 2016. This is despite a real push to launch early 2015.

Danny Boy

Hackery wrote: »

http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/Our_Network/

Eircom's fibre network is very deep into rural Ireland.

ESB are having big problems with their roll out hence the delay until 2016. This is despite a real push to launch early 2015.

Do we really know that the ESB are having big problems?

rob808

Eircom really are only one doing trails for rural areas for FTTH.The ESB haven't even said what there doing if they win and no trails.I do think ESB would be the best but there not saying much so really don't know how interest they are in NBP.This LTE A has me worried doubt it would work for me since I have a lot of tress around me doh my satellite work ok but mobile phone useless.I would hope I'm not one of those end of road red ribbon areas that get LTE A would rather FTTH or FTTP.

Cuddlesworth

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

I would certainly have worries over Eircom hanging fibre off their existing poles.

A year after the storms of January 2014, they have just got round to replacing the worst affected poles around here. Yet they have still left a 50 metre length of cable that is lying on the ground across a field entrance. Copper might have survived the traffic over it, I doubt that fibre would be so resilient!

Given the safety requirement for ESB infrastructure to be structurally sound, and be repaired quickly I would have more confidence in using it to support FTTH.

If done right, most hub locations would have 3-4 redundant links creating a huge meshed network. So you could lose multiple poles and at most have a 1-2 second drop in connectivity.

bk

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

If done right, most hub locations would have 3-4 redundant links creating a huge meshed network. So you could lose multiple poles and at most have a 1-2 second drop in connectivity.

Well there is very little chance of that happening!

FTTH is going to cost enough as it is without running multiple redundant links!!

ED E

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

If done right, most hub locations would have 3-4 redundant links creating a huge meshed network. So you could lose multiple poles and at most have a 1-2 second drop in connectivity.

Ideally yes, but it wont happen. There are large exchanges (1000s of customers) on spurs, no way distrib nodes are getting meshed access.

wexfordman2

ED E wrote: »

Ideally yes, but it wont happen. There are large exchanges (1000s of customers) on spurs, no way distrib nodes are getting meshed access.

I would have thought that with copper infrastructure meshing woykd be difficult, as it requires not just physical connectivity, but the capacity as well.

Would think it would be much easier with fibre.

ED E

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I would have thought that with copper infrastructure meshing woykd be difficult, as it requires not just physical connectivity, but the capacity as well.

Would think it would be much easier with fibre.

I wasnt referring to copper infrastructure at all. Most exchanges link to the rest of the core with fibre.

KOR101

Been trying to dig into what's happening elsewhere. The biggest thing that bothers me about what Eircom are saying re FTTH as the best solution is that it exceeds the EU objective (could that cause problems?) and the lack of precedent.

This is Poland's take on it.

http://bitspiration.com/news/technology/digital-poland-program-to-provide-30-mbs-internet-in-every-home/

LTE technology may provide Internet services to the most faraway rural areas, where providing stationary infrastructure is not profitable even when accounting for European funds.

Danny Boy

KOR101 wrote: »

Been trying to dig into what's happening elsewhere. The biggest thing that bothers me about what Eircom are saying re FTTH as the best solution is that it exceeds the EU objective (could that cause problems?) and the lack of precedent.

This is Poland's take on it.

http://bitspiration.com/news/technology/digital-poland-program-to-provide-30-mbs-internet-in-every-home/

LTE technology may provide Internet services to the most faraway rural areas, where providing stationary infrastructure is not profitable even when accounting for European funds.

I think there will always be an LTE part to any solution, eircom are saying FTTH for most of it.

Cuddlesworth

Danny Boy wrote: »

I think there will always be an LTE part to any solution, eircom are saying FTTH for most of it.

No, they are saying FTTH for everything. Every single house in the country.

I have my doubts about it being anywhere near cost effective.

On the point of meshed networks, we have such a huge problem with ribbon development that its rare to go further than 500 meters before reaching a house on any road in any direction. So in reality, there are very few places in which you would say this is clearly the point in which Hub A ends and Hub B begins. Which to me says that if you're running cable/digging trench and dropping down fibre, its extremely cost effective to run an extra cable and put it that extra 500 meters to create that redundant link.

godskitchen

This term, ribbon development, it's starting to annoy me.

Everyone keeps trotting it out as some kind of issue unique to Ireland. It's not.

Iv been to every country in Europe apart from Denmark, and this ribbon development is no way unique to Ireland.

We are a tiny, tiny country. Granted our population is not huge but compared to land mass vs people, we have nothing on most countries.

Can you imagine if the esb, back in the day, trotted out this "ribbon " crap.

This is the market we have.

Danny Boy

godskitchen wrote: »

This term, ribbon development, it's starting to annoy me.

Everyone keeps trotting it out as some kind of issue unique to Ireland. It's not.

Iv been to every country in Europe apart from Denmark, and this ribbon development is no way unique to Ireland.

We are a tiny, tiny country. Granted our population is not huge but compared to land mass vs people, we have nothing on most countries.

Can you imagine if the esb, back in the day, trotted out this "ribbon " crap.

This is the market we have.

Rural electrification - commenced 1946, only completed by the mid 70s

http://www.ouririshheritage.org/page_id__73.aspx

murphaph

godskitchen wrote: »

This term, ribbon development, it's starting to annoy me.

Everyone keeps trotting it out as some kind of issue unique to Ireland. It's not.

Iv been to every country in Europe apart from Denmark, and this ribbon development is no way unique to Ireland.

We are a tiny, tiny country. Granted our population is not huge but compared to land mass vs people, we have nothing on most countries.

Can you imagine if the esb, back in the day, trotted out this "ribbon " crap.

This is the market we have.

As noted by the poster above me, rural electrification took 40 odd years to complete AND the levels of ribbon and one off properties back then were a fraction of what they are now. Ireland began with it's bungalow blitz towards the end of rural electrification.

I also beg to differ that ribbon development (and indeed one off development) is common across Europe. It's not even common in Great Britain (it IS common in Northern Ireland as they had a very softly softly approach to planning to "keep the natives happy").

Here in Germany planning law defines "inside a built up area" and "outside a built up area" and the built up area boundaries generally don't change. The default position in German planning law is that it is forbidden to build anything "outside a built up area" unless there are very special circumstances (farm buildings, for example). This has been the case for decades, resulting in urban densification.

I have no idea where this is but I just zoomed in on some random part of Germany and this is what I found. It's so different to the ribbon development you see in Ireland. Small CLUSTERS of maybe 50 or 100 homes in perhaps 1km². These types of settlements are easy and cost effective to provide VDSL to. Rural Ireland essentially needs FTTH as VDSL is next to useless because of the dispersed settlement.

godskitchen

Danny Boy wrote: »

Rural electrification - commenced 1946, only completed by the mid 70s

http://www.ouririshheritage.org/page_id__73.aspx

.......what is your point? That it took a long time?

Rural telecommunication 1970-2030?

This is the last thing any provider will have to do for the foreseeable future.

They need to look at it long term and work out the cost over 30+ years. Ribbon development or not, fibre is the only answer so get it done.

godskitchen

murphaph wrote: »

As noted by the poster above me, rural electrification took 40 odd years to complete AND the levels of ribbon and one off properties back then were a fraction of what they are now. Ireland began with it's bungalow blitz towards the end of rural electrification.

I also beg to differ that ribbon development (and indeed one off development) is common across Europe. It's not even common in Great Britain (it IS common in Northern Ireland as they had a very softly softly approach to planning to "keep the natives happy").

Here in Germany planning law defines "inside a built up area" and "outside a built up area" and the built up area boundaries generally don't change. The default position in German planning law is that it is forbidden to build anything "outside a built up area" unless there are very special circumstances (farm buildings, for example). This has been the case for decades, resulting in urban densification.

I have no idea where this is but I just zoomed in on some random part of Germany and this is what I found. It's so different to the ribbon development you see in Ireland. Small CLUSTERS of maybe 50 or 100 homes in perhaps 1km². These types of settlements are easy and cost effective to provide VDSL to. Rural Ireland essentially needs FTTH as VDSL is next to useless because of the dispersed settlement.

Yep, I just zoomed into a random part of France. Looks like here. One off housing, clusters of 3/4 houses. You would be hard pushed to say what country it was comparing it to Ireland.

This ribbon development talk is akin to not maintaining roads (you could agree they are not maintained, I would however put the blame on how our council system works for that) because there is only one or two house on the side.

Rubbish, it's what we have and we are stuck with it. Run the fibre now or pay more to do it in the future. Do it now and it will continue to generate cash for you for the next 50-70 years.

Eircom know this.

Danny Boy

godskitchen wrote: »

.......what is your point? That it took a long time?

Rural telecommunication 1970-2030?

This is the last thing any provider will have to do for the foreseeable future.

They need to look at it long term and work out the cost over 30+ years. Ribbon development or not, fibre is the only answer so get it done.

Point is the ESB took 40 years to rural electrification, they've been in the telecoms market since 2000 with minimal impact, and now their project scheduled to start in late 2014/15 has all of a sudden been pushed back by a year.

So I don't exactly have blind faith in them to do this either, all we know to date about their fibre prowess is they've connected a few houses in Cavan.

Cuddlesworth

godskitchen wrote: »

Yep, I just zoomed into a random part of France. Looks like here. One off housing, clusters of 3/4 houses. You would be hard pushed to say what country it was comparing it to Ireland.

This ribbon development talk is akin to not maintaining roads (you could agree they are not maintained, I would however put the blame on how our council system works for that) because there is only one or two house on the side.

Rubbish, it's what we have and we are stuck with it. Run the fibre now or pay more to do it in the future. Do it now and it will continue to generate cash for you for the next 50-70 years.

Eircom know this.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/census2011vol1andprofile1/Profile1_Town_and_Country_Entire_doc.pdf

Page 12. We have a problem with ribbon development and at least 70 years of very bad planning. Its not a assumption, its a real and valid problem. Our Electricity grid costs far more then is should for either the country size or population size.

I've been to Sweden and other countries that work. Even in rural areas, people live in towns. A town is considered above 150 people per kilometer squared.

Jakey Rolling

What to make of this?
http://www.stdc.ie/rural-broadband-for-south-tipperary/

South Tipp Development Company acknowledging the NBP target of 2020 but going ahead with some wireless solution in partnership with Wuhan Vstar - apparently Okayed with ComReg. Better than 30Mbps?

Anyone have insight on their technology?

MajesticDonkey

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

What to make of this?
http://www.stdc.ie/rural-broadband-for-south-tipperary/

South Tipp Development Company acknowledging the NBP target of 2020 but going ahead with some wireless solution in partnership with Wuhan Vstar - apparently Okayed with ComReg. Better than 30Mbps?

Anyone have insight on their technology?

Interesting, thanks for the link!

rob808

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

What to make of this?
http://www.stdc.ie/rural-broadband-for-south-tipperary/

South Tipp Development Company acknowledging the NBP target of 2020 but going ahead with some wireless solution in partnership with Wuhan Vstar - apparently Okayed with ComReg. Better than 30Mbps?

Anyone have insight on their technology?

I would rather stay with DSL than wireless.

MajesticDonkey

rob808 wrote: »

I would rather stay with DSL than wireless.

DSL isn't available in "rural" South Tipperary, and indeed much of "rural" Ireland.