cross on Carrauntoohil cut down

jank

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I didn't cut it down. I don't advocate criminal behaviour. I simply applaud the party who took it upon themselves to cut it down.

You don't advocate criminal behaviour (at least you admit this was) yet you applaud it and hope for more of the same...

BreadnBuddha

jank wrote: »

You don't advocate criminal behaviour (at least you admit this was) yet you applaud it and hope for more of the same...

Oh I don't for a moment acknowledge that it was criminal behaviour, as the facts are not yet clear on this. I don't know who did it, why they did it or how they did it. I, like you and everyone else, am drawing conclusions based on what the photographs published appear to show and no matter what the motivation of the individual(s) concerned or whether or not they are entitled to have taken such actions, I'm applauding the end result; One less religious symbol and pointless alien structure standing on top of a mountain.

Grudaire

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I'm applauding the end result; One less religious symbol and pointless alien structure standing on top of a mountain.

Actually You said you applaud the person who did it..

Your new position on the matter is more reasonable.

72DSpecial

riffmongous wrote: »

It's private land and anything that threatens the relationship between walkers and landowners should be condemned imo

I agree. But I'm also glad the cross is down. It has no place there. It is a symbol of religion - the single greatest threat to peace on our planet.
Cllr. Culloty is seriously scary, though - he said that the cross being cut down is a sign of Ireland becoming a godless society. And that would be a bad thing?
He also says that this means 'abnormal things' (like gay marriage) would become normal.
So what's normal about having a replica of a piece of torture / execution equipment on our highest peak?

my3cents

Dan_Solo wrote: »

An act of god?
Wonder can they claim on the insurance.

I hope they have insurance, imagine if it had fallen on someone or would that have been an act of god?

72DSpecial

groovyg wrote: »

Its odd that somebody would go to the bother of carrying an angle grinder up there to cut it down.
Dunno what that Kerry county councilor is smoking tho!!
Its pure vandalism, it was only a few weeks ago that somebody sent me pics on fb of marked boulders in yellow paint all the way up to Carrauntoohil via heavenly gates.

Vandalism yes, and to be condemned NOT because it was a cross, but because it may jeopordise walker's access rights with the landowner.
That Kerry county councilor is just scary - well he obviously still prays to the invisible man up in the sky!

laoch na mona

72DSpecial wrote: »

I agree. But I'm also glad the cross is down. It has no place there. It is a symbol of religion - the single greatest threat to peace on our planet.
Cllr. Culloty is seriously scary, though - he said that the cross being cut down is a sign of Ireland becoming a godless society. And that would be a bad thing?
He also says that this means 'abnormal things' (like gay marriage) would become normal.
So what's normal about having a replica of a piece of torture / execution equipment on our highest peak?

ahh now Ireland cherishes and respects our BDSM community

72DSpecial

BarryD wrote: »

What about passage graves then Alun? Should they be bulldozed!!

I'd be concerned about John Joe Culloty etc., though - can you imagine what equipment they might want to bring up there to reinstate it.

I'd view it as vandalism as whether we like it or not, the mountain is in private ownership and the local people who live in that district saw fit to put it up for their own reasons.

More controversial perhaps are the placement of footbridges to assist walkers and/or carparks. And what about what seems to be a growing thing of having a personal memorial erected - 'So and so loved these hills, RIP' etc.?

The passage graves ARE NOT copies of ancient torture / execution devices OR symbols of an out-dated psychotic cult, sorry, religion. What's the difference again? Oh yeah - numbers and government recognition.
I must remember to say a few prayers to the Flying Spaghetti Monster to help my memory (or was that st. gob****e of andalucia?)

Dan_Solo

72DSpecial wrote: »

Vandalism yes, and to be condemned NOT because it was a cross, but because it may jeopordise walker's access rights with the landowner.

Well if nothing else this whole thing might raise awareness of Ireland's medieval right to roam laws. Ged orf maa laaand!

72DSpecial

loobylou wrote: »

It was pig ugly, the mountain will be a better place without it.
Personally hope its not replaced, but if it is (as I suspect), how about a stone celtic cross which may at least blend somewhat into its environment.

Put something up there like a memorial to all who've died on Irelands mountains, BUT PLEASE - no religious rubbish.
We've outgrown that.

72DSpecial

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

why would anybody go to the lengths to climb up to cut the cross down ? honestly why would you do something like that?

Why would anybody go to the bother of putting it up there in the first place? They must have been under the delusion that god exists AND that he gives a damn!

Sad sods.

my3cents

Alun wrote: »

I'm also starting to come to the conclusion it wasn't an act of vandalism, but rather simple metal fatigue. The cut is way too close to the base. If you were going up there to cut the thing down, you wouldn't go to all that trouble to cut so cleanly and so close to the base, assuming you could even get that close with whatever tool you were using.

Can't see how you come to that conclusion? With an angle grinder you can cut at ground level.

Looking at the picture you can see the angle of the cut and even the blue overheated area where the steel post probably went tight on the disk creating a hot spot as the last bit was cut through.

A battery operated angle grinder with a spare battery and couple of stainless steel cutting disks less than 15 minutes work to get that down.

They really should have gone for the "miracle" affect and cut it up a bit more and taken the bits away.

72DSpecial

jank wrote: »

Why?

Do you think these are selfish too?



PRAYER FLAGS AND STUPAS ARE NOT SYMBOLS OF GODS OR REPLICAS OF ANCIENT TORTURE / EXECUTION DEVICES LIKE THAT CROSS WAS.

BreadnBuddha

Grudaire wrote: »

Actually You said you applaud the person who did it..

Your new position on the matter is more reasonable.

My position has evolved from one of pure delight to that of simple satisfaction. In my excitement over what had occurred I pictured a ninja with a pair of NVG's and a grinder scaling the devils ladder in mere minutes, ready to drop the thing with 4 surgically precise cuts.

Alas, sobriety has resumed its influence.

Popoutman

I say put it back up and paint it white, so it can be seen from a distance, similar to the cross on Galtymore.

Personally I like the idea of marking the actual summit point whether it be with cairn, cross, or triangulation marker. The cross is at least historically relevant for this country no matter what the current standings are. When climbing up, it's a great feeling to have the final destination in sight, and a cross is usually easier to see and distinguish than the standard cairns.

I'm not a practicing catholic, but I feel no hatred for the symbolism of that religion, same as I feel no hatred for other religious symbolism. I feel dislike for those that are militant either for or against other religious items.

Put it back up to mark our history, not because it's a religious symbol.

sconhome

No one heard of a con saw? Petrol powered and portable.

Steel blade and that was cross cut down in probably less than 2 minutes. Looking at the picture earlier you can see the heat mark on the left hand side and on the bottom side of the cut a lip where the cut-around didn't line up.

72DSpecial

Manach wrote: »

Personally I'd make it about your utter ignorance of history. It would seem to be too measured to the natural. Instead it betokens an open mind which any slight, fancy or odd notion has alighted on it. Religion build communities.
The natural landscape of Ireland has been shaped by the culture of the people. This has in large part been a Catholic tradition. The shaping of such allows the current generation to enjoy such, without having a jot of understanding in cases such of yours how it come to be. A tablua rasa.
Instead of a respect for traditional bedrocks of rural Ireland, the precedence of this is having roving bands of Mao-like culture warriors seeking to "improve" the landscape by removing "foreign" objects.

So religion builds communities.

Can you run that by me again?

Religion DIVIDES communities.

Religion, as George Carlin so aptly put it, is bull****.

BarryD

72DSpecial wrote: »

The passage graves ARE NOT copies of ancient torture / execution devices OR symbols of an out-dated psychotic cult, sorry, religion. What's the difference again? Oh yeah - numbers and government recognition.
I must remember to say a few prayers to the Flying Spaghetti Monster to help my memory (or was that st. gob****e of andalucia?)

How precisely may I ask you, do you know what the exact functions of passage graves and various other 'megalithic' remains are??? The people who lived 4500-6000 years ago didn't exactly leave instructions for them!!

It's thought they may have paid heed to Gods of nature, they certainly had the time and inclination to raise substantial monuments but neither you or I really have a clue as to what their intent was or why they did it.

So have a bit of perspective please and show a bit of respect for older customs and beliefs even if we may not necessarily agree with them now.

my3cents

AKW wrote: »

No one heard of a con saw? Petrol powered and portable.

Steel blade and that was cross cut down in probably less than 2 minutes. Looking at the picture earlier you can see the heat mark on the left hand side and on the bottom side of the cut a lip where the cut-around didn't line up.

Could well have been, 4 cuts one from each corner.

72DSpecial

72DSpecial wrote: »

The passage graves ARE NOT copies of ancient torture / execution devices OR symbols of an out-dated psychotic cult, sorry, religion. What's the difference again? Oh yeah - numbers and government recognition.
I must remember to say a few prayers to the Flying Spaghetti Monster to help my memory (or was that st. gob****e of andalucia?)

But you can put up something to the Flying Spaghetti Monster on your land. Or a symbol of "ancient torture/execution devices".

And respect the rights of people who own land to put a cross on theirs.

It's all about tolerance. Even for symbolism of a religion you dislike.

72DSpecial

MysticalRain wrote: »

Out of the way places that are close to nature tend to feel oddly spiritual and otherworldly. Crosses or religious monuments are often placed at a prominent location to act as a focal point for people's feelings. There's also a grotto with a statue of the virgin Mary on the summit of a nearby mountain which illustrates the same point, and actually fits in quite well with the landscape (no doubt somebody will also try to vandalise that someday as well). Now that might sound like a load of codswallop to the average atheist, and I would probably agree with that notion myself if I hadn't visited these places many times on various climbing trips. But that's human nature for you.

Most people who are from the area, including non-believers like myself, quite rightly see this as an egregious act for someone to go in there and commit an act of vandalism against a religious monument just because they have a grudge against the Catholic Church. They might be targeting the CC, but they are also giving the two fingers to the private land owners and the community who put it there, and enjoyed it's cultural significance (assuming it wasn't metal fatigue, or vandalism for the sake of it).

I really wish the people here rejoicing in the crosses destruction would actually take a trip up these mountains some time to see these places for themselves. I don't feel like any less of an atheist for having visited these places myself. But I at least have a more nuanced, and less dogmatic view of these things for having done so.

I rejoice in the cross being down, because it was(?) a symbol of our country kow-towing to a bunch of deluded megalomaniacal, deluded, child-abusing, brainwashing nutbags.

Good riddance.

72DSpecial

Alun wrote: »

I'm also starting to come to the conclusion it wasn't an act of vandalism, but rather simple metal fatigue. The cut is way too close to the base. If you were going up there to cut the thing down, you wouldn't go to all that trouble to cut so cleanly and so close to the base, assuming you could even get that close with whatever tool you were using.

God did it!

Well - it seems to be the most popular answer put forward by the worshippers of the invisible man up in the sky to all the worlds questions.

Dan_Solo

Deleted User wrote: »

But you can put up something to the Flying Spaghetti Monster on your land. Or a symbol of "ancient torture/execution devices".

Well you can if you have planning permission.
Not sure if they had any for this cross, when the metal one was put up in the 70s. May not matter in rural Kerry...

BarryD

Manach wrote: »

The natural landscape of Ireland has been shaped by the culture of the people. This has in large part been a Catholic tradition.

What a strange idea! To equate the shaping of the landscape of Ireland with Catholicism, kind of warped thinking.

The natural landscape of Ireland has indeed been shaped and modified by many generations of people, seeking to make a life and exploit what they can of natures gifts.

But this has nothing to at all to do with religion, Catholic or otherwise. At all.

Sure, they may have raised churches and a few crosses and monuments etc., but these are mostly very minor embellishments in the greater scheme of human activities.

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well you can if you have planning permission.
Not sure if they had any for this cross, when the metal one was put up in the 70s. May not matter in rural Kerry...

Not sure planning is needed as there was a cross there for decades.

But either way, I suspect no one cared before this incident. I can never remember a thread here or anywhere calling into question the planning status of the Cross.

laoch na mona

Popoutman wrote: »

I say put it back up and paint it white, so it can be seen from a distance, similar to the cross on Galtymore.

Personally I like the idea of marking the actual summit point whether it be with cairn, cross, or triangulation marker. The cross is at least historically relevant for this country no matter what the current standings are. When climbing up, it's a great feeling to have the final destination in sight, and a cross is usually easier to see and distinguish than the standard cairns.

I'm not a practicing catholic, but I feel no hatred for the symbolism of that religion, same as I feel no hatred for other religious symbolism. I feel dislike for those that are militant either for or against other religious items.

Put it back up to mark our history, not because it's a religious symbol.

if you want to celebrate Stockholm syndrome it is. I agree sumit markers are useful and I personally don't mind a cross but it s not an accurate symbol of Irish history (unless its a Celtic cross or other medieval style monument) overt conservative Catholicism has had a very short history in Ireland

The medieval Irish church disagreed with Rome about serious theological matters

Gaelic poetry from the 16th and 17th century openly mocked clergy

in the late 18th century when Rome decided it was time for Ireland to conform to catholic norms they had to tackle traditions of using wakes to set up marriages and faction fights, a lack of church marriages among the Irish population, inactive clergy and the presence of pagan traditions

the church rose to prominence due to the British opening Maynooth at the end of the 18th century to ensure Catholic loyalty to the British government (it worked the church did not support any independence movements)
many traditions such as Lughnasa fires did not end until the church became a key part of the state after partition

so crucifixies do not represent Irish history

Alun

my3cents wrote: »

Could well have been, 4 cuts one from each corner.

But if it was indeed simply an act of vandalism why go to all the trouble of making it so neat and tidy? Why so close to the ground? Why not simply go in at an angle at waist height, downwards away from you, to make sure it fell in the right direction and not land on top of you and potentially kill you?

If you blow the picture up, it looks like the thing was made by welding two U sections together rather than a ready made box section. That might explain the 'burn mark' on the left.

Look at the picture linked in post #4 of a modern post that failed due to fatigue. That looks pretty neat too and you'd be forgiven for thinking that had been cut too if you didn't know the truth.

Dan_Solo

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure planning is needed as there was a cross there for decades.

That would depend on whether the original wooden cross would be considered a temporary structure, in which case planning may not be required.
I think the fact they thought they needed to replace it with an iron cross would say this was true, so the new, permanent cross would have required permission when it went up in the 70s.
I have no idea if they needed, sought or were granted this though.

BreadnBuddha

Alun wrote: »

But if it was indeed simply an act of vandalism why go to all the trouble of making it so neat and tidy? Why so close to the ground? Why not simply go in at an angle at waist height, downwards away from you, to make sure it fell in the right direction and not land on top of you and potentially kill you?

If you blow the picture up, it looks like the thing was made by welding two U sections together rather than a ready made box section. That might explain the 'burn mark' on the left.

Look at the picture linked in post #4 of a modern post that failed due to fatigue. That looks pretty neat too and you'd be forgiven for thinking that had been cut too if you didn't know the truth.

It's easy to label it as an act of wanton destruction of vandalism, especially were it simply hacked to pieces.

That was a near surgical removal. Cutting it down neatly shows this was a considered act, not random vandalism.

72DSpecial

BarryD wrote: »

How precisely may I ask you, do you know what the exact functions of passage graves and various other 'megalithic' remains are??? The people who lived 4500-6000 years ago didn't exactly leave instructions for them!!

It's thought they may have paid heed to Gods of nature, they certainly had the time and inclination to raise substantial monuments but neither you or I really have a clue as to what their intent was or why they did it.

So have a bit of perspective please and show a bit of respect for older customs and beliefs even if we may not necessarily agree with them now.

You mentioned passage GRAVES and my comment pertained to them.

And - I REFUSE to show any respect for a custom like crucifiction or a religion like christianity, or for any other theistic religion for that matter. Any organisation that stifles rational thought by saying 'god did it' to all the important questions deserves no respect.

An organisation that praises FAITH - the ability to believe in something WITH NO EVIDENCE - and thus ignorance DESERVES NO RESPECT.

I refuse to show any respect for the religion that kept us 'in our place' for so long or for it's officers or symbols.

This is because they spent (and unfortunately are still spending) so long indoctrinating us and our children with their mental delusion that states that we must love a god who will torture us for all eternity if we do not love him, that we must put up with worldly suffering and 'offer it up' to him, and put up with his judgement after death.
Like the Hitch said, it's like living in a spiritual North Korea, except that you can actually leave North Korea by F***ING DYING.

The church is dying, thanks be to Dog.