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cross on Carrauntoohil cut down

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    #32
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    robp wrote: »
    You really are a parody of yourself. I'd advise you not to comment on areas outside your expertise. By insisting on the mountain being its mountainty self you want to impose your own fanciful ideal of what a mountain should be, destroying any heritage in the process. From a legal perspective the fact the cross is 20 th century changes nothing.

    I hope the thugs who did this are prosecuted. We don't value our heritage enough in the country. A year ago some scumbags went out of their way to smash a medieval cross in Dunsany Meath. This trend has to be combated.

    A parody of myself? Down with this sort of thing and all that?

    Outside my area of expertise you say?

    There's a big difference between a stone cross at an 8th century monastic settlement being vandalised and a few pieces of box section steel, a handful of bolts and a few sacks of sand and cement that were dumped on the top of Carrauntoohil being chopped down with a cordless angle grinder.

    1970's religious tat being dumped on the mountain isn't heritage. It's tacky crap that never should be been there in the first place. It's not like there was a celtic stone cross there back in the day, is it? It's the mountainside equivalent of the towers in Ballymun.

    Good riddance I say, and may the man with the grinder wet his boots on a few more summits around the island before he hangs up his power tools.


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    #33
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    robp wrote: »
    Well it is militant and criminal too. The cross is a landmark on private land. I am all for maintaining untouched wilderness but Carrauntoohil is just not suitable for that. Anyway there is a certain dishonestly trying to remove all human traces there- the spot is steeped in human cultural significance.

    From an aesthetic point of view the cross added a lot. Those who complain that a cross is divisive are being unreasonable precious. Why not leave Carrauntoohil as it is, cross and all.

    The cross did acknowledge important local figures.

    Why not let someone put it back the way it was before some Jesus freaks decided to bolt some leftover ironwork together?

    I'm getting a smell of Uppity Holy Joe off the soles of your boots, as you ride by on your oul' high horse there too.

    Cementing that monstrosity onto a Mountain in a National Park was militant and criminal.


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    #34
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,680 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    BreadnBuddha wrote: »
    Why not let someone put it back the way it was before some Jesus freaks decided to bolt some leftover ironwork together?

    I'm getting a smell of Uppity Holy Joe off the soles of your boots, as you ride by on your oul' high horse there too.

    Cementing that monstrosity onto a Mountain in a National Park was militant and criminal.

    Are you wilfully ignoring the fact that it's private land?


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    #35
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    No.

    I'm willfully declining to accept that the land should be labelled as privately owned in the first place.

    But that's another discussion entirely and I won't digress or be drawn on it.

    Again, well done that man with the Makita.


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    #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Yawlboy wrote: »
    did it have planning permission in the first place?

    Was it needed? The cross was there since the 1940s or 50s afaik, before planning permission. It was replaced in the 1970s, but that might mean permission was not necessary then.


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    #37
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,681 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Well nice to know it is a foretaste of the delightful Ireland the PC brigade have in sort for a future Ireland. A type of Year-Zero approach to removing any aspects of non-approved or ideological different articles.


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    #38
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    This isn't about PC, ideology, religion.

    It could have been a giant Michelin man or a 5 meter high ice cream cone and I'd have been just as happy.

    None of that crap, yes crap, should be on a mountain top.

    On the religion bit, say your prayers and grace. Go to confession. Take communion. Read the bible, the Quran, the Torah, whatever. Hangs a star of david, a crucifix or a pentagram on the wall of your house or tattooed on your neck if you want for all I care.

    Just don't put it on a mountain.

    If you do, someone will cut it down again. Probably.


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    #39
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,681 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    No - that is purest non-sense, evasion and deflection that tries the skirt around the base responsibility that such engages in the PC culture. Not surprising. By seeking to eliminate traces of the past and to have one narrow progressive mindset that seeks to minimise or belittle its opponent ie"Jesus freaks".

    This gives a patina of permission for the little ideological wunderkids to try their vandalising ways.


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    #40
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    Manach wrote: »
    No - that is purest non-sense, evasion and deflection that tries the skirt around the base responsibility that such engages in the PC culture. Not surprising. By seeking to eliminate traces of the past and to have one narrow progressive mindset that seeks to minimise or belittle its opponent ie"Jesus freaks".

    This gives a patina of permission for the little ideological wunderkids to try their vandalising ways.

    The only people who will go to the trouble and effort to once again inappropriately position an alien structure on the top of a mountain in a stunning location like the reeks, will be those I fondly refer to as Jesus Freaks, the devout Christians who seem to think it's okay to do so because it's a symbol of their faith.

    I don't care what one wants to put on top of this or any other mountain, one should leave it as nature created it, not as suits your own interests.


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    #41
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,681 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    As opposed to the vandals, who seem to lack even the most emphatic understanding of the culture that there are wrecking by their wanton acts of destruction. It can either be tied in to other historical historical movements that sought to underpin their own truths by banishing others or perhaps liked to a Green movement that seeks purity by removing any human objects in the landscape.
    Either way the gross crowing of the PC brigades to the destruction of the Cross paints an unflattering image of the "toleration" they profess and shows a contemptible regard for tradition for such monuments.


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    BreadnBuddha wrote: »
    On the religion bit, say your prayers and grace. Go to confession. Take communion. Read the bible, the Quran, the Torah, whatever. Hangs a star of david, a crucifix or a pentagram on the wall of your house or tattooed on your neck if you want for all I care.

    I agree.

    Hence if the landowners want it back up, it's their decision. If they want it to stay down, it's their decision.


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    #43
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I agree.

    Hence if the landowners want it back up, it's their decision. If they want it to stay down, it's their decision.

    Which turns the conversation to point again towards land ownership, something I'm not going to get into here. We don't agree on that point, so let's accept that and move on.


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    #44
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,190 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Carrauntoohil isn't in a national park btw. I had no problem with the cross being there tbh and making something out of iron doesn't automatically mean it has no value in terms of heritage, the only difference between it and a monastic cross as far as I can see is it's a bit newer.

    Also there's plenty of remote mountains with crosses on top of them around Europe, as far as man made structures go they're not particularly intrusive imo. Having said that I wouldn't be bothered with re-erecting it, now it's gone it's gone. I agree with not putting things like this on mountains in this day and age but I don't agree with removing legitimate monuments from the past, which this was imo.


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    #45
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    BreadnBuddha wrote: »
    Which turns the conversation to point again towards land ownership, something I'm not going to get into here. We don't agree on that point, so let's accept that and move on.

    But there is nothing to not agree on! If you don't accept that it is privately owned, I'm afraid you are wrong. It is.

    Now of course the public may have various rights, there may even be a public right of way to the summit, I am not sure whether that's ever been tested. But that does not come with the right to tell the landowners what they can and cannot do with their lands. We are invitees on their land.

    It's their call.


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    #46
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Does anybody know what this cross was specifically for? Was it just a general statement "we're christians here, look we put up a cross"?


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    #47
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    Manach wrote: »
    As opposed to the vandals, who seem to lack even the most emphatic understanding of the culture that there are wrecking by their wanton acts of destruction. It can either be tied in to other historical historical movements that sought to underpin their own truths by banishing others or perhaps liked to a Green movement that seeks purity by removing any human objects in the landscape.

    Who offended first? Who deserves to claim the erection of their monuments to be right and fair? At what point did the tables turn for Christians to start adopting this approach? After millenia of oppression and destruction of those with differing beliefs to their own? Are you trying to make this a religious discussion or are we talking about a bunch of people who claim the right to put a hideous monstrosity atop a mountain in the idyllic setting of the reeks?

    I make it about the latter, you make it about the former.
    Manach wrote: »
    Either way the gross crowing of the PC brigades to the destruction of the Cross paints an unflattering image of the "toleration" they profess and shows a contemptible regard for tradition for such monuments.

    It's interesting that you raise the point of wrecking through wanton acts of destruction, then flop onto the 'green' and 'pc' limp wristed slap of someone with little valid perspective of the world in which you live.

    It has little to do with Green or any other movement, nor with political correctness. You raise tolerance, but I suggest that it's the shrinking Christian populace who wish all others to show tolerance, including permitting the erection of monuments to their own faith in places that should be unspoiled for ALL to enjoy.


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    #48
    Smartly Dressed
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Smartly Dressed


    Manach wrote: »
    As opposed to the vandals, who seem to lack even the most emphatic understanding of the culture that there are wrecking by their wanton acts of destruction. It can either be tied in to other historical historical movements that sought to underpin their own truths by banishing others or perhaps liked to a Green movement that seeks purity by removing any human objects in the landscape.
    Either way the gross crowing of the PC brigades to the destruction of the Cross paints an unflattering image of the "toleration" they profess and shows a contemptible regard for tradition for such monuments.

    Many would find it difficult to summon up an emphatic understanding of a culture that led to this country being viciously Catholic since gaining independence from Britain - and the time at which this cross was erected coincides with that period.

    You make it sound like having serious misgivings about a religious symbol directly associated with an institution that oppressed, assaulted and raped the people of this country is just shallow political correctness for the sake of trying to claim some moral high ground.

    Maybe those points are extreme but they certainly aren't exaggerated.


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    #49
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I really hope they find the lads who did it...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...and get them to work on wind turbines...


    ahh now turbines at least do something


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    #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    ahh now turbines at least do something

    The love of the Good Lord Jesus electrifies the soul maaaaaaaan!


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    #51
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    ahh now turbines at least do something

    It could be argued that both rely to some degree on the presence of a large amount of hot air in proximity to have effect ....


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    #52
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Smartly Dressed wrote: »
    moral high ground
    I see what you did there. I think. :)


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    #53
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,681 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Personally I'd make it about your utter ignorance of history. It would seem to be too measured to the natural. Instead it betokens an open mind which any slight, fancy or odd notion has alighted on it. Religion build communities.
    The natural landscape of Ireland has been shaped by the culture of the people. This has in large part been a Catholic tradition. The shaping of such allows the current generation to enjoy such, without having a jot of understanding in cases such of yours how it come to be. A tablua rasa.
    Instead of a respect for traditional bedrocks of rural Ireland, the precedence of this is having roving bands of Mao-like culture warriors seeking to "improve" the landscape by removing "foreign" objects.


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    #54
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Manach wrote: »
    Personally I'd make it about your utter ignorance of history. It would seem to be too measured to the natural. Instead it betokens an open mind which any slight, fancy or odd notion has alighted on it. Religion build communities.
    The natural landscape of Ireland has been shaped by the culture of the people. This has in large part been a Catholic tradition. The shaping of such allows the current generation to enjoy such, without having a jot of understanding in cases such of yours how it come to be. A tablua rasa.
    Instead of a respect for traditional bedrocks of rural Ireland, the precedence of this is having roving bands of Mao-like culture warriors seeking to "improve" the landscape by removing "foreign" objects.

    the church was not dominant in Ireland until the British built Maynooth, and after that it served to reinforce british rule, so if erecting crosses is to be classed as a celebration of history you are saying you want to celebrate british rule?

    I don't give a toss about a cross on a mountain but don't call others ignorant of history because they disagree with you.

    also don't insult rural Ireland like that, we danced at Lughnasa for years much to the scorn of priests :P


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    #55
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    Manach wrote: »
    Personally I'd make it about your utter ignorance of history. It would seem to be too measured to the natural. Instead it betokens an open mind which any slight, fancy or odd notion has alighted on it. Religion build communities.
    The natural landscape of Ireland has been shaped by the culture of the people. This has in large part been a Catholic tradition. The shaping of such allows the current generation to enjoy such, without having a jot of understanding in cases such of yours how it come to be. A tablua rasa.
    Instead of a respect for traditional bedrocks of rural Ireland, the precedence of this is having roving bands of Mao-like culture warriors seeking to "improve" the landscape by removing "foreign" objects.

    Catholic traditions have certainly shaped Ireland, as many of us know only too well. I'll simply state that there's more harm comes to mind that good.

    You're quite obviously coming at this from the position of a faithful catholic. I mean no offense to you but I'm not engaging any further with you on this. Consider it a victory if you will, but I know better. If you were Jesus Christ himself and welded those bits of metal together using nothing but the power of the holy spirit to create an arc, I'd still applaud the next man to take his hacksaw to your crucifix on a mountain top.


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    #56
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,681 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Smartly Dressed wrote: »
    You make it sound like having serious misgivings about a religious symbol directly associated with an institution that oppressed, assaulted and raped the people of this country is just shallow political correctness for the sake of trying to claim some moral high ground.
    The failings of the Church were many in that period. The successes of the Church in attempting to maintain some type of social structure going in what could have easily been a failled state, to be a bulwark against the call of totalitarians against both wings of right/left, and providing at least some measure of support to poorer Irish people are conveniently forgotten in you diatribe. Having a knowledge both of the history and legal institutions of Ireland is instructive, I'd recommend it for you at some stage.


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    #57
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,681 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    BreadnBuddha wrote: »
    Catholic traditions have certainly shaped Ireland, as many of us know only too well. I'll simply state that there's more harm comes to mind that good.

    You're quite obviously coming at this from the position of a faithful catholic. I mean no offense to you but I'm not engaging any further with you on this. .
    No hard feelings and you presented your arguments well, even if I disagreed with them. Likewise taking a break from posting on this topic.


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    #58
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,680 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    BreadnBuddha wrote: »
    Which turns the conversation to point again towards land ownership, something I'm not going to get into here. We don't agree on that point, so let's accept that and move on.
    Ah come on, landownership and rights of way have far more to do with the outdoor pursuits forum than discussions on religion and historical merit.


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    #59
    Smartly Dressed
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Smartly Dressed


    Manach wrote: »
    Personally I'd make it about your utter ignorance of history. It would seem to be too measured to the natural. Instead it betokens an open mind which any slight, fancy or odd notion has alighted on it. Religion build communities.
    The natural landscape of Ireland has been shaped by the culture of the people. This has in large part been a Catholic tradition. The shaping of such allows the current generation to enjoy such, without having a jot of understanding in cases such of yours how it come to be. A tablua rasa.
    Instead of a respect for traditional bedrocks of rural Ireland, the precedence of this is having roving bands of Mao-like culture warriors seeking to "improve" the landscape by removing "foreign" objects.

    We will one day be history, and our history will be as important as those gone before us. That's why I don't want our natural landscapes figuratively dominated by a symbol with one hell of a bad track record.

    Religion certainly did build communities. In the period around the time that cross was erected, religion built communities that made it impossible for young women like Ann Lovett to be open about her pregnancy and seek support. A community that that did the same to Joanne Hayes, and even provided the platform for a bias against her that led Gardaí to coercing her into admitting to murdering a baby. Or the national community that tried to stop a 14 year old girl from having an abortion following her becoming pregnant after being raped.

    But I guess this history isn't important.

    I won't say any more on this. (I should mention I'm not trying to claim "victory" here. We're just not going to go very far with this debate)

    And I will add that I don't have a problem with people who are religious.


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    #60
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Ah come on, landownership and rights of way have far more to do with the outdoor pursuits forum than discussions on religion and historical merit.

    Perhaps they do, but this discussion is about a cross being cut down on Carrauntoohil. The one thing I will say is that the 'landowners' of Carrauntoohil had a chance many years ago to protect the Devils Ladder from the level of erosion we see today, with heavily weighted funding from the state, and chose not to as it would have involved spending something themselves. Their ownership doesn't extend to stewardship, not by any standards and I have my own opinions on how exactly that should be addressed, but here is most certainly not the place for it.

    I'm not getting into a discussion about something as emotive and divisive as land ownership in the Republic of Ireland in general or this particular location in specific. That there is a whole other can of worms and nothing good can come of it, bar your entertainment and fuel for others fires.


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    #61
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Manach wrote: »
    The natural landscape of Ireland has been shaped by the culture of the people. This has in large part been a Catholic tradition.
    Huh? If it's shaped by culture it isn't natural. And what's so special about Catholicism that any other religion (or none) wouldn't have done the exact same?
    You do know the pagans did lots of this shaping stuff too?


This discussion has been closed.
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