cross on Carrauntoohil cut down

riffmongous

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Perhaps they do, but this discussion is about a cross being cut down on Carrauntoohil. The one thing I will say is that the 'landowners' of Carrauntoohil had a chance many years ago to protect the Devils Ladder from the level of erosion we see today, with heavily weighted funding from the state, and chose not to as it would have involved spending something themselves. Their ownership doesn't extend to stewardship, not by any standards and I have my own opinions on how exactly that should be addressed, but here is most certainly not the place for it.

I'm not getting into a discussion about something as emotive and divisive as land ownership in the Republic of Ireland in general or this particular location in specific. That there is a whole other can of worms and nothing good can come of it, bar your entertainment and fuel for others fires.

I'm probably heading towards backseat moderating here so I wont say anymore but there hasn't even been a claim of religious motivation for it yet though, so for now it's just a case of vandalism of private property on one of Irelands most important walks and imo the outdoor pursuits forum should focus on the aspects surrounding that and ownership/rights of way than another endless religion debate which would be better suited to the christianity/atheism forums (especially since the after hours thread on it was locked).

I think the installation of the new footbridges (which I actually don't agree with since crossing the stream is one of my favourite memories of the mountain) points towards a policy of making the mountain more accesible and I hope that this vandalism does nothing to change that

Pat Mustard

robp wrote: »

You really are a parody of yourself.

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I'm getting a smell of Uppity Holy Joe off the soles of your boots, as you ride by on your oul' high horse there too.

Mod:

Attack the post, not the poster. Please tone it down.

BreadnBuddha

The Mustard wrote: »

Mod:

Attack the post, not the poster. Please tone it down.

Done. Sorry.

W1ll1s

Just a couple of things;

1-I would guess that was one very heavy cross, it could have really done damage to someone when falling :-/.

2-Give it 70% it or another one goes back up...!

BreadnBuddha

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

The one thing I will say is that the 'landowners' of Carrauntoohil had a chance many years ago to protect the Devils Ladder from the level of erosion we see today, with heavily weighted funding from the state, and chose not to as it would have involved spending something themselves.

I wouldn't expect farmers to have to pay to facilitate others accessing their lands. I'm just glad we can!

And even if they were of a mind to, their insurers and solicitors would quickly point out that that may rule out defences under the occupier's liability act, where liability may be incurred in cases where the landowner modifies his land. It's now contained in Section 2 of the 1995 Act.

I don't disagree that the cross was ugly, I wouldn't equate it with some ancient monument and it may be a bit much in this day and age to be putting up crosses. It they are against putting it back up then imo it's their decision.

BarryD

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Again, well done that man with the Makita.

Just curious, how do you know it was a Makita that done it???!!! We'll await your answer with interest

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Does anybody know what this cross was specifically for? Was it just a general statement "we're christians here, look we put up a cross"?

Did I read that it replaced an earlier wooden cross? If so, there's at least a good chance that the original was erected for the Marian Year in 1954, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_in_Ireland and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_year

So that'd make it the 60th anniversary, if that's relevant..

A good many of the hillside crosses and shrines that you'll encounter around the country were raised in 1954 in honour of the Blessed Virgin and the church etc.

If you look at it like that, these are mementos of a different Ireland - I don't think anyone would be too keen on new crosses being raised on Irish mountain tops. But these were the work of an older generation and deserving of respect and tolerance for that alone.

robp

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Huh? If it's shaped by culture it isn't natural.

Precisely the point. Its cultural landscape and has been since people arrived here. The idea that you can cut down x monument and make it wild is nonsense. Even the plants growing there are a result of people.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And what's so special about Catholicism that any other religion (or none) wouldn't have done the exact same?
You do know the pagans did lots of this shaping stuff too?

Yes and for this reason we have legislation in place to protect monuments on hilltops irrespective of the tradition. I have condemned and acted on damage to pre-Christian monuments elsewhere in Ireland on past occasions. Buddhist, pre-Christian or Christian the same rule applies.

Irish legislation does not have a cut off point as a 20th cen object/monument may be no less meaningful then something from a remote period in time.

On this thread those who have defended the law of the land have been referred by abusive terms. That is not right.

Dan_Solo

BarryD wrote: »

Did I read that it replaced an earlier wooden cross? If so, there's at least a good chance that the original was erected for the Marian Year in 1954, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_in_Ireland and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_year

So that'd make it the 60th anniversary, if that's relevant..

Well that could tell us when it went up, but not really what the actual purpose of it is, other than to say "look, we're Christians". It just seems a bit odd... look, there's a mountain, let's put cross on it.

catallus

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well that could tell us when it went up, but not really what the actual purpose of it is, other than to say "look, we're Christians". It just seems a bit odd... look, there's a mountain, let's put cross on it.

What's odd about it, exactly?

DublinDilbert

W1ll1s wrote: »

Just a couple of things;

1-I would guess that was one very heavy cross, it could have really done damage to someone when falling :-/.

I'd be going for metal fatigue, clearly very few people here have ever tried to cut side ways with 12" petrol grider/con saw. It is actually much harder than it looks, the weight, vibration, sparks, forces etc... Also i'm not sure if a 2 stroke engine like that would run for very long on its side.

The cut looks very close to the ground and far too neat. When using a grinder like that there's no way you'd make cuts so neat without even a scratch to the paint above below. The cuts wouldn't line up at the corners. It would be a series of cuts needed to get that down. I've cut out 4" cast iron waste pipe, it wasn't just one cut and it wasn't very neat. If it was vandalism they are the neatest vandals I've ever seen.

I'm not sure how you would cut this without it falling on top of you as your crouched at the base.

If you look at where the section is fractured, its just below the plate which is used to rivet the two sections together, below the bottom rivet. Probably stress cracks in the material for a period of time. The section broke where the forces would be the highest in the material and very close to the ground.

Dan_Solo

catallus wrote: »

What's odd about it, exactly?

I just thought "hey lads, let's put a cross up on that mountain!" sounds a bit silly. If there was some history of a saint visiting there or a tragedy I could see some point.
Yes, it signifies Christianity, but what exactly is the message? Here be Christians?

catallus

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, it signifies Christianity, but what exactly is the message? Here be Christians?

How about: "Here. Be Christians."

I didn't think the cross was ugly and was glad to see it at times.
There aren't that many crosses on Irish mountains, compared to say Austria or the South Tyrol, there it's very common to see crosses on mountain tops, and often shrines on mountain trails or passes.
I remember climbing to the top of a mountain in the Dolomites a few years ago to find a Mass in progress when I reached the summit.

fits

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well that could tell us when it went up, but not really what the actual purpose of it is, other than to say "look, we're Christians". It just seems a bit odd... look, there's a mountain, let's put cross on it.

One could possibly find it amusing that someone could spend a day up the mountains and need to be reminded of god's presence there...(if that way inclined).

The cross on carauntoohil didn't offend me particularly. They are certainly reminders of a religious zeal which most of us are happy to leave in the past, but not necessarily whitewash.

MysticalRain

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I just thought "hey lads, let's put a cross up on that mountain!" sounds a bit silly. If there was some history of a saint visiting there or a tragedy I could see some point.
Yes, it signifies Christianity, but what exactly is the message? Here be Christians?

Out of the way places that are close to nature tend to feel oddly spiritual and otherworldly. Crosses or religious monuments are often placed at a prominent location to act as a focal point for people's feelings. There's also a grotto with a statue of the virgin Mary on the summit of a nearby mountain which illustrates the same point, and actually fits in quite well with the landscape (no doubt somebody will also try to vandalise that someday as well). Now that might sound like a load of codswallop to the average atheist, and I would probably agree with that notion myself if I hadn't visited these places many times on various climbing trips. But that's human nature for you.

Most people who are from the area, including non-believers like myself, quite rightly see this as an egregious act for someone to go in there and commit an act of vandalism against a religious monument just because they have a grudge against the Catholic Church. They might be targeting the CC, but they are also giving the two fingers to the private land owners and the community who put it there, and enjoyed it's cultural significance (assuming it wasn't metal fatigue, or vandalism for the sake of it).

I really wish the people here rejoicing in the crosses destruction would actually take a trip up these mountains some time to see these places for themselves. I don't feel like any less of an atheist for having visited these places myself. But I at least have a more nuanced, and less dogmatic view of these things for having done so.

Dan_Solo

MysticalRain wrote: »

Out of the way places that are close to nature tend to feel oddly spiritual and otherworldly. Crosses or religious monuments are often placed at a prominent location to act as a focal point for people's feelings.

If they are already spiritual locations, what's the cross for?

Mickeroo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If they are already spiritual locations, what's the cross for?

What's any monument for? They don't tend to have a practical application.

Dan_Solo

Mickeroo wrote: »

What's any monument for? They don't tend to have a practical application.

Monuments are dedicated to remembrance of a particular event usually, and normally somewhere near where the event happened.
Jesus happened somewhere else doesn't seem like much of a reason for a cross on top of a mountain. I don't know if Christians would necessarily agree that a cross is a monument either.

fits

Btw, wouldn't it be 100 times easier to just spell it as gaeilge. The English version spelled makes no sense. Corráin Tuathail at least follows language rules.

jank

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Good riddance I say, and may the man with the grinder wet his boots on a few more summits around the island before he hangs up his power tools.

[<snip> Be careful what you post, please.] As I said, you may not like it but you have no authority or mandate to cut it down. If you wanted to get rid of it, then get a mandate. Otherwise you are just advocating criminal behavior. I bet you claim to see yourself as 'tolerant' as well.... lol

jank

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You do know the pagans did lots of this shaping stuff too?

Yes, so whats your point.
Take New Grange for example. Do people think we should demolish it as its not natural?

How about Dun-Aonghasa




Or Dolemans at the Burren?



I doubt that so called 'Jesus Freaks' would be happy if someone went out and vandalized these places or any other pre-christian site. The country is dotted with fairy forts for example. Would you support their destruction and if not why? Why then do you take glee from destroying a monument that was not yours and indeed was on private land?

I posted already in this thread about the dangers of cleansing the land of religious iconography. This is done in the name of freedom and tolerance but is actually intolerant and authoritarian.

shruikan2553

Do we actually have any idea who did it? People seem quick to jump on the atheists are coming to destroy anything religious but I dont recall hearing of anything like this happening before.

Could have been Irish Water protestors or Enda for all we know.

If they are going to replace it I hope they pick something a bit more eye pleasing like a stone celtic cross rather than a metal eye sore.

thegreatgonzo

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If they are going to replace it I hope they pick something a bit more eye pleasing like a stone celtic cross rather than a metal eye sore.

A few people have said this and up close yes it looks plain and rusty. But it looked great as you approached the summit , it stood out from the mist fog and guided your way for the last 20 mins of the climb. I hope they put it back.

Pat Mustard

Mod:

I'd ask people to stop insulting other posters. Nobody needs to be clocking up infractions.

Accusing other posters of being criminals is not acceptable.

BreadnBuddha

jank wrote: »

[<snip> Be careful what you post, please.] As I said, you may not like it but you have no authority or mandate to cut it down. If you wanted to get rid of it, then get a mandate. Otherwise you are just advocating criminal behavior. I bet you claim to see yourself as 'tolerant' as well.... lol

I didn't cut it down. I don't advocate criminal behaviour. I simply applaud the party who took it upon themselves to cut it down.

You don't hear people still lamenting the destruction of Nelsons Pillar in '66 as it is something else that shouldn't have remained as a part of the living landscape, and was removed in time.

That cross was no work of art, nor are the many others that blight the tops of hills and mountains across the island. All of them should be removed, and not replaced with another cross or anything else.

justback83

Smartly Dressed wrote: »

We will one day be history, and our history will be as important as those gone before us. That's why I don't want our natural landscapes figuratively dominated by a symbol with one hell of a bad track record.

Religion certainly did build communities. In the period around the time that cross was erected, religion built communities that made it impossible for young women like Ann Lovett to be open about her pregnancy and seek support. A community that that did the same to Joanne Hayes, and even provided the platform for a bias against her that led Gardaí to coercing her into admitting to murdering a baby. Or the national community that tried to stop a 14 year old girl from having an abortion following her becoming pregnant after being raped.

But I guess this history isn't important.

I won't say any more on this. (I should mention I'm not trying to claim "victory" here. We're just not going to go very far with this debate)

And I will add that I don't have a problem with people who are religious.

One of the most logical posts I've read today!!

Grudaire

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I didn't cut it down. I don't advocate criminal behaviour. I simply applaud the party who took it upon themselves to cut it down.

The line is thin between those two things. You are applauding thoughtless illegal behaviour.

The fact of the matter is that if someone has a problem with a cross/anything they should approach it in the correct manner. Have an open debate on the merits of keeping and removing and get permission from the land owners. Start a petition and see what demand is like.

What has happened is that an individual/group (may) have taken an executive decision on their own to cut this cross with no consideration for others. The last thing Ireland needs is rogue vigilante eijits roaming the countryside attacking monuments they don't like.

BarryD

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I'd be going for metal fatigue, clearly very few people here have ever tried to cut side ways with 12" petrol grider/con saw. It is actually much harder than it looks, the weight, vibration, sparks, forces etc... Also i'm not sure if a 2 stroke engine like that would run for very long on its side.

The cut looks very close to the ground and far too neat. When using a grinder like that there's no way you'd make cuts so neat without even a scratch to the paint above below. The cuts wouldn't line up at the corners. It would be a series of cuts needed to get that down. I've cut out 4" cast iron waste pipe, it wasn't just one cut and it wasn't very neat. If it was vandalism they are the neatest vandals I've ever seen.

I'm not sure how you would cut this without it falling on top of you as your crouched at the base.

If you look at where the section is fractured, its just below the plate which is used to rivet the two sections together, below the bottom rivet. Probably stress cracks in the material for a period of time. The section broke where the forces would be the highest in the material and very close to the ground.

Yes, the break does look very square, doesn't it. Having felled a few trees, you soon learn to have respect for heavy objects when you try to bring them down! You'd also be inclined I think to make the initial cuts lower on the side you wanted it to fall or make a slanting cut in that direction to assist gravity? But others here seem convinced it was manually cut down, no smoke without fire etc.

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

You don't hear people still lamenting the destruction of Nelsons Pillar in '66 as it is something else that shouldn't have remained as a part of the living landscape, and was removed in time

Maybe you listen to the 'wrong' people BreadnBuddha - I often hear or read of people discussing old Dublin and lamenting the loss of the pillar Not for what it stood for, but for it's presence, the view from the top and it's handiness as a meeting place etc.

Alun

BarryD wrote: »

Yes, the break does look very square, doesn't it. Having felled a few trees, you soon learn to have respect for heavy objects when you try to bring them down! You'd also be inclined I think to make the initial cuts lower on the side you wanted it to fall or make a slanting cut in that direction to assist gravity?

I'm also starting to come to the conclusion it wasn't an act of vandalism, but rather simple metal fatigue. The cut is way too close to the base. If you were going up there to cut the thing down, you wouldn't go to all that trouble to cut so cleanly and so close to the base, assuming you could even get that close with whatever tool you were using.

Dan_Solo

Alun wrote: »

I'm also starting to come to the conclusion it wasn't an act of vandalism, but rather simple metal fatigue.

An act of god?
Wonder can they claim on the insurance.