Ireland vs Australia match thread, Saturday 22nd Nov. KO 4:30PM

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Yes. And that player in the middle (Foley or Speight) would not have scored as they were well covered with Irish defenders. It was Phipps coming across out of Zebo's vision line (since he was looking in Sexton's direction), who made a great grab and run. Sexton maybe was a fraction too forward as well.

Why don't you just admire great piece of skill from Phipps?

It was foley who intercepted the ball to begin with. Zebo did not need to throw the 50-50 ball. Ireland had field position and possession. Zebo tried to be too clever and Ireland ended up under their own posts. I dont care how good Phipps was to get there because it was an ireland player who gave a needless easy turnover chance to the aussies.

CatFromHue

It wasn't terrible, it just wasn't very good.

clsmooth

aimee1 wrote: »

It was foley who intercepted the ball to begin with. Zebo did not need to throw the 50-50 ball. Ireland had field position and possession. Zebo tried to be too clever and Ireland ended up under their own posts. I dont care how good Phipps was to get there because it was an ireland player who gave a needless easy turnover chance to the aussies.

I think everyone would be in agreement with that, even Zebo. Schmidt will definitely have a field day with that one. We were lucky to he 17-0 up and at the start of the game, but if that happens 50 mins in during a tight game, that's the losing of it.

jm08

clsmooth wrote: »

It was a terrible piece of decision making by Zebo. I think we all agree on that. Phillips took the try superbly after the initial error left the Irish defence flat footed.

If it is terrible decision making, I think Sexton has to share the blame since he was screaming for the pass.

jm08

clsmooth wrote: »

I think everyone would be in agreement with that, even Zebo. Schmidt will definitely have a field day with that one. We were lucky to he 17-0 up and at the start of the game, but if that happens 50 mins in during a tight game, that's the losing of it.

On 'The Business' yesterday morning (RTE1 radio), when talking about management, leadership, motivation etc. they told a story about Schmidt in his early Leinster days doing his video analysis. Darcy had thrown a poor pass to BOD which resulted in a turnover.

Instead of having a go at Darcy for the poor pass, he said to BOD that he should have made a greater effort to get the pass. BOD admitted that he should have done better.

basillarkin

How many line breaks did henshaw make yesterday? Doesn't look like a lad that can get through a gap or make a defender miss on a regular basis.

Clearlier

basillarkin wrote: »

How many line breaks did henshaw make yesterday? Doesn't look like a lad that can get through a gap or make a defender miss on a regular basis.

You need to give him a bit of time. BOD had a few quiet games before he settled in at international level and there was a lot more space to exploit then than there is now. I don't know what level Henshaw will reach but he's certainly an international quality centre.

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

If it is terrible decision making, I think Sexton has to share the blame since he was screaming for the pass.

He was calling for it before it was cut off. Zebo held on too long; when he had the outside man fixed was when he should have passed, but instead he tried to get past two defenders before attempting the offload.

It's split second stuff, but when you're playing off a cut out pass, the ball has to move very quickly to the outside man if you're going to make the overlap work. We'll never know if it would have worked, but there were metres to be gained had the pass been made earlier.

Interested Observer

jm08 wrote: »

If it is terrible decision making, I think Sexton has to share the blame since he was screaming for the pass.

You keep saying this over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, but if you actually watch what happens and stop desperately trying to blame anyone and everything else, you can see Sexton is calling for the pass long before it actually comes, because the pass was actually on then. This isn't some static situation where the pass is either on or it isn't, because opposition players actually move about the pitch. When Zebo got the ball the pass was on. When Zebo threw his pass the pass wasn't on.

basillarkin

Clearlier wrote: »

You need to give him a bit of time. BOD had a few quiet games before he settled in at international level and there was a lot more space to exploit then than there is now. I don't know what level Henshaw will reach but he's certainly an international quality centre.

I hear Ya but I don't think he is an international quality centre yet, granted he played at 12 and 13 against two of the better teams in World Rugby and showed his versatitly at both positions but I don't think he has the required flair needed to be a top class 13. He certainly has the potential though.

wp_rathead

basillarkin wrote: »

How many line breaks did henshaw make yesterday? Doesn't look like a lad that can get through a gap or make a defender miss on a regular basis.

According to the ESPN stats only 3 Clean Line Breaks for Ireland- 2 for Bowe and 1 for Zebo.
Henshaw did beat 2 players- with only Zebo (on 3) beating more defenders.

clsmooth

jm08 wrote: »

If it is terrible decision making, I think Sexton has to share the blame since he was screaming for the pass.

Although you said that the lineout problems v SA were Cronins fault and not POC's fault who was screaming the calls..

jm08 wrote: »

On 'The Business' yesterday morning (RTE1 radio), when talking about management, leadership, motivation etc. they told a story about Schmidt in his early Leinster days doing his video analysis. Darcy had thrown a poor pass to BOD which resulted in a turnover.

Instead of having a go at Darcy for the poor pass, he said to BOD that he should have made a greater effort to get the pass. BOD admitted that he should have done better.

Clearly then Sexton should have made more of an effort to reach his hands around Foley to collect the speculative off load.

Interested Observer

Henshaw is doing his basics and making his reads in defence, which is actually far more important than making linebreaks for him at the moment. And tbh with D'Arcy having such a mediocre game inside him he never really had any time or space on the ball.

Clearlier

basillarkin wrote: »

I hear Ya but I don't think he is an international quality centre yet, granted he played at 12 and 13 against two of the better teams in World Rugby and showed his versatitly at both positions but I don't think he has the required flair needed to be a top class 13. He certainly has the potential though.

Given your last comment I'm guessing that you're saying that he hasn't demonstrated the required flair rather than he hasn't got it? I don't see him play for Connacht - that may be a good guide as to his strengths and weaknesses in attack. OTOH he may not have the quality inside him there that BOD had at Leinster in his early days (Farrell and Horgan IIRC).

IMO he's at a much higher level than BOD was as a defender although I suspect that a lot of this is down to the guidance that he has received from BOD. In the end if we have nothing else he's a decent size who can do a bit of damage on a crash ball. Hope he has more than that - don't really want to go down the Maggs/Henderson route (although Henderson was a better ball player than he was given credit for). The kick against South Africa hints at a certain quality that could serve him well.

Clegg

Clearlier wrote: »

Given your last comment I'm guessing that you're saying that he hasn't demonstrated the required flair rather than he hasn't got it? I don't see him play for Connacht - that may be a good guide as to his strengths and weaknesses in attack. OTOH he may not have the quality inside him there that BOD had at Leinster in his early days (Farrell and Horgan IIRC).

IMO he's at a much higher level than BOD was as a defender although I suspect that a lot of this is down to the guidance that he has received from BOD. In the end if we have nothing else he's a decent size who can do a bit of damage on a crash ball. Hope he has more than that - don't really want to go down the Maggs/Henderson route (although Henderson was a better ball player than he was given credit for). The kick against South Africa hints at a certain quality that could serve him well.

Do you mean in BoD's last few seasons as a pro? If so then I'd agree with you. He was getting done for pace and conceded lots of yards in the tackle. BoD from 23-30 though is a completely different matter. Was the most ferocious tackler I've ever seen from an outside back. Read his channel perfectly and didn't concede ground. Henshaw has a long way to go yet.

basillarkin

BOD could read the game like no other, one of the best defenders in the game, knew when to hold, when to push and when to shoot up out of the line

Clearlier

Clegg wrote: »

Do you mean in BoD's last few seasons as a pro? If so then I'd agree with you. He was getting done for pace and conceded lots of yards in the tackle. BoD from 23-30 though is a completely different matter. Was the most ferocious tackler I've ever seen from an outside back. Read his channel perfectly and didn't concede ground. Henshaw has a long way to go yet.

Could have been clearer there!

I was comparing them at an equivalent stage in their international careers, i.e. when BOD had just broken through. At that stage he didn't have any fear (I sometimes thought that D'arcy may have been genuinely intimidated) but his judgement was a bit suspect. He subsequently went on to redefine the role of the 13 as a defender but right at the start of his career he was no great shakes.

jm08

rrpc wrote: »

He was calling for it before it was cut off. Zebo held on too long; when he had the outside man fixed was when he should have passed, but instead he tried to get past two defenders before attempting the offload.

It's split second stuff, but when you're playing off a cut out pass, the ball has to move very quickly to the outside man if you're going to make the overlap work. We'll never know if it would have worked, but there were metres to be gained had the pass been made earlier.

Yes he was. Since he had a full view of Phipps coming in (and he overran Phipps as well), perhaps he could have held back a bit to be able to tackle Phipps if the pass went astray.

So now you are saying that the pass should have been made earlier!

BoardsMember

I wonder how our play in attack will change over the next while, during the 6 nations, and then in the lead up to the world cup. While it was a great win, and a fantastic defensive effort, you couldn't say that we played too well in attack. I wonder will the ambition for off loads increase, will we take more ball wide early, does Joe see our approach to attacking play becoming more varied and ambitious. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to watch us play like this, and continue to get good results. But I wonder will we be easier to design a game plan against as people see us. I'm no authority of the game and probably a lot of the technical stuff goes over my head, I know Joe "desings" clever game plans to help us beat oppositions, but it seems all to be based on a core of simple things done well. I wonder will that evolve over the next 4-6 games.

clsmooth

jm08 wrote: »

Yes he was. Since he had a full view of Phipps coming in (and he overran Phipps as well), perhaps he could have held back a bit to be able to tackle Phipps if the pass went astray.

So now you are saying that the pass should have been made earlier!

And you're saying that Sexton should have known that Zebo was going to make a poor decision and gift the ball to the Aussies.

clsmooth

BoardsMember wrote: »

I wonder how our play in attack will change over the next while, during the 6 nations, and then in the lead up to the world cup. While it was a great win, and a fantastic defensive effort, you couldn't say that we played too well in attack. I wonder will the ambition for off loads increase, will we take more ball wide early, does Joe see our approach to attacking play becoming more varied and ambitious. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to watch us play like this, and continue to get good results. But I wonder will we be easier to design a game plan against as people see us. I'm no authority of the game and probably a lot of the technical stuff goes over my head, I know Joe "desings" clever game plans to help us beat oppositions, but it seems all to be based on a core of simple things done well. I wonder will that evolve over the next 4-6 games.

Good point. I was thinking the same. I'd be of the thinking that he'll try to expand the game plan to involve more off loading etc but first off he's concentrating on getting the basics nailed, and once that's second nature (it must be close to that now) he'll look at adding in some other parts rather than overloading the players with too much (some say the reason for losing last year to Australia, too much information). He'll want to peak for the WC, and not before hand like happened in 07. Historically he has a good record of getting Leinster to peak for the big knock out games in Europe. In Joe we trust.

Clearlier

clsmooth wrote: »

Good point. I was thinking the same. I'd be of the thinking that he'll try to expand the game plan to involve more off loading etc but first off he's concentrating on getting the basics nailed, and once that's second nature (it must be close to that now) he'll look at adding in some other parts rather than overloading the players with too much (some say the reason for losing last year to Australia, too much information). He'll want to peak for the WC, and not before hand like happened in 07. Historically he has a good record of getting Leinster to peak for the big knock out games in Europe. In Joe we trust.

It's not just offloading. We were very short of ideas in attack once we had gone past a few phases at the weekend, a lot of that was simply due to the Aussies hitting us behind the gain line so we couldn't generate momentum but I think it's risky to rely on having church and SOB available to carry come the world cup, we need to think of a few other strategies to make ground if we might not have the carriers capable of bashing their way through.

Fireball07

While yesterday was a great win, the defending in the first half cannot ever be repeated. Australia were excellent but we were falling off tackles and missing them all over the shop.

Iirc, I saw Best, POM, Ruddock, Murray, Sexton, D'Arcy and Henshaw all miss tackles that you'd be expecting them to get. Most of those players did have really good games, but we were all over the place in the first half. It's great that we turned it around and put in a monumental defensive effort 2nd half but considering we were 17-0 up; we did need to calm it down. It just shows that we're still well off where we need to be and that's encouraging in itself.

I think every player contributed something important and showed why they were in the team, even those who did poor things also. I think it would be harsh to blame Zebo for the 1st try, the offload was on, and we missed 3 tackles in the immediate aftermath. He also saved a certain try with a brilliant shoot-up tackle. Bowe did the same, and turned that into an intercept try. Small margins though. Foley missed easy kicks aswell. Kearney has never been a great tackler one-on-one but made a few great tackles yesterday. Missed a couple too but it's never been his strong point. He and Henshaw were class.

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

Yes he was. Since he had a full view of Phipps coming in (and he overran Phipps as well), perhaps he could have held back a bit to be able to tackle Phipps if the pass went astray.

So now you are saying that the pass should have been made earlier!

Now? Are you confusing me with somebody else?

I am saying he should have passed earlier, yes. No 'now' about it. His other alternative was to take the tackle and recycle, but the play was clearly to exploit the narrowness of the defence.

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

Yes he was. Since he had a full view of Phipps coming in (and he overran Phipps as well), perhaps he could have held back a bit to be able to tackle Phipps if the pass went astray.

So now you are saying that the pass should have been made earlier!

Wait now...what should Sexton have done here as he was the one at fault.

1. Called too early for the pass
2. Shouldn't have called for the pass
3. Wasn't in position to receive the off load
4. Over ran and made it too difficult for Zebo
5. Held back the run "just incase Zebo made a balls of the pass and Phipps took it"
6. Should have been watching the ball better
7. Should have been watching the opposition better
8. Should have ran a better line for Zebo

Just a bit confused as to what Sexton did wrong in the split second of the game to allow Zebo's pass not to stick.

Maybe Joe should drop Sexton to teach him a lesson about when to shout and when not to shout on the pitch.

The Aviva is weird. You could here a pin drop for most the game.

twinytwo

Fireball07 wrote: »

While yesterday was a great win, the defending in the first half cannot ever be repeated. Australia were excellent but we were falling off tackles and missing them all over the shop.

Iirc, I saw Best, POM, Ruddock, Murray, Sexton, D'Arcy and Henshaw all miss tackles that you'd be expecting them to get. Most of those players did have really good games, but we were all over the place in the first half. It's great that we turned it around and put in a monumental defensive effort 2nd half but considering we were 17-0 up; we did need to calm it down. It just shows that we're still well off where we need to be and that's encouraging in itself.

I think every player contributed something important and showed why they were in the team, even those who did poor things also. I think it would be harsh to blame Zebo for the 1st try, the offload was on, and we missed 3 tackles in the immediate aftermath. He also saved a certain try with a brilliant shoot-up tackle. Bowe did the same, and turned that into an intercept try. Small margins though. Foley missed easy kicks aswell. Kearney has never been a great tackler one-on-one but made a few great tackles yesterday. Missed a couple too but it's never been his strong point. He and Henshaw were class.

It was a 50/50 pass.... it didnt happen, another day he might have got it away... people need to more on

I can only assume Zebo's attempt at an offload for their first try has been discussed for 20 pages with a particular sect blaming everyone but him... Kearney should have tackled Phipps but I don't know how can you defend that offload. There was an Australian player directly in the way.

Molester Stallone II

twinytwo wrote: »

.. people need to more on

That typo almost ended up being spot on

freyners

Clearlier wrote: »

Given your last comment I'm guessing that you're saying that he hasn't demonstrated the required flair rather than he hasn't got it? I don't see him play for Connacht - that may be a good guide as to his strengths and weaknesses in attack. OTOH he may not have the quality inside him there that BOD had at Leinster in his early days (Farrell and Horgan IIRC).

IMO he's at a much higher level than BOD was as a defender although I suspect that a lot of this is down to the guidance that he has received from BOD. In the end if we have nothing else he's a decent size who can do a bit of damage on a crash ball. Hope he has more than that - don't really want to go down the Maggs/Henderson route (although Henderson was a better ball player than he was given credit for). The kick against South Africa hints at a certain quality that could serve him well.

Couple of examples i could give casting back through a few games, but this should give a decent indicator of what he can do. Hes well able to break a line but hes well able to manufacture one as well. (starts around 5.05)